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Thread: Base Weight

  1. #21
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    Oh yeah, and I'm not going stoveless, although I think that is less a weight savings than it is just a time-saver with my morning and evening routines.

  2. #22
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    Sorry, I meant I AM going stoveless.

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    But I do agree that it may be a starting point, but only that. Once you are into realizing 'systems' and not 'items', baseweight starts to work against you, as some systems include consumables.
    Not in my world — I have found the systems approach to be incredibly useful. And systems are made up of items and consumables are not. I don't understand this part either.


    Some general observations regarding the posts above...

    If people want to kid themselves about actual base and total pack weights, that's fine by me, and if they're happy carrying 50 lbs it's no concern of mine.

    I would offer that most people paying attention to base weight are also paying attention to consumables and very close attention to their water situation especially in the drier seasons. I know that when planning a trip I look at water availability before I look at the trail profile. I use AM almost exclusively, but have seen the utility of a Sawyer Squeeze on occasion.

    If one hikes in a desert environment, well of course the base weight is going to be somewhat higher simply due to the need for a heavier pack with more supportive suspension to handle the additional weight of 5-8 liters of water. Other than that, however, the actual base shouldn't be higher, or not much higher.

    you should carry what you want..nothing more or less. Weight doesn't matter one way or another if you do this and are motivated enough to get from point A to point B. The incessant worry and fret over nonsense is making a mountain out of a molehill. Somebody once said on here that it's just walking. That brother spoke the truth.
    Right up until the point that somebody logs in on WB asking about how to reduce pack weight. Ever notice how nobody ever inquires about how to increase pack weight??
    Last edited by cmoulder; 05-02-2018 at 06:31.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    I would offer that most people paying attention to base weight are also paying attention to consumables and very close attention to their water situation especially in the drier seasons. I know that when planning a trip I look at water availability before I look at the trail profile. I use AM almost exclusively, but have seen the utility of a Sawyer Squeeze on occasion.
    I'm pretty much the opposite of that.

    As long as the pack is comfortable and basically not noticeable, I don't really pay too much attention to water or food.

    For planning purposes... I consider maximum water carries. As well as maximum food carries. And I'll really really try to get things into manageable range. But once under 17 -18 lb , it's not a big deal.

    Case in point, on a recent hike of half of the OHT, where water was everywhere due to a lot of rain, on one particular day I started with a liter of water. The first time I took a sip of that water was after 15 miles.

    There's been many times I've carried 2 L of water for 10 Mi without taking a sip.
    This obviously only occurs in cooler weather when temperature is in the maybe 50's maximum.

    On the JMT I carried xtra three full days of food the whole second half, in addition to probably a liter of water when I didn't need to. I found I was carrying one plus extra day of food the whole first half. I was simply hiking faster than I had planned cuz I didn't know what to expect.

    In recent years I find I'm carrying a lot of extra food on short hikes cuz I'm not eating lunch. I have developed an aversion to stopping for lunch and I prefer just to eat snacks. My metabolism has slowed with age and I don't seem to miss those calories that much over say up to 2 weeks or so.

    Typically if I'm under 20 lb I really don't care how much weight I'm carrying. I can still hike the 20 miles or whatever without an issue. Now if I was targeting a 30 mile day...
    I probably be looking for ways to ditch some weight and paying a lot closer attention to it.

    Besides I'm somewhat of a masochist. I actually think that working hard is good for me. But the real beauty of a light pack for me........ Is I don't have to worry about that stuff...... Like people with the heavier packs do. Also my 17-ounce arc blast can handle that weight very well, whereas a lot of people's frameless packs don't get good till they get under 15. So that crowd maybe a little more sensitive to it as well.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 05-02-2018 at 06:56.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoRoads View Post
    I'm really enjoying reading your comments and trying to learn as much as I can. Just comparing what I'm carrying vs. what you all are saying gives me a point of reference. Just from your comments and and my own reflection, I've reduced my base weight from 20 or 21# to about 16. I'm trying to bring total weight down from 37 (although usually 30-35) a couple of weeks ago on the trail. I'd like to get it down to 25 or below with consumables. The reductions I've made are partially due to warmer temperatures than the mid-40s daytime and 30s at night, but I've also downsized some. My biggest issue is that I have some back issues (though I try not to use them as an excuse). But on the trail in mid-April, I was often pretty uncomfortable mid-back and between the shoulders, and feet often felt a bit like hamburger, although I don't think I was actually blistering. Anyway, that's why my question. Most of my weight reduction has been from going to a 20 degree bag (from a zero -- yeah I know, but I am a cold sleeper), going 4 oz less on my tent (from Tarptent Double Rainbow to Big Agnes Copper Spur UL 1), reducing from about 13 oz (Platypus) to about 4 oz (Smart Water bottle and Sawyer Mini filter w/o bag), and going from a Peak 2 rain jacket to a Marmot PreCip. Other items I've reduced/downsized as well, but I'm still wanting to get to 12-15 base weight and watch my consumables. Just trying to get to that sweet spot so the reduced weight helps me enjoy my hiking a little more. Keep the comments coming; I'm taking notes.
    It helps to know specifically what items are in each system: Shelter, Clothing, Sleep, Cook (well maybe not now) and maybe even First Aid/Repair/Toiletries. Last year when I was down in TN I encountered a guy (not Tipi!) loading his pack (ginormous beast) at the trail head and it included a first aid kit that must've weighed 3 lbs.

    If you can go from traditional tent to a trekking pole supported tarp type tent (Duplex, for instance) that'll save a bunch of weight, as will going to a really good quilt (10D shell with 850fp) vs a sleeping bag, and a lighter sleep mat (guessing, since we don't know specifically). Some people also use sleeping bag liners and heavy pillows.

    What is the rest of the clothing inventory? Clothes can be a deal breaker, especially for folks who see the need for specific sleeping clothes and other 'just in case' clothing.

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    Having a light big 4 . Shelter, sleeping bag or quilt, backpack, sleeping mat worked for me. I weigh everything. Saving a few oz on a few items adds up. May weigh less and just be as warm. I don’t pocket cheat ;0)

    thom

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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoRoads View Post
    Sorry, I meant I AM going stoveless.
    I agree it's less a weight saver and more a time/hassle saver.

    But curiously, for me it was also a volume saver, and it's what finally got me into the smallest, lightest packs and thus under the ten pound threshold. It was the lost weight of the pack itself that helped me.

    I also noticed the above-mentioned tendency to carry extra fuel, to overstock when it's available.
    "Throw a loaf of bread and a pound of tea in an old sack and jump over the back fence." John Muir on expedition planning

  8. #28
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    Total weight 30 lbs. with 2 liters of water and food. Only water for a given section takes it above that. Year round no matter where or what. But then, at 78, where and what are surely a big deal. And I hike solo, never splitting the weight by being "married" to a partner. I have driven myself sort of crazy having arrived at this method having used all the others ways to figure. So, when I leave home and hang the bag to weigh, it never ever hits 30. If it does, I have done something "stupid". And i dump all in floor and see what is going on.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by garlic08 View Post
    I agree it's less a weight saver and more a time/hassle saver.

    But curiously, for me it was also a volume saver, and it's what finally got me into the smallest, lightest packs and thus under the ten pound threshold. It was the lost weight of the pack itself that helped me.

    I also noticed the above-mentioned tendency to carry extra fuel, to overstock when it's available.
    This is the best assessment of going stove-less. With my own recent experimentation with it, I have found it is a wash as far as weight savings.
    Lonehiker (MRT '22)

  10. #30
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    Well, since you asked

    My backpacking list that gets me to 16 pounds base weight:
    My clothing system:The clothes on my back1 bandana2 pr polyester boxer shorts2 pr synthetic socksGoretex rain hatBug net for hat1 pr convertible pants1 synthetic long-sleeved pullover shirt1 synthetic short-sleeved shirtMarmot Precip rain jacketFood system:Food bag (nylon), 50' parachute cord, 3 small carabiners2 Opsack odor-proof plastic bagsSeveral plastic ziplock bagsPlastic knifeSpork1 24-oz Smart Water bottle1 Sawyer mini filter1 backwash plungerSleep system:1 Emergency blanket1 16-oz pee bottle 1 Big Agnes Copper Spur UL 1 tent1 20-degree EMS down sleeping bag1 rollup sleeping bag (6.7 oz)Gear:ULA Catalyst backpack (3 lbs)Black Diamond headlampSOG titanimu knife (0.4 oz)AWOL map pages (200 miles at a time)REI waterproof pack coverWhistlePersonal items:PhoneBackup charger, cable, plastic ziplock carrying bag3 extra AAA batteries for headlampTweezersNail clippers4 insecticide wipesToothbrush/toothpasteQtips (about 15)Lip balmDental flossToilet paper Sunscreen*Hand sanitizer*Biodegradable soap*(* repackaged in small plastic bottles)First Aid kit1 large gauze pad4" square moleskin10 Doxycycline tablets for tick bites (thanks, Doc)Antibiotic cream (3 very small containers)Medical tape (about 12" wound around a straw)Duct tape (about an arm's length wound around a straw)2 alcohol pads6 band-aids

  11. #31
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    Sorry for the way that posted. I had it in a nice separated list.

  12. #32
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    I look at my "skin out" weight (meaning how much I am carrying on my body - including pack, clothing I am wearing, shoes, poles). In this, I also include 2 L of water and food for four days. I hike between June to August only, so no winter gear. I have this down to under 23 pounds...

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoRoads View Post
    Well, since you asked

    My backpacking list that gets me to 16 pounds base weight:
    My clothing system:The clothes on my back1 bandana2 pr polyester boxer shorts2 pr synthetic socksGoretex rain hatBug net for hat1 pr convertible pants1 synthetic long-sleeved pullover shirt1 synthetic short-sleeved shirtMarmot Precip rain jacketFood system:Food bag (nylon), 50' parachute cord, 3 small carabiners2 Opsack odor-proof plastic bagsSeveral plastic ziplock bagsPlastic knifeSpork1 24-oz Smart Water bottle1 Sawyer mini filter1 backwash plungerSleep system:1 Emergency blanket1 16-oz pee bottle 1 Big Agnes Copper Spur UL 1 tent1 20-degree EMS down sleeping bag1 rollup sleeping bag (6.7 oz)Gear:ULA Catalyst backpack (3 lbs)Black Diamond headlampSOG titanimu knife (0.4 oz)AWOL map pages (200 miles at a time)REI waterproof pack coverWhistlePersonal items:PhoneBackup charger, cable, plastic ziplock carrying bag3 extra AAA batteries for headlampTweezersNail clippers4 insecticide wipesToothbrush/toothpasteQtips (about 15)Lip balmDental flossToilet paper Sunscreen*Hand sanitizer*Biodegradable soap*(* repackaged in small plastic bottles)First Aid kit1 large gauze pad4" square moleskin10 Doxycycline tablets for tick bites (thanks, Doc)Antibiotic cream (3 very small containers)Medical tape (about 12" wound around a straw)Duct tape (about an arm's length wound around a straw)2 alcohol pads6 band-aids
    IMO going back to what Thom (Cheyou) said about the big 4 is the place to start because, as is often said, those are the 'low-hanging fruit' with the biggest potential for weight savings. Also it's very useful to have a good, accurate scale to see what things weigh, and use a spreadsheet app such as geargrams or lighterpack. But even if you don't use a scale or use a spreadsheet app, and you get the lightest items in each of those categories then you'll still be doing well even if you don't know the exact number.

    For instance, and going back to Thom's suggestion, compare just the ULA Catalyst (48oz) and the Arc Haul (24oz), and the Copper Spur (35oz) and the Solplex (15.5oz), and you're looking at a weight savings of 43.5oz (2.7 lbs) with only 2 items! I don't know which EMS 20deg bag you have, but the Mountain Light is listed at 2lb 8oz (40oz, without stuff sack) while an Enlightened Equipment Enigma 20deg quilt weighs about 20oz, so there's another 1.25 lbs, for a total of 4 lbs.

    I realize replacing all these things isn't cheap, but these are examples of actual weight savings.

    Moving on to smaller items, 50 feet of paracord is actually fairly heavy compared to 1.8mm dyneema, and there are some things like a pee bottle that I just do without... I just get up and go water the vegetation for that.

    And even things like carabiners..... do you really need those, or could you figure out a work-around?
    Last edited by cmoulder; 05-03-2018 at 15:54.

  14. #34
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    I must say that from the suggestions in the last two pages, I've been able to reduce my pack weight from 37 pounds (from my 100 mile trip in mid-April), down to 22.5 pounds (at least measuring somewhat inaccurately on my bathroom scale). MUCH appreciation to everyone for your suggestions to this point. Now with cmoulder's detailed post, it seems likely that I can take it to sub-20! So I'm really excited for my next trip to try out my total pack makeover. But the pee bottle will have to stay

  15. #35
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    Oh, and cmoulder, I do have an ounce scale, which I've used extensively, but was not aware of lighterpack.com. I will be using those tools to get a much more accurate measure of my weight. Thanks!

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoRoads View Post
    I must say that from the suggestions in the last two pages, I've been able to reduce my pack weight from 37 pounds (from my 100 mile trip in mid-April), down to 22.5 pounds (at least measuring somewhat inaccurately on my bathroom scale). MUCH appreciation to everyone for your suggestions to this point. Now with cmoulder's detailed post, it seems likely that I can take it to sub-20! So I'm really excited for my next trip to try out my total pack makeover. But the pee bottle will have to stay
    Wow, 14.5lb is a big deal! Your back and knees are gonna thank you.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    Wow, 14.5lb is a big deal! Your back and knees are gonna thank you.
    Yeah, we can argue about ounces all day long, but ~15 pounds is really noticeable.
    Ken B
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  18. #38

    Default Base Weight

    Quote Originally Posted by TwoRoads View Post
    What is your ideal target for base weight (without food and water) and what is your not-to-exceed?
    My ideal target is to hike with no weight on my back at all. But since that isn’t reasonable, I want as little weight as possible. That said, I’m always looking for ways to reduce pack weight.

    Once you get the big four down, then take a hard look at everything else in your kit. We can hold each individual item in our hand and say, “that doesn’t weight much”, and that would be true. What’s difficult to understand is the weight of the individual item doesn’t go away, and is additive to every other item. I’m sure you already know this but I’m just stating the fact.

    I take the approach to weight every single item, no matter how small or light. A lot of folks on here will laugh at me for this. Once you weigh an item, ask first if you really need it, then if yes, is there something else that could be substituted in its place. Can the weight for a 1 ounce item be replaced with a half ounce item?

    If that seems useless, consider that if you did that with every item in your pack, you’d cut your total pack weight in half.

    Good suggestion above about the 3 carabiners. Why do you need those? Leave them home and save 100% of the weight on those. Also why carry hand sanitizer AND soap? One or the other.

    Also, why duct tape AND medical tape. Try Luekotape for both.

    Oh, to answer your not to exceed, for me it’s 22 lbs. max with five days food and a half liter of water. Almost never carry more than a half liter. I just tank up every two hours.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Last edited by Deacon; 05-07-2018 at 15:40.

  19. #39
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    Going stoveless is also not necessary, unless you simply prefer it, of course.

    I find that I really need my hot coffee and cereal in the morning, and I'm not happy without a hot dinner.

    But a stove setup needn't be heavy. Pictured below is my setup with Toaks 550, inCycle cup, Esbit tri-wing stove, silicone Hot Lips, lighter, GSI spoon and stuff sack which together weigh 128g (4.52oz) and fuel weight (2x 14g tabs and 1x 5g tab) is about 35g (1.25oz) per day, so the total stove/fuel weight for a 4- or 5-night trip is going to be about 10oz. If I want to use alcohol, it's easy enough switch to the Starlyte with pot support and denatured alcohol for fuel, which weighs about 3-4 total oz more because BTUs per unit of alcohol is less than that of Esbit, and some sort of bottle is needed for alcohol. Still not too shabby, though!!

    Esbit_UL_setup_01.jpg
    Last edited by cmoulder; 05-08-2018 at 07:24.

  20. #40
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    Pretty much have finished putting in my new ultralight backpacking list into https://lighterpack.com. What a tool! My base weight is now 15.31 pounds (I don't have a comparison (before) weight; total weight without "worn weight" is 22.2 pounds (before total weight was 37 pounds), so I was very close when I said I had reduced total weight by 15 pounds. I'm seriously considering the Zpacks ArcBlast AND the Solplex tent. Am looking at the Enlightened Equipment Enigma with some interest, but just the other two would put me sub-20 pounds total warm weather weight.

    I think I will stay stoveless, as I like the convenience factor and I'm building my options pretty well. However, cmoulder, I have to say my stove and pot combination was almost identical to yours.

    As far as looking at other ounce-saving options, I think that will be an ongoing thing, but the suggestions given have been very helpful. I already had questioned why I am carrying both soap and hand sanitizer, for example.

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