ATC Removes Shuttle List

[gpburdelljr]

Sorry, but "the government" has better things to do than harass a handful of shuttle drivers, no matter how much in vogue it has become to harangue "the government." Fact is, such petty actions are often the machinations of some jealous competition.



While this is a popular refrain from the insurance industry and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, it's a canard, a myth, a lie in other words. We're not as litigious society these days as was the case back in the days of Revolutionary America. Studies on litigation filed show that more lawsuits were filed, per capita, in the past than today. Same for the size of jury awards.

Can you cite sources for your “facts”?

[greensleep]

Can you cite sources for your “facts”?

I believe it's a fact that 85% of facts are made up.

[SWODaddy]

I read on a Facebook AT group post yesterday that the ATC has removed the list of shuttle drivers available to hikers on the AT. I did check the ATC web site and found the transportation page still on the web site, but I could not find the direct link to the shuttle driver list. The closest I could come to it was a link to Trek.co where they have an abbreviated list.

The rumor has it that many shuttle drivers are not licensed and insured, and because of that the ATC removed the list to mitigate their exposure. It was even said that in one state the state police visited shuttle drivers to remind them of their legal requirements.

Not sure how much of this information is accurate. For all I know the ATC may have moved the shuttle list to a different spot on their web site. Anyone have more information? More importantly, does anyone have the 2018 list downloaded and willing to share it?

Gotta love bureaucracy...

[Sarcasm the elf]

Can you cite sources for your “facts”?

I can cite that according to The History channel (back when it was reputable) it was a priority of the puritans to setup a litigious society in the new colony. At the time England had a brutal honor based culture where duels and armed fights were routinely used to settle grievances. The puritans found this wholly immoral and proudly setup a system where the rule of law would use to settle disputes. In short they intentionally and proudly made themselves a litigious society because it was a huge leap forward compared to the standards of the day.

[scrabbler]

rei , outdoors world , best western , barefoot hills , mtn crossing , atc , seasons , outdoor 76 , mtn outfitters , outlaw donkey , back country , western mountaineering , oboz , solomen , hole in the wall , budget inn , micheals Italian , big als pizza , ingles , wally world , the baymont , country inn a sweets , paddys taxi , Blairsville taxi , tog , all the shuttle drivers in this area of ga and nc ... this is just a few of the places that are profiting from hikers in my area . all of them have employees that live in these small towns . most of these business were once small and had huge debt but now are profiting and growing . the ones that i named that are in Blairsville or Hiawassee are small businesses that cater to hikers and are owned by small town people . some of their income comes from hikers that come into town to stay the night , resupply , clean up and get some food . usually brought to town by a shuttle driver that is from the area . this is just a little tid bit of trail politics ..... it is only getting bigger ... there is a new breed of hikers out here . they have the money to hike comfortably and are coming from all over the world to hike the a.t. .

Less than 4000 started the AT last year. IF each of them spent $20 in every town, and it was divided between all those businesses, and DOUBLED next year, you're still only talking a few $1000 per business per town. Not what I would consider Wall Street material.

[Coffee]

Less than 4000 started the AT last year. IF each of them spent $20 in every town, and it was divided between all those businesses, and DOUBLED next year, you're still only talking a few $1000 per business per town. Not what I would consider Wall Street material.

Trail businesses have always seemed to me more a labor of love or trying to give back to the community rather than trying to maximize profit. I can think of much easier ways to make money than to operate a hostel catering to smelly thru hikers paying $25/night for lodging and collecting a few bucks for shuttles. But I always appreciate hiker services when offered and am grateful that the trail towns are there, not only on the AT but other trails.

[scrabbler]

Trail businesses have always seemed to me more a labor of love or trying to give back to the community rather than trying to maximize profit. I can think of much easier ways to make money than to operate a hostel catering to smelly thru hikers paying $25/night for lodging and collecting a few bucks for shuttles. But I always appreciate hiker services when offered and am grateful that the trail towns are there, not only on the AT but other trails.

I agree 100%. I was just trying to argue that this isnt a huge money making opportunity as the other poster had suggested.

The folks making the real money are the REI's that capture all of the millions of folks that romance hiking the trails and never do.

[Slo-go'en]

If I represent a typical hiker, I spend at least $100 in each town I visit by the time it's all said and done. If 4,000 hikers do that, that's more like $400,000 into the local economy and that is significant for these small Appalachian towns.

[gpburdelljr]

Less than 4000 started the AT last year. IF each of them spent $20 in every town, and it was divided between all those businesses, and DOUBLED next year, you're still only talking a few $1000 per business per town. Not what I would consider Wall Street material.

I think $20 per town is an extremely low estimate. Assuming a through hiker is spending $2 to $3 per mile ($4,000 -$6,000 for the entire trail), and hitting town every 100 miles, then you are talking about $200-$300, per hiker, per town.

[illabelle]

I think $20 per town is an extremely low estimate. Assuming a through hiker is spending $2 to $3 per mile ($4,000 -$6,000 for the entire trail), and hitting town every 100 miles, then you are talking about $200-$300, per hiker, per town.

What about all the towns they don't stop at? When I plan a section hike, there are usually a few options for resupply. We don't stop at all of them.

[MuddyWaters]

If I represent a typical hiker, I spend at least $100 in each town I visit by the time it's all said and done. If 4,000 hikers do that, that's more like $400,000 into the local economy and that is significant for these small Appalachian towns.

Very so.

Two nights lodging, 4 meals at restaurants, laundry, resupply isnt cheap.
Easily hit $200 if not share lodging

Theres many hikers other than thrus as well over the year. Shuttles, etc.



Then theres alcohol for many.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I read on a Facebook AT group post yesterday that the ATC has removed the list of shuttle drivers available to hikers on the AT. I did check the ATC web site and found the transportation page still on the web site, but I could not find the direct link to the shuttle driver list. The closest I could come to it was a link to Trek.co where they have an abbreviated list.

The rumor has it that many shuttle drivers are not licensed and insured, and because of that the ATC removed the list to mitigate their exposure. It was even said that in one state the state police visited shuttle drivers to remind them of their legal requirements.

Not sure how much of this information is accurate. For all I know the ATC may have moved the shuttle list to a different spot on their web site. Anyone have more information? More importantly, does anyone have the 2018 list downloaded and willing to share it?

Here's what ATC now has on their site - they link to lists of shuttles on other sites like WB http://appalachiantrail.org/home/exp...tation-options

Here's the page they (ATC) took down last captured by the "wayback machine" on Sept 12 2017, https://web.archive.org/web/20170903...uttles-sandbox


It would not surprise me if local law enforcement and/or insurance companies might look into shuttle drivers who are doing it as a business. Lot's of reasons, but the biggest are commercial vehicle safety and insurance laws. While fees and taxes might well come up as a result, the motivation for law enforcement is probably more on public safety (regarding both driver and vehicle) than revenue, as they would typically be expending more in enforcement than revenue collected. Insurance companies, however, are another story, and they may well be encouraging local LEO. And I can't blame them. Shuttling people around for profit and driving 1000's of miles in the process while not paying commercial rates adversely affects everybody in the personal risk pool, and may also severely impact any hiker unfortunate enough to be injured and find out the operator didn't have commercial coverage.

Here's the pdf ATC published on June 23, 2017 attached

[Slo-go'en]

So, how would insurance companies know that people are being given rides under the drivers personal car insurance? There are many insurance companies, would they all get together to get local LEO to target shuttle drivers? When many of the areas being serviced probably don't even have a police force and rely on State Troopers who rarely patrol the back roads in the mountains?

I suppose if there is a serious accident and a hiker passenger gets injured or killed, then the insurance co would find out about it. But I don't think this has ever happened yet. It could of course, so lets hope it never does.

What kind of insurance do UBER drivers have to have?

[Zed]

When I renewed my auto insurance they sent an updated exclusions page. They no longer provide coverage when the driver is logged into a ride sharing network, whether there is a paying passenger in the vehicle or not. I would imagine most policies would be adding this as Uber and Lyft become more popular.

The thought of insurance coverage for shuttle drivers or hostel owners did cross my mind twice on my hike. Both times were because of something specific the person did that was reckless or negligent.

[Coffee]

I have personal insurance to cover my medical costs should I get injured as a result of accepting a ride in a car, whether I am hitchhiking or using a paid shuttle. I don't personally care what kind of insurance the driver has. It isn't my problem and I wouldn't rely on the driver's insurance to pay for my medical bills. Obviously, if the driver does something negligent and lacks proper insurance, it is unlikely that one could sue the driver for punitive damages (pain and suffering) unless the driver is independently wealthy, but that's a risk I'm willing to take. People accepting rides in cars are under no obligation to check the driver's insurance coverage. I think this is clearly in the caveat emptor category.

[ldsailor]

What kind of insurance do UBER drivers have to have?

When an Uber driver is logged into the app, Uber provides a supplemental liability policy to the drivers insurance. If the driver does not have a commercial rider on their policy and they get into an accident, their insurance company will not cover them. Since Uber cars are usually late model cars in good condition, loss of their car because of a failure to secure the right insurance can be catastrophic for an Uber driver. It follows that a shuttle driver shuttles hikers with no insurance at all if they get in an accident and their insurance company discovers they were driving hikers for pay. That may be why you now see some shuttle drivers asking for "donations."

"Uber requires all of their drivers to have car insurance, and provides supplemental insurance coverage, but only while the app is on. Here's how it works: When the Uber app is off, a driver is covered by their own personal car insurance. When the Uberapp is turned on, a low level of liability insurance becomes active."

[4eyedbuzzard]

I have personal insurance to cover my medical costs should I get injured as a result of accepting a ride in a car, whether I am hitchhiking or using a paid shuttle. I don't personally care what kind of insurance the driver has. It isn't my problem and I wouldn't rely on the driver's insurance to pay for my medical bills. Obviously, if the driver does something negligent and lacks proper insurance, it is unlikely that one could sue the driver for punitive damages (pain and suffering) unless the driver is independently wealthy, but that's a risk I'm willing to take. People accepting rides in cars are under no obligation to check the driver's insurance coverage. I think this is clearly in the caveat emptor category.

Just because you have personal insurance doesn't mean the insurance company pays your medical bills regardless of cause and the process ends with them just gladly footing the bill. You might want to google medical insurance subrogation and read the fine print in your policy.

[Coffee]

Just because you have personal insurance doesn't mean the insurance company pays your medical bills regardless of cause and the process ends with them just gladly footing the bill. You might want to google medical insurance subrogation and read the fine print in your policy.

My ACA medical insurance will most certainly pay the costs of injury that I sustain for any reason, subject to deductibles and co-pays. It's the law. There is no duty for me to check licensing and insurance of hired rides that I take that could result in injury.

[MuddyWaters]

Just because you have personal insurance doesn't mean the insurance company pays your medical bills regardless of cause and the process ends with them just gladly footing the bill. You might want to google medical insurance subrogation and read the fine print in your policy.

Whenever one of my kids went in for something like an MRI or such, which was pretty darn frequent since they played Sports, I would get a letter from my insurance company asking questions like were they in an auto accident, if so provide the contact Insurance blah blah blah blah blah .

My step-son had ankle surgery one time when he tore all three ligaments in his ankle playing football in high school. Same thing got a letter wanting to know who was responsible for this injury , where it happened, so that they could you get reimbursed from them. I just replied nobody.

So yes that the health insurance companies will come after injuries looking to see if somebody else is responsible and they can be reimbursed by it. But they also do pay it upfront because that is their responsibility primarily. And it's never gone any farther than a letter asking me if anybody else is responsible for those expenses.

I suppose if the expenses were hundreds of thousands of dollars of severe Hospital costs and surgeries due to an automobile accident they might investigate a little deeper. But they would still pay up front that's their their ccontract with you.

[Coffee]

So yes that the health insurance companies will come after injuries looking to see if somebody else is responsible and they can be reimbursed by it. But they also do pay it upfront because that is their responsibility primarily. And it's never gone any farther than a letter asking me if anybody else is responsible for those expenses.

That's exactly right. In my case, if Blue Cross wants to go after a third party to recover funds spent on my behalf, they are welcome to do so. But it isn't my problem - I am covered.