Sleep Setup for a GSMNP Section Hike

[Gambit McCrae]

unless i am mistaken, the rules state that the only people who can tent at shelter sites are people with AT thru hiker permits.

is that not the rule?

in big cranky's example he is camping in a tent without said permit, is he not?

end of story.

and ill say again, i agree it isnt going to be enforced that way, but lets not pretend that isnt what the rules state

It is enforced that way, I have seen it on 2 of my trips. Once at mollies ridge, once at Tricorner knob. It was enforced by different ridgerunners and on top of that, the very first trip I ever took on my own in the park ended after night 1 because I didn't even know you had to have a permit and so the ridgerunner told me I had to exit the trail at russel field and he radio'd the cades cove visitor center so they could watch for me. When I got down there, there was a park ranger waiting to walk me to center so I could use the phone to call for a ride. It was a real pain the arse trying to get a ride from cades cove to Fontana dam let me tell ya. A friends mom had to drive from Johnson city to pick me up. Why the hell if he could radio down to the ranger station to taddle, could he not have radio'd down and gotten me a permit?! made it a positive learning experience? I had never been to GSMNP I did know of this so called permit system?! I digress, the park is strict and the rules are enforced, and that is the end of my story.

[TNhiker]

Why the hell if he could radio down to the ranger station to taddle, could he not have radio'd down and gotten me a permit?! made it a positive learning experience?

one could also say that it's up to the individual to know beforehand about the permits and all that...

after all, its been on the dollar map for decades that one needs to have a permit...............along with also being on the interwebs.....

[tdoczi]

yes............and ONLY if the shelter is full...

so someone with a shelter reservation permit who is found to be in a tent is violating that rule. shelter full or not.

i dont know how anyone can read it any other way

[TNhiker]

so someone with a shelter reservation permit who is found to be in a tent is violating that rule. shelter full or not.

if it's an AT thru hiker (and by the Park's definition of 50 miles before and 50 miles after)-----and the shelter is not full, and they have a permit, and they are in a tent-----then yes, they are in violation....


if its just someone with a permit for a night or two (a non thru hiker)-----and they are in a tent and not in the shelter----they are in violation......



the keys things are what type of permit it is and whether the shelter is full or not...


bottom line----the only people allowed to tent outside the shelter are thru hikers with permits and if the shelter is full......

[Starchild]

I would say since they can't use the hammock it is best not to take it at all, but a simple tarp. Even though shelters may be full, there is often space on the dirt floor inside that could be used (and is during thru season).

[MuddyWaters]

if it's an AT thru hiker (and by the Park's definition of 50 miles before and 50 miles after)-----and the shelter is not full, and they have a permit, and they are in a tent-----then yes, they are in violation....


if its just someone with a permit for a night or two (a non thru hiker)-----and they are in a tent and not in the shelter----they are in violation......



the keys things are what type of permit it is and whether the shelter is full or not...


bottom line----the only people allowed to tent outside the shelter are thru hikers with permits and if the shelter is full......

But.... The regulation is specific to Tents.
It does not actually say You must sleep in the shelter.
It says you are not allowed to use a tent.

It actually does not specifically say that you cannot use a hammock. In fact it states hammocks may not be attached to the shelter.

Nor does it say that you cannot sleep on the ground if you like, sans tent. One could argue that a bivy is a very small tent, but lack of one obviously is not.

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[TNhiker]

But.... The regulation is specific to Tents.

the regulation is for both tents and hammocks........


from the compendium ----

Hammocks may be set up in areas where tent use wouldbe suitable and are subject to the same regulations as tentuse. Hammocks must be strapped to trees using TreeSaver straps or other wide straps that will not cut intotrees. Hammocks may not be set up in areas whereresources would be trampled or otherwise compromised.Hammocks may not be set up inside shelters or attached toany part of shelters.

[Starchild]

...It does not actually say You must sleep in the shelter.
...

This reminds me of a work situation where a worker was sleeping when his super walked into the room and saw him. The super noting he was asleep acted to wake him. This guy held up his finger as to indicate a request for a moment please, then quickly did a catholic cross motion with hands and said 'amen'.

Note sure it it would work in a hammock.

[tdoczi]

This reminds me of a work situation where a worker was sleeping when his super walked into the room and saw him. The super noting he was asleep acted to wake him. This guy held up his finger as to indicate a request for a moment please, then quickly did a catholic cross motion with hands and said 'amen'.

Note sure it it would work in a hammock.

it begs something of an interesting question-

when people like matt kirk do their run across the whole park in one shot deal, do they need a camping permit?

you would think not. and if not, is there a regulation against sitting down in the dark with your back against a tree or rock?

[Starchild]

it begs something of an interesting question-

when people like matt kirk do their run across the whole park in one shot deal, do they need a camping permit?

you would think not. and if not, is there a regulation against sitting down in the dark with your back against a tree or rock?

There are interesting potential loopholes, including hiking at night and sleeping in the shelters during the day (I was told directly by my ATC supervisor incharge of the smokies section that a permit was not needed for this).

[TNhiker]

when people like matt kirk do their run across the whole park in one shot deal, do they need a camping permit?

as long as he doesnt stop to sleep, no permit is needed....

you would think not. and if not, is there a regulation against sitting down in the dark with your back against a tree or rock?

yeah........you cant do that...............thats considered sleeping and the park frowns on sleeping in other places besides a campsite (front or backcountry or shelter).........



point of reference----even taking a mid day nap at a shelter, needs a permit...

at leconte shelter-----i was sleeping in the shelter at 10 am (i did a night hike up to watch sun rise) and the ranger came by and woke me up and asked for permit...

and throughout the day---he kept checking my permit........as in, he came by 3 different times, and every time i had to show my permit............

[TNhiker]

including hiking at night and sleeping in the shelters during the day (I was told directly by my ATC supervisor incharge of the smokies section that a permit was not needed for this).

i was told by a park ranger that one needs to have a permit if they are taking a nap in a shelter or campsite during the day.....

[HooKooDooKu]

Let's keep in mind that not all laws are "written"...
There is "Statutory Law" (laws that are written) and there is "Common Law" (laws derived from custom and judicial precedent).

so someone with a shelter reservation permit who is found to be in a tent is violating that rule. shelter full or not.
i dont know how anyone can read it any other way

But by that logic, if you a come to a stop on the interstate because of traffic congestion, you're breaking the law and subject to being ticketed for violating the minimum speed limit (typically about 40mph on most interstates).

There are interesting potential loopholes, including hiking at night and sleeping in the shelters during the day (I was told directly by my ATC supervisor incharge of the smokies section that a permit was not needed for this).

I believe the ATC supervisor was wrong...

i was told by a park ranger that one needs to have a permit if they are taking a nap in a shelter or campsite during the day.....

...

is there a regulation against sitting down in the dark with your back against a tree or rock?

Another situation where "Common Law" rather than "Statutory Law" comes into play...

On the general subject of "day hikes", in many national parks (GSMNP among them), you don't need a permit to day hike. But if you are "day hiking" with a set of camping gear, "Common Law" sort of says you have the intent to camp and therefore need a permit. So simply walking around the back country with camping gear can prompt a ranger to ask for a camping permit, and if you don't have one, you'll be escorted out of the park (I was once walking around the visitor's center at Clingman's Dome with a back pack on and a ranger asked to see my permit).

This might also explain the seemingly conflicting statements between Starchild's comment and THhiker's comment...
I don't know, but I'll speculate...
If a ranger finds you at a shelter around noon taking a nap with no camping gear and you're within 5 to 8 miles of a trail head, you're day-hiking and simply taking a rest, NOT camping.
But if you're found napping at a shelter and you have a sleeping pad, cooking gear, etc, that implies you're camping (either here or somewhere else within a half days walk) and you better have a camping permit.

[bigcranky]

Wow, lots of angels on the head of the pin here.

Am I violating the rule if I tent with a section hiker permit? OK, sure.

Am I willing to try to throw someone out of the shelter who is already violating the permit system? Nope. Too many unstable people out there, some of them armed.

If the ranger shows up and throws out the unpermitted folks, I am happy to move into the shelter.

[HooKooDooKu]

Wow, lots of angels on the head of the pin here.

How many?

Am I violating the rule if I tent with a section hiker permit? OK, sure.

Am I willing to try to throw someone out of the shelter who is already violating the permit system? Nope. Too many unstable people out there, some of them armed.

If the ranger shows up and throws out the unpermitted folks, I am happy to move into the shelter.

Agreed

[tdoczi]

Let's keep in mind that not all laws are "written"...
There is "Statutory Law" (laws that are written) and there is "Common Law" (laws derived from custom and judicial precedent).


But by that logic, if you a come to a stop on the interstate because of traffic congestion, you're breaking the law and subject to being ticketed for violating the minimum speed limit (typically about 40mph on most interstates).


I believe the ATC supervisor was wrong...



Another situation where "Common Law" rather than "Statutory Law" comes into play...

On the general subject of "day hikes", in many national parks (GSMNP among them), you don't need a permit to day hike. But if you are "day hiking" with a set of camping gear, "Common Law" sort of says you have the intent to camp and therefore need a permit. So simply walking around the back country with camping gear can prompt a ranger to ask for a camping permit, and if you don't have one, you'll be escorted out of the park (I was once walking around the visitor's center at Clingman's Dome with a back pack on and a ranger asked to see my permit).

This might also explain the seemingly conflicting statements between Starchild's comment and THhiker's comment...
I don't know, but I'll speculate...
If a ranger finds you at a shelter around noon taking a nap with no camping gear and you're within 5 to 8 miles of a trail head, you're day-hiking and simply taking a rest, NOT camping.
But if you're found napping at a shelter and you have a sleeping pad, cooking gear, etc, that implies you're camping (either here or somewhere else within a half days walk) and you better have a camping permit.

the difference in my example is the rules spell out a remedy for the situation. the remedy being those without a reservation need to vacate.

now if you want to argue that having stated that you were present and had a reservation and requested those who did not to vacate and no one did that you are not the liable party, i'd agree.

but you cant just go "oh well shelter is full, guess its a tent for me!" because you secretly would rather sleep in your tent.

[tdoczi]

as for the "unstable people" angle, i guess i just feel like if i'm standing in front of a shelter full of 20 people, 18 of whom belong and 2 who do not, i'm going to win. no matter how crazy the 2 are

[TNhiker]

but you cant just go "oh well shelter is full, guess its a tent for me!" because you secretly would rather sleep in your tent.

and thats a problem in and among itself....

hikers have been known to arrive at a shelter mid day----wait til its full...........then go and set up a tent somewhere else......


and keep in mind----rules that are broken, will only lead to more rules.....

hence the new reservation system that was put in place a few years ago....

[JC13]

as for the "unstable people" angle, i guess i just feel like if i'm standing in front of a shelter full of 20 people, 18 of whom belong and 2 who do not, i'm going to win. no matter how crazy the 2 are

Everyone is 10 feet tall and bulletproof on the interwebz.

[Burrhead]

I was in the park in spring of 2014 and got to Silars Bald shelter and found it full of mostly thru hikers and 3 section hikers with permits for Silars Bald. I had a permit for Silars Bald that night but I was doing a loop using other campsites so I had my tent. I was fine with not packing into the shelter so I set my tent up. A ranger came through about two hours later, saw that the shelter was above capacity at this point, checked everyone's permit, I told him that I was fine using my tent and giving a spot to a thru hiker and he said that as long as the shelter was at or above capacity and the people tenting or in hammocks we're happy with the situation it was ok for section hikers to give up a place in the shelter and tent. I can't say that every ranger or ridgerunner will have this same attitude. It does make sense that if a shelter is full and everyone has a permit someone has to tent. It doesn't matter if it's a section or thru hiker. The point seems to be that the section hikers have to be happy about it. In fall of 2016 I camped at cs. 57 on deep Creek trail and two rangers came by around 6 in the evening checking permits and escorted some horse Packers out for not having permits. No idea if they received a fine or not. As to the point of this thread, I would give them a quick lesson on using a tarp and tell them to have a great trip.