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Thread: Gender biases

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipi Walter View Post
    The "woman alone" phenomenon might be a world wide bias against women traveling alone or hiking alone or hitchhiking alone or backpacking alone, or whatever else. This bias could be due to the predatory nature of men---as many men are often "on the hunt" for women to meet for whatever reasons. Fill in the blanks.

    Then again, to your point---There does seem to be an exaggerated fear of men by SOME women, whereby they won't attempt any kind of solo hike or solo backpacking trip. I guess I'd call it The Deliverance Syndrome.



    Spiders and yellow jackets and pit vipers do not discriminate between human males or females---they have no gender biases.

    But all backpackers no matter gender have "what if" scenarios which could keep them out of the woods. Then again, what's more important: Worrying about what might happen or just getting out into what's left of the great outdoors???
    Tipi,
    Oh I don't let it keep me out of the woods. I am not afraid on a paralyzing level. Just a little concerned is all. I will admit it is a ridiculous thought that strength in numbers applies to all things but....

    If a bear eats me, would be nice if there were someone there to call for help and tell the story. If I run face first into a huge spider, it would be nice if someone could tell me where it is and help me get it off.... and laugh at me so hard that I have to laugh at myself instead of crying like a baby. If i fall and twist an ankle, it would be nice if someone were there to help me limp to a rock to sit down a minute to access the damage and possibly get some water for me if I can't walk at all. If I get bit by a pit viper, it would be nice if someone were there to suck the venom out . As a woman, and it may also be true for men, but since I am not one I cannot confirm and doubt many would admit, I just FEEL safer if someone, ANYone, is with me. That's all. Imma still go though.no matter what!
    " Of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt. "

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by FranklinBeans View Post
    <---- lady person here. Afraid of no particular man. Likes to hike. Has never been solo hiking. The most solo I would consider is me + a large dog. Has been physically assaulted by men and only men.

    From early girlhood you're told about safety in numbers, and taught how to carry your keys between your knuckles. Oh, and if you don't follow every single safety tip ever written, you're blamed for your own assault.
    I fully understand that you were raised and taught to be a sexist. Society reinforces these stereotypes and it is still politically correct to do so. Many of the prejudices people have are taught to them from a very young age. This is kind of my point...not only are these attitudes accepted and tolerated, they are taught to women from an early age. You probably don't even realize how sexist you are because nobody has ever challenged your prejudices against men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronk View Post
    I fully understand that you were raised and taught to be a sexist. Society reinforces these stereotypes and it is still politically correct to do so. Many of the prejudices people have are taught to them from a very young age. This is kind of my point...not only are these attitudes accepted and tolerated, they are taught to women from an early age. You probably don't even realize how sexist you are because nobody has ever challenged your prejudices against men.
    Do you even listen to yourself?

  4. #24
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    Does anyone find it funny, the one who is usually the most longwinded and the one who actually started this thread has had pretty much nothing to say about it? I call troll.
    " Of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt. "

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronk View Post
    Most of the sexist behavior I see from females involves them being so wrapped up the idea that men are discriminating against them because of their sex that they delusionally interpret every behavior and attitude to be a result of sexism, which is very far from the case. We frequently see women posting on here about being afraid to hike alone. That in itself is a sexist attitude that assumes that men are something to fear. Their fear of men does not make men dangerous, it is born of their own imagination. Why does nobody challenge them on this? If someone said they were afraid to walk through a black or hispanic neighborhood they would be called racist. But somehow its ok for women to be afraid of men just because of their gender. It my mind this is sexism and glaring evidence of a double standard.
    TU Bronk.


    Sexism exists in US culture and US society. And, we all know cultural and societal tendencies carry over over to the trail. We relate these to trail experiences all the time. So, this isn't just a generalized off trail social issue!

    Let's be real. Backpacking and hiking doesn't occur with duct taped mouths either.


    It's not P correct to call out the sexism men face. If it is called out there is great tendency to ostracize one gender(males) over another in this female dominated and oriented topic discussion. Sexism is often rationalized or ignored away when females engage in this behavior. What's worse is there is little examination of sexism towards men. It's so often excused by implying that men somehow did something to deserve reverse sexism. That is the same crap men do when attempting to excuse their sexist and more serious criminal gender related sexist(sex) crimes against woman stealing a woman's humanity. Simply put, there isn't the fervor of discussion when females engage in sexist attitudes verse when males engage in sexist attitudes. And it matters! I've grown weary of the narrative and indoctrination that excuses sexism towards men. Let me make it clear I'm not angry but there should be greater fair minded more balanced discussion about it.



    Here are specific examples of sexism exhibited against males I've seen or had inflicted upon me ON TRAIL:


    Female hikers on trail and non female hikers in town while resupplying slapping me on the butt or glaring at my arse...often adding "you have a nice butt" with obvious lascivious sexual lewd context. I wasn't asking for this. No one should do this to another adult regardless of gender... unless its totally understood this is acceptable. If I did this to a woman it might very well end my hike in handcuffs... or be verbally beaten to death by angry woman or with their trekking poles. If I did this staring at or touching a woman's breasts I'd be called out. Doesn't happen to me very often but that isn't the point. It's happened to me as a man several times. Maybe I have a nice butt? Ive seen it happen to other men including male hikers. But that can be said about many woman's butts especially hikers or athletes and that wouldn't make me right if I said similar, ogled her butt, or slapped her butt.


    Female hikers hitting me or other males with their closed fist or slapping a male(me and others) with their trekking poles. When it's pointed out this is inappropriate a common response is "what are you a wuzzy?" or "man up." What does that have to do with anything? What woman get a pass because they are a socially protected "victimized" or all of a sudden supposedly physically weaker gender? That constant goal post moving by genders according to how it spontaneously fits into a self serving agenda confuses the shart out of me trying to keep it straight.


    Overhearing a group of giddy condescending females at a AT lean to around a campfire being sexist towards a male hiker because he got temporarily lost by all nodding in agreement that men get lost because men don't ask for directions. I've heard this more than once on trail from woman and more times than I count off trail.


    Two middle aged woman showing up at a full Watauga AT shelter expecting and demanding men to "rough it" outside the shelter because they (men) taking up shelter space wasn't warranted as they(men) didn't have as great a need because they (males) were more capable based on gender alone to stay outside of the shelter. Even another woman at the lean to said this was sexism. I guess the pouring rain brought out the true nature of what woman believe? BTW, that's twice I've observed sexism at this AT shelter. Is there something in the air or water there? One woman was from LA visiting so...


    Hearing the term "mansplaining", a sexist slur, on trail used by women when never hearing the term "womansplaining." What, woman never explain things to men with a condescending attitude??? Are woman based on gender somehow behaviorally levitating above men? Repeated examples of this on trail are observed - woman condescendingly speaking, even yelling, to men based on gender alone.


    Going by a Shenandoah NP CG on an AT hike hearing 4 females unequivocally state with angered sexism in front of two other male hikers and myself that woman are better at raising and caring responsibly for children than men. I've heard this voiced on trail by females several other times. I've never said anything about this to anyone until now but, as with the other two male hikers, did point it out to those 4 females. Two of the woman were having nothing of any conversation that examined their sexists attitudes...including as it was admitted to by two of the woman.


    Several times had females snidely say, often when in a group of several women, after a man burned his dinner around a CS, "that's a man for you in the kitchen" or "men don't know how to cook." One time a hiker who was a chef at a high end NYC restaurant pointed out he's a chef and even offered a sample to the sexist women to show them they were wrong in their sexist's attitudes. Attempting to explain away and ignore their sexism after some of the woman took him up on the taste tests they individually gave him a pass as a man but stood firm in stating men still aren't as good as cooks than women.


    I observed repeated sexist double standard examples of this on trail.

  6. #26

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    How is that for you Lnj?

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronk View Post
    I fully understand that you were raised and taught to be a sexist. Society reinforces these stereotypes and it is still politically correct to do so. Many of the prejudices people have are taught to them from a very young age. This is kind of my point...not only are these attitudes accepted and tolerated, they are taught to women from an early age. You probably don't even realize how sexist you are because nobody has ever challenged your prejudices against men.

    Here's one of my first memories of the sexist indoctrination concerning females I had to learn to recite in Manchurian Candidate fashion in kindergarten in front of the class along with several other boys and girls:


    What are little boys made of?
    What are little boys made of?
    Snips and snails
    And puppy-dogs' tails
    That's what little boys are made of

    What are little girls made of?
    What are little girls made of?
    Sugar and spice
    And everything nice [or "all things nice"]
    That's what little girls are made of


    Really, females are made of all things nice, sugar and spice, that's what they exhibit? We were made to recite it, learn it, at such an age where one isn't yet that critical of a thinker. Then we grow older and rarely question where we get our beliefs looking so far into the past that laid the basis.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by FranklinBeans View Post
    Oh for bleep's sake. Found the misogynist.
    How does this help everyone not just helping by being a straw man defense mechanism for ignoring sexism exhibited by woman against men?


    Are you willing as a woman to admit sexism occurs against men including on trail? If so can you offer examples of it and how females can be more sensitive to not engaging in reverse sexism? Please keep it in context of on trail experiences rather than general off trail in civilization experiences.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by imscotty View Post
    I'm pretty sure Dogwood is just stirring the pot.
    that thought crossed my mind, but now Iím certain...itís something different

  10. #30

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    Dogwood

    1320529223886.jpg

    Those are all stories about gender bias, but they seem somewhat cherry picked. Don't you also have numerous anecdotes of men behaving badly towards women on the trail? Care to share them with us as well?

    Let's then talk about the impact. Sure, I can see how you might be a little bit offended, but honestly, did any of those situations you described make you feel unsafe?

    Here's an anecdote. Last year I was walking through the local convenience store, when an old woman cackled and made a grab for my crotch. I ducked aside and avoided her. I outweighed her by 100 pounds, I had 20 years on her. It was unwelcome attention, sexual in nature and certainly wasn't flattering. However, I was able to easily go about my life without fear, without dread, I didn't have to change my behavior to feel safe, I didn't have to avoid my local convenience store, I didn't have to change my style of dress. Based on the physical size difference, it just didn't impact my life all that much.

    Change the story a bit, make it a much smaller, less powerful person being groped, by a larger, stronger, quicker assailant. Don't you think the impact is suddenly far different? Maybe the same action becomes more meaningful, more sinister, more impactful to how that person might choose to life their life. It's easy to brush off the situation when you're the one with the power. It's less easy to shrug off when you've been assaulted in the past and didn't have the power or resources to deal with it.

    All the stories you told, don't seem all that stressful, don't seem all that dangerous. Someone mentioned a tired old trope about men asking directions. The horror. A poem from the 1820s? That must have been dreadful.

  11. #31
    Lnj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    How is that for you Lnj?
    Much better and true to form
    " Of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt. "

  12. #32
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    In all seriousness, I agree it does happen and I agree it definitely shouldn't at all, but it comes yes from birth training that all women are princesses, but also from a sheer physical fact in proof in strength. Like stated above by Puddlefish, the exact same behavior done to both a woman and a man are both equally wrong and offensive, but when done to the woman there is the added fear factor. I mean you can take it all the way back to the cavemen who drug their women around by the hair.

    In 90+% of the cases, the man is the physically stronger of the two sexes, therefore even he does nothing but say something inappropriate, or smack a butt, the thought the woman must come to is "What if he doesn't take no for an answer?" The ugly truth is, he doesn't really have to. I mean, yes, there are repercussions and so forth if he doesn't, but that comes after, and since he already exhibited a certain lack of decency, whose to say where his line in the sand is?

    On the flip side, if she doesn't want to take no for an answer... well it isn't really up to her. Her only real option is to verbally harass him and maybe even physically assault him, but there is no true fear that she could possibly force him to do anything or take anything from him. She just becomes an embarrassing nuisance at worst case. And this is why people just shrug it off when it is directed at men.

    Summary: Yes it happens, yes its wrong, sorry it happens to you so often, I doubt you are permanently scarred or your life permanently altered because of it so.....
    " Of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt. "

  13. #33

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    Strongest, and smartest, hikers I know are female. That's not bias, that's fact.
    Teej

    "[ATers] represent three percent of our use and about twenty percent of our effort," retired Baxter Park Director Jensen Bissell.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronk View Post
    I fully understand that you were raised and taught to be a sexist. Society reinforces these stereotypes and it is still politically correct to do so. Many of the prejudices people have are taught to them from a very young age. This is kind of my point...not only are these attitudes accepted and tolerated, they are taught to women from an early age. You probably don't even realize how sexist you are because nobody has ever challenged your prejudices against men.

    Jesus you're a creep.

  15. #35

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    No, because sexism is institutional. someone may be biased against a man, but men do not experience sexism as an institutional issue. And I will spend exactly no time trying to make men feel better about the fact that overall they perpetrate bias and crime against women and not the other way around. Bye, felicia.

  16. #36
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    Of the three female thru hikers (yes, thru hikers) murdered on the AT only one was hiking alone, while the other two were hiking with a male companion who also became a victim.

    Each of these incidents occurred some years ago, and well outside of the northbound bubble. These incidents and others associated with the AT suggest 3 trustworthy people is the magic number for increased safety at a shelter off seasonó not just 2.

    As as others will surely add, the AT is statistically a safe place for all, and that 5 or 6 murdered thru hikers (yes, thru hikers) is a low number when everything is considered.

    Especially since not one has ever been killed in the contemporary NOBO bubble.

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    Dogwood, I hope I didn't incite this post by crying sexism in the bra thread! As I stated there, while I did it mildly patronizing to swoop into the women's forum to tell female hikers to use common sense and be discreet with their lingerie choices, it was only when putting your post side by side with the pepper spray responses that I observed any hypocrisy. It was nothing against you personally. Just a trend I've found annoying recently.

    As for your experiences with harassment on the trail, I find them appalling and I hate that those things happened to you. Women are doing society no favors when they engage in prejudicial behavior against men. Most of your complaints (being dismissed or expected to "man up" when wronged, not being good at cooking or raising children, not asking for directions) are rooted in the same gender stereotypes that hurt women: This idea that men must be strong, emotionless providers who never need help from anyone, and women must be caregivers who are incapable of functioning independently outside the home, etc. etc.

    So instead of pitting it as sexism against women vs. "reverse" sexism against men and arguing about which is worse, I think it's much more helpful to see it as two aspects of the same problem. If we all work to recognize that ANYONE can be strong AND sensitive, independent AND cooperative, and on the negative side, aggressor AND victim, then maybe we'll actually get somewhere. In short, treat people how people should be treated, not worry so much about about how men should be or women should be.



    As for actually experiencing bias or harassment on trail, I will say that I've had only one experience in 800 miles of backpacking so far where I felt unsafe due to harassment, and that was from a creep on a motorcycle during a stretch of trail that followed a road. So no hiker has ever come onto me in a way where I felt in danger. As for bias, it's generally been mild. Just a lot of "I would NEVER let MY daughter do what you're doing" comments from well-meaning fathers on the trail. Often the same fathers who talk about encouraging their 18-year-old sons to thru-hike after high school. That, and "But you're not going ALONE, are you!?" from almost every person (male and female) that I've told about my plans to thru-hike. I'm sure male hikers get this too, particularly young ones, but I doubt it's to the same degree. That kind of bias is mildly annoying, but not the kind of thing that would keep me off trail. In general I've found the bias in facebook group discussions more bothersome than any behavior I've witnessed from hikers on trail. A sign I need to get off my keyboard and into the mountains!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lnj View Post
    BUT..... I am afraid of spiders and bears and falling and breaking or spraining an ankle and having no one to help me or becoming a burden on a stranger, or getting violently ill with no help... etc etc. That's where I am afraid to hike alone.
    I whole-heartedly believe that the trail is filled with the type of people who, If they came across anybody who was hurt from a fall or in any sort of predicament, would help and consider it not a burden but an opportunity to act on the goodness that the trail inspires. If you, or any other person needs help - I, and 99.9999% of any hiker I've ever met out there (or on here) would step up, gladly. Sex, age, nationality, religion - There is no discrimination when it comes to someone needing help.(MAYBE THE 1ST THING EVERYONE ON WB WOULD AGREE ON?!? -DaNcInG BaNaNa-)

  19. #39
    A proper quick, brave, steady, ready gentleman! ocourse's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what to make of this thread, but I would like to relate 2 incidents. A buddy and I were eating lunch at a shelter close to Afton, VA. He had a Rotweiller off-leash. A lone woman comes down the trail to the shelter and starts practically screaming at me that the dog won't stop sniffing her (you know what dogs do, so read between the lines). She said I couldn't imagine how rude that was. I was so dumb-founded that I just smiled. Not my dog, dog just being dog, should have been on a leash.. I think that was gender-based stupidity.
    Second event; hiking alone in Shenandoah National Park I heard a jogger on the trail coming up behind me. This young woman absolutely screamed at me. "Hey, hey, hey!" She was an extreme loudmouth. I turned around and smiled. From behind she had thought I was relieving my self on the trail. When I turned around, she saw that I was adjusting my pack waistband. Gender bias? Whatever. She ruined my pleasant hike for a few miles. I have not had any bad encounters with men, though.
    I've learned....
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocourse View Post
    I'm not sure what to make of this thread, but I would like to relate 2 incidents. A buddy and I were eating lunch at a shelter close to Afton, VA. He had a Rotweiller off-leash. A lone woman comes down the trail to the shelter and starts practically screaming at me that the dog won't stop sniffing her (you know what dogs do, so read between the lines). She said I couldn't imagine how rude that was. I was so dumb-founded that I just smiled. Not my dog, dog just being dog, should have been on a leash.. I think that was gender-based stupidity.
    Second event; hiking alone in Shenandoah National Park I heard a jogger on the trail coming up behind me. This young woman absolutely screamed at me. "Hey, hey, hey!" She was an extreme loudmouth. I turned around and smiled. From behind she had thought I was relieving my self on the trail. When I turned around, she saw that I was adjusting my pack waistband. Gender bias? Whatever. She ruined my pleasant hike for a few miles. I have not had any bad encounters with men, though.
    I think the freaking ROTWEILLER should have been on a leash.

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