Forest Service arresting protesters along the AT

[Alleghanian Orogeny]

So... you're not familiar with the Koch brothers?

Sure I am. Only I don't believe the drivel written and published about the Koch brothers nor that about any other individuals or industries which have become unpopular. I choose to do my own homework and over the last 45 years that has involved both undergrad and professional school study of the physical sciences, economics, accounting, tax law, and business law. A background in science and business law leads most to a strong sense of skepticism towards pop culture fads and favors, particularly in this age of social media with such widespread distribution of junk science and outright propaganda. The depiction of the Koch brothers as some sort of boogeymen intent on the destruction of the very markets for the goods and services they sell and earn their incomes from is ludicrous on its face.

AO

[Alleghanian Orogeny]

Yeah. Anything/anyone who blocks the flow of profit has been, is being, and always will be mercilessly crushed and terminated. Freedom!

Have you closely and personally examined the outcomes realized under non-capitalist (ie non-profit) economic systems in the areas of environmental quality and recreational opportunities for their citizens? See Chernobyl for how well the Russians made out generating electric power under their socialist economic system and stop by Shanghai on a still winter day for an update on China's "clean air act" from a current centralized communist system. And check on their prisons (er, I mean, "re-education facilities") for how those citizens who oppose the non-capitalist systems are treated. If that's the kind of "freedom" you seek, good luck with that.

AO

[OCDave]

.... Only I don't believe the drivel written and published about the Koch brothers nor that about any other individuals or industries which have become unpopular....

Ok then. You don't believe.


"Fake News"?

[Alleghanian Orogeny]

Ok then. You don't believe."Fake News"?

There it is. Fake news. Quoting from the propaganda feed of the other side.

Many are, like me, registered Democrats since the age of 18, but came of age at a time in which we questioned authority of all stripes. Maybe we're the "Show Me" generatlon as opposed to the "put it on a screen and I'll believe it" generation. I urge that caution be exercised by the latter whenever Kool Aid is offered "for free".

AO

[Leo L.]

Have you closely and personally examined the outcomes realized under non-capitalist (ie non-profit) economic systems in the areas of environmental quality and recreational opportunities for their citizens? See Chernobyl for how well the Russians made out generating electric power under their socialist economic system and stop by Shanghai on a still winter day for an update on China's "clean air act" from a current centralized communist system. And check on their prisons (er, I mean, "re-education facilities") for how those citizens who oppose the non-capitalist systems are treated. If that's the kind of "freedom" you seek, good luck with that.

AO

Pointing at a really bad sample in an almost-failed economic system in order to give an excuse to do bad in your own country doesn't seem very good practice.

From the distance of Europe, I've always looked up in admiration of how well you Americans protect your nature in many places. It seems that this is only working due to an ongoing struggle between the protectors and the industry.
In most places, we here in (Central) Europe completely failed in standing up to protect nature. We don't have any wilderness you could call one any more. Its all eaten-up by traffic ways, private homes, industry, powerlines, ski areas and tourism business.
All the best to those who stand up and try to protect nature!

[Rain Man]

"Big Oil" only in the minds of those with little understanding of free market capitalism.

Ahhhhh, the old myth, canard, lie, of "free market" in America. Nothing is more rigged than the American system in favor of corporations, especially this or that corporation, industry, or special for-profit interest.

IF ONLY we had a free market system!

[Alleghanian Orogeny]

I'm interested to see your specific references to Federal statutes and regulations indicative of such "rigging" favoring corporations, particularly as relates to broad categories of industries, as well as any peer-reviewed economics research showing what our economic system is if other than principally a free market system.

And just to throw this out there, who owns corporations to begin with? Do individual investors in fact own the great majority of the equity of corporations? Hmmmm.........

AO

[Runner2017]

Ahhhhh, the old myth, canard, lie, of "free market" in America. Nothing is more rigged than the American system in favor of corporations, especially this or that corporation, industry, or special for-profit interest.

IF ONLY we had a free market system!

Mussolini is considered the father of Fascism. He pointed out in 1926, "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism*because it is the merger of state and corporate power."

On the other hand, I view both USSR and Mao's China were just another form of state capitalism. China today is a pure fascist state per Mussolini's textbook definition of Fascism.

[Leo L.]

As soon as anybody is owning something, the dark side of character begins to show on most, if not all people.
Thats the deeper reason why communism widely failed, and thats the reason again why capitalism fails in many aspects: Because at the end ist driven by the havoc-runnig greed of people.
Be they owner of a company, shareholders or just employees who gain additional advantage from working for a specific company.

Human nature is not fit to withstand the corruption by money and power.
Only very few persons could withstand, and for limited time only.

[OCDave]

I'm interested to see your specific references to Federal statutes and regulations indicative of such "rigging" favoring corporations, particularly as relates to broad categories of industries, as well as any peer-reviewed economics research showing what our economic system is if other than principally a free market system.

And just to throw this out there, who owns corporations to begin with? Do individual investors in fact own the great majority of the equity of corporations? Hmmmm.........

AO

Except that:

... I don't believe the drivel written and published about the Koch brothers nor that about any other individuals or industries which have become unpopular. ...AO

If you accept only what supports your arguement and reject everything else...? Is there really any point?

[Runner2017]

who do you pay for gas, electric and all other consumer goods? everything you purchase is for profit. don't be a hypocrite

Warren Buffet famously said profit is made at the time cost is externalized.

Before the Civil War, there were lots of heated debates about whether ownership slavery practised in the South was economically sound.

One prominent senator from the North argued: Why keep slaves when you can externalize all cost of labor maintenance? In his view the world had entered a new epoch of wage slavery, in which wage slaves need to clothe themselves, feed themselves, house themselves, educate themselves, and etc. In other words, cost of labor maintenence is entirely externalized. Progress!

In the same light, our public land and national forests are cost-externalizing schemes and they maintained by taxpayers today so tomorrow corporations can make use of them free of charge. Freedom!

[FreeGoldRush]

Ahhhhh, the old myth, canard, lie, of "free market" in America. Nothing is more rigged than the American system in favor of corporations, especially this or that corporation, industry, or special for-profit interest.
IF ONLY we had a free market system!

Of course. Billions in subsidies to corn growers clearly rigs the market against products that compete with corn, such as sugar instead of corn syrup. Private banks were granted a legal monopoly and all trade is required to be conducted through the currency they create and lend. In the 1930s oil and gas companies were granted the right to seize private property; and they still do today. That's just three examples of how the economy is rigged with rules that do not apply to everyone equally.

So being a free market capitalist is healthy, but don't fall under the illusion that the system isn't rigged against you. We (individuals and small businesses) play under a different set of rules than many large corporations do. This is not an argument as to whether that system is good or bad, but it's not a "free market".

[Traveler]

Wonderful bovine scatology being bandied about.

How about we get back to the issue of the pipe crossing on the AT, the Forest Service allowing ATVs on the AT and tearing up a longer stretch than will be impacted by the pipe line to begin with.

Seems there are a lot of things better discussed here than offspring of the John Birch Society creators and why fossil fuel industry has exception from pollution laws. Neither one we can change here, but we can monitor how the Forest Service manages their poor decision making repairs.

[robby]

...boom!!!

[BuckeyeBill]

Very wise words Traveler.

[OCDave]

Wonderful bovine scatology being bandied about.

How about we get back to the issue of the pipe crossing on the AT, the Forest Service allowing ATVs on the AT and tearing up a longer stretch than will be impacted by the pipe line to begin with.

Seems there are a lot of things better discussed here than offspring of the John Birch Society creators and why fossil fuel industry has exception from pollution laws. Neither one we can change here, but we can monitor how the Forest Service manages their poor decision making repairs.

With respect to you Traveler, the original post doesn't mention ATVs. The simplicity of the original post leaves open the topic for a wide ranging discussion including how fossile fuel industies are regulated and exceptions they enjoy.

A few people in climbing trees is futile unless, their actions shine a light on their cause and what they perceive to be the injustices against them. This thread has been a small part of that light. Sorry that you consider that BS.

Good day to all

[BuckeyeBill]

We have a situation in my area that would bring both jobs and taxes to the community. One is a windmill farm that has ended up in the courts. The other was a rezoning of some property so a national chain gas/convenience store would open on. In the first case I think is a case of sour grapes, as the complaining people were not chosen for a windmill on their property. In the second case it was simply a matter of people saying I don't mind them coming to town, just not in my backyard.

The tree and pole sitters in this case, I believe really are doing this to draw attention to something they truly believe in. For that they should be commended. They have several federal agencies involved in the situation they have created. Personally I think that if the Forest Service and the private security people just walked away and let them sit where they want, the situation would end, as they would no longer be getting the attention they so desire. Right mow both sides are waiting to see who draws first blood.

[BuckeyeBill]

mow = now........

[petedelisio]

These nuts in trees have caused more litter and debris then the pipeline will (once complete). Thing I love most about these kind of snowflakes is in the end, the pipeline will still be laid, and they will have crapped in a bucket and lived in a box, on a pole for several months.

It would be real hard to have a walking trail run thru 14 states without it crossing amenities to most peoples everyday life. I haven't ever heard anyone complaining about "that" road crossing the trail when they want to hitch into town....And I would almost guarantee that most yayhoos walk over pipelines on the AT every year and never bat an eye....Why you may ask?? BECAUSE ITS UNDERGROUND.

Just on one point,,, well never mind maybe the roads don't catch the forrest on fire, but the people useing them do.