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Thread: Gender biases

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    Quote Originally Posted by kestral View Post
    Uncle joe, you seem like a nice man, as do most men on white blaze. I have ptsd issues. These are not imagined, they are the result of real experiences which have been devastating. I am pretty happy and friendly while out traveling and hiking. I try to enjoy life, and not let my history dictate a reclusive existence. Statistically, many more than 1 in 1000 men are criminals, many violent. I have met more than 1000 men while hiking over many years. I would rather be perceived as a bitch than an easy target. Im sorry if I seem stand offish, it is self defense.
    Please dont interpret this as being unsympathetic to your past trauma, Im not.

    Just playing with #s.

    in 2016 FBi statitistics report violent crime as 386 per 100,000 people. Not all these are against women, but we will assume here.
    Lets be real, hiking, you have nothing worth stealing that warrants violence. Rape and murder is all anyone would be reasonably concerned with.

    Of that, 9% was rape or murder. Thats 38 per 100,000 people. Since half those people are men we can say 38 per 50,000 men.

    But only 28% are by strangers, the rest are by people the victim knew. Assuming you dont hike with ex boyfriends, relatives, or spouses, the rate would be 10.6 per 50,000 men. Thats 2 rapists/murderers per 10,000 men assuming no repeat offenders. And most are career violent criminals and repeat offenders. In reality, its less than 1/10,000 men you are worried about.

  2. #82
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    My parents were murdered while out hiking. I was abducted, held, raped, strangled and left for dead by a male in a separate incident. It was my former husband. Unusual yes. Statistically improbable yes. Really did happen yes. I have issues yes.

    Again. You don’t know me and I don’t know you. I have issues. Bad **** happens. Don’t assume. Don’t judge. I try not to.

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    I guess I was just brought wrong. my parents taught me to open doors for ladies and allow them to go first when there was only room for one. I also was told to take less of an umbrella when it was raining so ladies would not get wet. Basically just respect women.

    I do have a bad habit of using the words Honey, Sweety, Sweetheart, Darling and Dear when thanking women. I have only been called out on it once in 58 years so I told her to leave because she was complaining about something i have been doing for years and she was the first to complain. I have never meant anything sexual, disrespectful or demeaning by saying it. I would like to say that in the southern US, waitresses have called me and several other males the same thing, so I guess we could say the shoes are both set of feet.
    Blackheart

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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeBill View Post
    I guess I was just brought wrong. my parents taught me to open doors for ladies and allow them to go first when there was only room for one. I also was told to take less of an umbrella when it was raining so ladies would not get wet. Basically just respect women.

    I do have a bad habit of using the words Honey, Sweety, Sweetheart, Darling and Dear when thanking women. I have only been called out on it once in 58 years so I told her to leave because she was complaining about something i have been doing for years and she was the first to complain. I have never meant anything sexual, disrespectful or demeaning by saying it. I would like to say that in the southern US, waitresses have called me and several other males the same thing, so I guess we could say the shoes are both set of feet.
    I appreciate men being gentleman.

    and I was raised to be respectful and a gentlewomen. Thank you.
    Last edited by kestral; 04-06-2018 at 20:14.

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by kestral View Post
    My parents were murdered while out hiking. I was abducted, held, raped, strangled and left for dead by a male in a separate incident. It was my former husband. Unusual yes. Statistically improbable yes. Really did happen yes. I have issues yes.

    Again. You donít know me and I donít know you. I have issues. Bad **** happens. Donít assume. Donít judge. I try not to.
    I can see how that might affect someone...

    Statistically, you may have better chance of finding winning lottery ticket on sidewalk than something else similarly bad ever happening to you.
    When i go out on trail , Im at peace. Ive accepted risk I might die. Its OK. I would rather that happen, than not go. When i got back from recent trip, i remarked to wife how well i sleep in woods. 11 hrs, waking up only momentarily for a minute or such now and then. . For months ive been sleepin 3-4 hrs and waking up for hours in middle of night. First night back in hotel, after 20 mile day, woke up 1am, up till 5 am again.
    When i get on plane to work in middle east, same thing. What happens, happens. And family will collect $2 million in insurance if something bad does, so i dont worry.
    I tend to think a lot about accepting what fate sends your way. Theres really no other choice. Sooner you agree to it, freer you are. We arent really in control of anything, we just like to pretend we are. And...lifes lot fair. But...everyone has their own burdens, tests, demons. Some visible, some not. Rich famous people commit suicide too. How you handle what life throws at you, defines you.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 04-06-2018 at 20:38.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    I can see how that might affect someone...

    Statistically, you may have better chance of finding winning lottery ticket on sidewalk than something else simularly bad ever happening to you.
    When i go out on trail , Im at peace. Ive accepted risk I might die. Its OK. I would rather that happen, than not go. When i got back from recent trip, i remarked to wife how well i sleep in woods. 11 hrs, waking up only momentarily for a minute or such now and then. . For months ive been sleepin 3-4 hrs and waking up for hours in middle of night. First night back in hotel, after 20 mile day, woke up 1am, up till 5 am again.

    I tend to think a lot about accepting what fate sends your wda. Theres really no other choice. Sooner you agree to it, freer you are. We arent really in control of anything, we just like to pretend we are.
    MW, As a retired law enforcement officer you can't look at someone like Kestral and know how she is feeling. I had to take several different courses on victim/rape intervention to try and deal with victims of violent crimes, because saying you know how they feel, is just a plain flat out lie. I didn't know how they felt. I tried to reassure them that with their help I will try and find the rat ba*tard that hurt them and lock them up for as long as possible. When I started working undercover in vice and narcotics it only took getting shot twice and stabbed once for me to say I'm done, because I felt I left enough of my blood on the streets. Like you said about the risk you could die, I knew I could be killed at any time, but I like stacking the odds in my favor.
    Blackheart

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    Muddy waters, we are much less different then same. I find my peace in nature. I spent years “ safely” locked inside both in work and at home... felt inprisoned.

    I find peace, good sleep, contentment, security, in nature. I want to continue to enjoy nature in safety.

    The thread here was gender bias. I don’t care if someone says I have a nice ass, at worst it is an inappropriate compliment.

    What I was trying to say is that sometimes women may seem harsh when it is really concern for safety, because they don’t know you. They don’t know if you are being cute, or friendly or creepy or whatever. You don’t know my history, as I don’t know yours. That is where curtesy and manors can help each of us respect and enjoy each other’s company. I want to be out there. I want to meet and enjoy your company. But sometimes I get scared and hibernate in my tent, or maybe I’m just tired. Either way, please respect my space as I respect yours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeBill View Post
    MW, As a retired law enforcement officer you can't look at someone like Kestral and know how she is feeling. I had to take several different courses on victim/rape intervention to try and deal with victims of violent crimes, because saying you know how they feel, is just a plain flat out lie. I didn't know how they felt. I tried to reassure them that with their help I will try and find the rat ba*tard that hurt them and lock them up for as long as possible. When I started working undercover in vice and narcotics it only took getting shot twice and stabbed once for me to say I'm done, because I felt I left enough of my blood on the streets. Like you said about the risk you could die, I knew I could be killed at any time, but I like stacking the odds in my favor.
    I never said i knew how she felt, nor would I ever.

    But i think i can understand that finding a way to deal with it, is necessary for it not to cripple your life.

    I can tell you that locking people up would never be the kind of revenge that I would want to accept on somebody that did a bad thing to me or my family....its pretty meaningless to me, and im not even talking about things like she endured.

    And, while i freely admit its utterly useless, i did come out of college with a minor in psychology. I know just enough...to know psychology is just , as my abnormal psych professor put it, "common sense....made difficult". Im also a big believer in power of rationalization, and visualization. Thru visualization the brain can learn new things, in a controlled setting, without ever actually doing them. Immensely powerful athletic training tool. And probably useful for desensitization therapy too.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 04-06-2018 at 21:26.

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by kestral View Post
    My parents were murdered while out hiking. I was abducted, held, raped, strangled and left for dead by a male in a separate incident. It was my former husband. Unusual yes. Statistically improbable yes. Really did happen yes. I have issues yes.

    Again. You don’t know me and I don’t know you. I have issues. Bad **** happens. Don’t assume. Don’t judge. I try not to.
    What a truly horrible story...can’t imagine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kestral View Post
    Muddy waters, we are much less different then same. I find my peace in nature. I spent years ď safelyĒ locked inside both in work and at home... felt inprisoned.

    I find peace, good sleep, contentment, security, in nature. I want to continue to enjoy nature in safety.

    The thread here was gender bias. I donít care if someone says I have a nice ass, at worst it is an inappropriate compliment.

    What I was trying to say is that sometimes women may seem harsh when it is really concern for safety, because they donít know you. They donít know if you are being cute, or friendly or creepy or whatever. You donít know my history, as I donít know yours. That is where curtesy and manors can help each of us respect and enjoy each otherís company. I want to be out there. I want to meet and enjoy your company. But sometimes I get scared and hibernate in my tent, or maybe Iím just tired. Either way, please respect my space as I respect yours.
    While im sure there are socially inept people that dont know when to leave someone alone, most normal peeople pick up the cues on how receptive a person is to company, conversation, and even to getting to know each other better than just via common courtesies. Ive met a few single women, and pairs of women on trails , up to small groups, and pretty sure I can sense when they are guarded, or at ease. Id like to think most can, and do give space when wanted. I sincerely hope no stranger on trail just " you got a nice a$$", because no body I ever met would do that, including several that been to prison. However, im sure theres some low brow people that think it would be a compliment and a way to pick up hoes.

    One thing I like about solo hiking..is people engage you in conversation more than they do if you have a partner or group.

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    Thank you for your kind thoughts.

    One part of my life story is horrrible, but mostly I am a happy, outgoing person. I just want to say that each of us has personal demons, and each and everyone of us deserves kindness, benifit of doubt, and a bit of space to explore our lives and live out our dreams. My dreams are small, be a good mom, good in my career, walk in the woods when I can, peck away at the AT and PCT...

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    MW, Sir my deepest apologies for the wrong assumption, but after years of dealing with child molesters, rapist, sexual predators, victims of domestic violence and general scum, my opinion tends to be very harsh.

    I am just glad that my parents raised me as they did and I was able to raise my two daughters the exact same way. I would also hunt down anyone who ever hurt them be it family or anyone else, leaving just enough to prosecute.
    Blackheart

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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeBill View Post
    MW, Sir my deepest apologies for the wrong assumption, but after years of dealing with child molesters, rapist, sexual predators, victims of domestic violence and general scum, my opinion tends to be very harsh.

    I am just glad that my parents raised me as they did and I was able to raise my two daughters the exact same way. I would also hunt down anyone who ever hurt them be it family or anyone else, leaving just enough to prosecute.
    You seem to be a good man. Thank you for protecting those who need your help. I would ask people to look out for something “fishy” and speak up, ask if they can help. After the bad events in my life, many spoke out about things that seemed “fishy” and “not quite right”. Maybe if they had a little more encouragement, they would have gotten involved, and bad events would not have ensued. Being proactive can be awquard.

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    Kestral, don't tell anyone else I am a good man, I have a reputation to uphold as having a bad reputation.
    Blackheart

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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeBill View Post
    MW, Sir my deepest apologies for the wrong assumption, but after years of dealing with child molesters, rapist, sexual predators, victims of domestic violence and general scum, my opinion tends to be very harsh.

    I am just glad that my parents raised me as they did and I was able to raise my two daughters the exact same way. I would also hunt down anyone who ever hurt them be it family or anyone else, leaving just enough to prosecute.
    No need to apologize apologize to me.
    Thank you for your service .

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    Quote Originally Posted by kestral View Post
    My parents were murdered while out hiking. I was abducted, held, raped, strangled and left for dead by a male in a separate incident. It was my former husband. Unusual yes. Statistically improbable yes. Really did happen yes. I have issues yes.
    Again. You donít know me and I donít know you. I have issues. Bad **** happens. Donít assume. Donít judge. I try not to.
    As noted, statistically, this was someone you knew and that's not atypical. Truly horrifying and I'm sorry for your loss. I too have been the victim of an abduction in my family, though not raped so I can't know how you feel completely. In my case, my mother managed to escape.Your trepidation is understandable. I think anyone who has been through such a thing is going to have an understandably different take. I know I certainly have a different perspective on defense as a result.
    That said, I still believe many people with no such experiences, have similar issues that are born more out of what they have been taught or encouraged to think about gender interaction. They've been told if someone says just the right/wrong thing it is inherently a sign of bias, misogyny, or something negative. That was my only point.
    That is not to take away, in any way, what has happened to you nor your feelings and resulting cautiousness as a result of that tragedy.
    Last edited by Uncle Joe; 04-06-2018 at 22:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kestral View Post
    You seem to be a good man. Thank you for protecting those who need your help. I would ask people to look out for something ďfishyĒ and speak up, ask if they can help. After the bad events in my life, many spoke out about things that seemed ďfishyĒ and ďnot quite rightĒ. Maybe if they had a little more encouragement, they would have gotten involved, and bad events would not have ensued. Being proactive can be awquard.
    And this is a good point. I don't want to imply there aren't creeps and creepy people on the trail. We need to be aware and step in when something isn't right.

    I met a girl on the trail in my last section. She was with a couple of her friends. She had started a thru hike of the AT and had come off the trail and started doing sections with friends instead. The reason being that some guy had put the moves on her pretty heavy. So much so that she was shaken enough to not want to continue her thru in fear she might encounter him or some other creep.

    While I believe such fears are overblown, once they do occur for that person those fears are forever real. So we need to keep that in mind as well. Having met this person and hiked with her and her friends for the better part of three days, I know she was convinced the guy was a problem and a possible risk. She seemed like a nice person and in no other way seemed to have a problem with people, or men in particular so I take her concerns as valid and give her the benefit of the doubt.

    I thought to myself that it would have been good for someone to have stepped in and she might have had the courage and encouragement to continue her thru.

    While we shouldn't cater to someone's fears, we very much should be aware when something isn't right. The vast majority of people on the trail are good people who want to share in a mutual love of hiking. There are exceptions to every rule and one way to promote the joy of hiking is to be vigilant of the few bad apples that might be on the trail

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Joe View Post
    The problem is you can't know. You can't know what is going to be misconstrued in someone's mind. Nor should it be your responsibility. If I make a comment directly attacking someone or making a generalization that is meant to needle someone, then I am at least complicit in their being offended. But if I make a general statement that was meant, nor would generally be construed as insulting and the other person, through the filter of their insecurities, is offended then that is on them. I've had it happen. Some people have serious problems dealing with life. Don't be one of them and don't take their hurt feelings on yourself.

    I agree with this post, and I definitely think it's useful in every kind of interaction in life, whether with strangers or spouses, to always assume if there are two ways to construe something, the person meant it in the nicer way. Most humans don't deliberately make each other feel bad. Granted, just because I didn't mean for something to be offensive doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with it-- we should always be willing to listen to other perspectives we hadn't initially considered-- but I'm much happier going through life assuming people generally mean well.

    That said, regarding the point in Uncle Joe's post that I bolded, it's important to understand that this "not knowing" goes both ways. A man can't know if a woman will bite his head off for holding the door for her, but it's not his responsibility to preserve her feelings. And, a woman can't know that the man at the campsite won't hurt her. And it's not her responsibility to preserve his feelings. If a woman seems standoffish at first, you could construe that in two ways. One is that's she's an oversensitive man-hater. The other is that she has learned from firsthand experience to be wary around strange men until she's gotten a read of the situation and her gut tells her it's safe. I promise that 99.9% of the time, it's the second one. Like Kestrel said, better to be perceived as a bitch than an easy target. While I have thankfully never been the victim of a violent crime, I've certainly learned that my Southern friendliness and accommodating nature can easily be misconstrued as receptiveness to men's advances. That's gotten me into some uncomfortable and dangerous situations, so I have trained myself not to smile so much right at first. While out hiking, my wariness usually fades the moment a stranger greets me in a normal way, and then we can enjoy each other's company because 99.9% of male hikers have good intentions, too.

    Tl;dr I think we should all be as generous as possible in our assumptions about other people's intentions, but please don't judge a woman too harshly if she is unnecessarily guarded around you. While I imagine men and women are equally likely to annoy each other, we simply don't pose an equal physical threat to one another.
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    I appreciate men being gentlemen too. At the same time I will get the door for a man too. I guess it just boils down to common courtesy. If I see a man holding a door for me I will walk a little faster. If a car is letting me pass I will walk a little faster too.

    I just went to a group meet. For hours I was the only female in camp. Then one more arrived. I felt fine and perfectly safe. I actually felt more comfortable than I expected. It went a long way to making me feel more comfortable with trail life.

  20. #100

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    I think this is all overanalyzed. I will hold the door for any human if it seems like the right timing and energy. If someone (man or woman) gave me $hit about holding the door for them there would be verbal reckoning reciprocated


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