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  1. #41
    Registered User cneill13's Avatar
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    Not to mention mice = ticks and Lyme disease.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...-the-northeast

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by PatmanTN View Post
    You consider sleeping on a platform leaving gear unprotected? How would you have protected your sleeping bag?
    Well, the results speak for themselves as to being unprotected.

    Not saying you should reasonably do anything different, just that you cant be mad at mice.... for being mice. Thats silly. They are only doing what Nature has programmed them to do.

    I often sleep in solo net tent in shelters for such reason though if not crowded. Keeps the mices away. Serenity is only marginally larger than bivy.

    And it fun to knock them off the net and have them go flying.

    In fact, after a run-in with a porcupine that was intent on snuggling, I use the net tent a lot more often. Not just for Skeeters anymore.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 01-25-2018 at 13:17.

  3. #43
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    They also hiked throughout the night and arrived at the shelter in the early morning to sleep, thus also avoiding the permit requirement.



    if a ranger comes by and sees one sleeping in the shelter during the day----they will still ask for a permit..........

    at least that has been my experience......

  4. #44
    Registered User soilman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatmanTN View Post
    lol, nah it's cool. This is the public internet. soilman doesn't know me and there is no way he could know that I've been hiking in the GSMNP for over half my life or that by my most conservative estimate I've hiked over 5000 miles in the park, or that I've checked off the 900 miler list twice or that I've hiked almost every historical manway that can be researched or that I've spent countless hours doing volunteer clean-up and trail maintenance there. I'm just as likely to judge people based on snippets of information as anyone. I get it.
    Patman, impressive creds. I did not intend to impugn your reputation. I just wanted to clarify to all readers that there are regulations in the park that need to be followed. There seems to be an increasing erosion of respect to authority when it comes to hiking and rules. The downside to this is increasing regulations. I have been hiking in the park for over 40 years and have been on the Rocky Top crew. I have no where close to the miles you have in the park.
    More walking, less talking.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by soilman View Post
    Patman, impressive creds. I did not intend to impugn your reputation. I just wanted to clarify to all readers that there are regulations in the park that need to be followed. There seems to be an increasing erosion of respect to authority when it comes to hiking and rules. The downside to this is increasing regulations. I have been hiking in the park for over 40 years and have been on the Rocky Top crew. I have no where close to the miles you have in the park.
    totally understood. I used to bristle at people throwing rules and regulations around but through many conversations and dialogues (and my own continuing maturation process) I've come to understand that most do so from a genuine heart for preservation. And drilling even further they often do so in efforts to get others to come in line with existing strictures simply so that no more rules and regulations are decreed. And of course I totally respect that.

    And admittedly, I'm not a very talented writer and clearly didn't do a good job conveying my sentiments.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    Well, the results speak for themselves as to being unprotected.

    Not saying you should reasonably do anything different, just that you cant be mad at mice.... for being mice. Thats silly. They are only doing what Nature has programmed them to do.

    I often sleep in solo net tent in shelters for such reason though if not crowded. Keeps the mices away. Serenity is only marginally larger than bivy.

    And it fun to knock them off the net and have them go flying.

    In fact, after a run-in with a porcupine that was intent on snuggling, I use the net tent a lot more often. Not just for Skeeters anymore.
    Ha! I gotcha. True enough. Intellectually I know it's silly to be mad at mice for being mice, but that didn't stop me from being mad. If knowledge equated to good decisions and behavior , my life could have taken many different turns.

    Wow, I've never had porcupine run-in. I bet that gets ones attention.

  7. #47
    Registered User Vanhalo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    They are only doing what Nature has programmed them to do..
    Nature has programmed the white footed mouse to be a harbinger of Lyme disease.

    I will never sleep in a shelter.
    Last edited by Vanhalo; 01-25-2018 at 14:57.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNhiker View Post
    if a ranger comes by and sees one sleeping in the shelter during the day----they will still ask for a permit..........
    at least that has been my experience......
    Simply possessing camping equipment in the back country implies that you are camping and therefore need a permit.

    A ranger once asked to see my permit while I was walking around the Clingman's Dome parking area with a back on my back.

    It's a subject that comes up regularly in JMT online groups. It's difficult to get a permit to hike the JMT starting from Happy Isle in YNP (the official start of the JMT). It's much easier to get a permit starting from Toulumne Meadows. When people see that it's less than 25 miles from Happy Isle to Toulumne, they talk about trying to hike that section as a day hike. In addition to being reminded that such a hike includes a 5,500' elevation change, they are also reminded that they can not carry their camping gear unless they have a camping permit.

  9. #49
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    A ranger once asked to see my permit while I was walking around the Clingman's Dome parking area with a back on my back.

    yeah....

    i had a ranger ask for my permit at the turnaround at deep creek trailhead.....

    i was "legal" both times so i wasnt worried..

    however, what i didnt like was the ranger waking me up to see my permit..................and then come back 4 other times throughout the day to check my permit again.....

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
    Simply possessing camping equipment in the back country implies that you are camping and therefore need a permit.

    A ranger once asked to see my permit while I was walking around the Clingman's Dome parking area with a back on my back.

    It's a subject that comes up regularly in JMT online groups. It's difficult to get a permit to hike the JMT starting from Happy Isle in YNP (the official start of the JMT). It's much easier to get a permit starting from Toulumne Meadows. When people see that it's less than 25 miles from Happy Isle to Toulumne, they talk about trying to hike that section as a day hike. In addition to being reminded that such a hike includes a 5,500' elevation change, they are also reminded that they can not carry their camping gear unless they have a camping permit.
    Interesting, as this happened when I was a ridgerunner and discusses this after with my ATC supervisor. She said yes there is no permit required for sleeping in the shelter in the day, only at night. Now this is ATC, not the NPS, and not enforcement.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
    Simply possessing camping equipment in the back country implies that you are camping and therefore need a permit.

    A ranger once asked to see my permit while I was walking around the Clingman's Dome parking area with a back on my back. ....they are also reminded that they can not carry their camping gear unless they have a camping permit.
    [/quote]

    This may be their official stance, but it seems more for their convenience then reality of hiking and intent of hikers:

    IMHO having backpacking equipment should not by itself indicate intent as 1: Some carry overnight gear for day hikes as a precaution, I have several of them in the hiking groups I lead. 2:Could be a training hike, many hiker do this These 2 are two me totally reasonable and frequent enough where that rule should be questioned, I hope it is. I also will add 3: it has been demonstrated numerous times it is possible to hike through the entire park on the AT without stopping to sleep - This is usually trail running, but not out of the question to do from Fontana to Dome/NFG and/or Dome/NFG to Davenport in a continuous stretch. Needing the gear for the out of the park section either before or after. Now for most this won't be the case, but it is also a possibility.

    Additionally is not the permit system in place to make sure the shelters do not over fill (which would cause tenting, hanging and expand the area of impact.) and thus should not require a permit for day use of shelters. Again IMHO

  12. #52
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    Agreed Starchild. I am going to be dayhiking in the GSMNP in a couple weeks by myself. I will be carrying rudimentary gear (sleeping bag, mat, warm clothes, tarp, etc) in case I have to spend an unexpected overnight. And if they ask me for a permit (which I very much doubt) I will show them the email I sent my wife earlier that morning letting her know what my planned itinerary for the day is. Trying to get the last 90 miles marked off my map.... which means I have over 180 miles of hiking left....

  13. #53

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    This may be their official stance, but it seems more for their convenience then reality of hiking and intent of hikers:

    IMHO having backpacking equipment should not by itself indicate intent as 1: Some carry overnight gear for day hikes as a precaution, I have several of them in the hiking groups I lead. 2:Could be a training hike, many hiker do this These 2 are two me totally reasonable and frequent enough where that rule should be questioned, I hope it is. I also will add 3: it has been demonstrated numerous times it is possible to hike through the entire park on the AT without stopping to sleep - This is usually trail running, but not out of the question to do from Fontana to Dome/NFG and/or Dome/NFG to Davenport in a continuous stretch. Needing the gear for the out of the park section either before or after. Now for most this won't be the case, but it is also a possibility.

    Additionally is not the permit system in place to make sure the shelters do not over fill (which would cause tenting, hanging and expand the area of impact.) and thus should not require a permit for day use of shelters. Again IMHO
    There is some precedent for this type thing being policy elsewhere in national parks.

    Shenandoah has rules against use of camping equipment in daytime in day use only areas.

    Yosemite will ticket posssession of overnight equipment in backcountry without a valid permit.

    These policies no doubt in response to problems.

    I havent heard of gsmnp being restrictive , but they certainly can if it becomes problem.
    The rules are intended to limit impact by limiting traffic thru ordinary routes. Circumventing by many can be expected to lead to new rules or policy implementation in response.

    You only have to possess fishing gear on a boat to be ticketed for fishing without a license. You dont have to be caught fishing. Probable cause is enough. Some laws are explicitly worded to this extent to make enforcement easy. In TX its against law to carry wire cutters in glove box of truck. Want to guess how that came to be?
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 01-25-2018 at 17:24.

  14. #54
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    Circumventing by many can be expected to lead to new rules or policy implementation in response.



    ive been saying this for years now (especially cause i have seen some of the fallout from the new rules that they have put in place lately) but every year, there are threads about how not to stay in shelters in the Park, mainly during thru hiking season....

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by TNhiker View Post
    ive been saying this for years now (especially cause i have seen some of the fallout from the new rules that they have put in place lately) but every year, there are threads about how not to stay in shelters in the Park, mainly during thru hiking season....
    A good example is only a few years ago people were getting alternate Trailhead permits in Yosemite in order to access the JMT. Yosemite shut that down because the increase in traffic was having an impact and was noted. There are reasons behind policies and rules , they aren't just abstract. Somebody is checking if the intent is being satisfied

  16. #56
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    There are reasons behind policies and rules , they aren't just abstract


    this sums it up....

    and yet, the people who "fought" against the some of the recent new rules in the Smokys couldnt understand it.........nor could they understand they were the root of the problem......

  17. #57
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    Try this line of thought. If everyone that goes to the mountain brings home "1" rock how long before the mountain is gone?

  18. #58
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    Simple solution---Every town on the trail has stray cats.
    Place a stray cat or two at each shelter up and down the trail.
    Problem solved.

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by tawa View Post
    Simple solution---Every town on the trail has stray cats.
    Place a stray cat or two at each shelter up and down the trail.
    Problem solved.
    Cats are not indigenous to North America, and can be considered an invasive species. They also eat native birds, reptiles, amphibians and many other small animals.
    Formerly uhfox

    Springer to Bear Mountain Inn, NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by tawa View Post
    Simple solution---Every town on the trail has stray cats.
    Place a stray cat or two at each shelter up and down the trail.
    Problem solved.
    ha ha, then you'd end up with flea ridden cats peeing all over the place. Cat pee is the most vile substance known to man. Cat poop a close second.

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