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  1. #21
    ME => GA 19AT3 rickb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rain Man View Post
    Yep, the risk is exactly why the ATC provides a canoe ferry in the first place, due to hikers drowing over the years.
    This post sugggests that more than one hiker — prior to Michael Camiso — have drowned crossing the kennebec over the years.

    I do not believe that to be true.

  2. #22
    Some days, it's not worth chewing through the restraints.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    This post sugggests that more than one hiker — prior to Michael Camiso — have drowned crossing the kennebec over the years.

    I do not believe that to be true.
    Alice Ference, 1985

  3. #23
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    After my friend and I crossed in the canoe on August 5th last year, we stood on the bank looking for possible places to possibly ford.

    Just upstream there seemed to be a string of rocks in shallows that stretched about 3/4 of the way across, but then gave way to deeper water.

    I can see where that spot would tempt a hiker.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by peakbagger View Post
    It looks like it can be forded until they get out in the deeper sections, by that time no choice but to swim. Water this early in the year would have been too cold, without a wetsuit he would have lost control of his limbs in minutes. Add in big variations in daily water level due to demand for power and makes it a risky idea.

    These events are again why the canoe ferry is available and the schedule info well documented.



    Risky for that time of day, time of year, probably exactly where he attempted the ford, in today's ADHD soundbites only get er dun gotta go go go impatient demanding I watched a YouTube video so now know how to do whatever - build a house, fly a helicopter, etc I know better culture, and...It can and has been forded safely otherwise.



    There are YouTube vids on how to fly a helicopter, run a bulldozer, drive a tractor trailer, become your own dentist(never again needing to pay for a professional with 8 yrs accredited education), climb Mt Everest(without O2),...



    This could have been some of us making comments here, if we acted rashly.



    on a bright sunny day when a teenager almost drowned in less than 2 mins in a small pond at first wading into cold calm freshwater then having to swim less than 15 ft attempting to retrieve a favorite Mepps spinner stuck on a log in early April in NJ. Barely got back to the bank only 30 ft away after loosing all energy and almost all control of my limbs. Two friends were ready to jump in for me. Cold water saps energy quickly.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadeye View Post
    Alice Ference, 1985
    you are correct

  6. #26
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    from this article..

    https://thetrek.co/crossing-the-kennebec/


    “Every year we have some people who successfully ford across, but we have a higher number who try but do not make it across, and several of them have very dangerous experiences. Every year for the last nine years I have seen at least one or two who would have died without intervention from myself or another hiker.”

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketsocks View Post
    Cold water and exhaustion kills when panic sets in, in water temps he prolly would’ve made it no problem, although a little further down stream than most might like.
    in warmer water temps...ugh, blew the shift...another demerit!

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketsocks View Post
    in warmer water temps...ugh, blew the shift...another demerit!
    Blame the technology, that's what I​ always do.
    "It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how." ---Dr. Seuss

  9. #29
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    As someone who once stood in an empty Kennebec river after Harris station shut the water off while we were training to be white water guides, I know first hand how fast that water comes up when the water is turned back on. I will never ford that river. There was a fisherman's drowned in that same area because the water was low and he wandered across. When the water came back up, he was swept away. It was around the same time as Alive Terrence.

  10. #30
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    i've forded 6 times. good stuff. always around 7 am

  11. #31

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    This is Michael Camiso’s sister. My brother was not inherently reckless, stupid or “rash.” He was a disabled veteran, who suffered from a TBI resulting in mental illness and early onset dementia. He had stunning moments of clarity. Before his injury and illness he was a brilliant, beautiful, healthy man who competed in triathlons. He trained in far harsher conditions in Fairbanks, AK, and undertook scouts and Rangers training. While he was ill at the time that he journeyed for the SECOND time along the Appalachian Trail, he was trained, fit and ready. He trained for HOURS a day for months before he began, and he trekked farther than many have had the pleasure of enjoying before he tragically lost his life trying to ford the river.

    There was no ferry the day that my brother lost his life. A police officer reportedly told told him that the ferry could not run because the river was at flood levels. My brother then informed the police officer that he intended to cross on his own. This officer told my brother that he couldn’t, that it was too dangerous. Michael was a paranoid schizophrenic, an unfortunate byproduct of his brain injury. He reacted confrontationally, erratically in conversation with the officer, BECAUSE he was a paranoid schizophrenic. What did that officer do, in the face of a clearly irrational man, who told him that he was going to cross even though they told him he couldn’t? They LEFT. My brother was a human being with a tragic illness. He was also a hero with the type of fortitude, spirit and heart that most men NEVER achieve. EVER. My family is utterly heartbroken, and the world lost a beautiful man with an indomitable spirit. Unspeakably tragic, particularly where authorities apparently knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that an irrational, paranoid man intended to enter the raging waters of a river that he surely could not survive, and they did nothing.

  12. #32

    Default Michael Camiso’s sister

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    These events are again why the canoe ferry is available and the schedule info well documented.



    Risky for that time of day, time of year, probably exactly where he attempted the ford, in today's ADHD soundbites only get er dun gotta go go go impatient demanding I watched a YouTube video so now know how to do whatever - build a house, fly a helicopter, etc I know better culture, and...It can and has been forded safely otherwise.



    There are YouTube vids on how to fly a helicopter, run a bulldozer, drive a tractor trailer, become your own dentist(never again needing to pay for a professional with 8 yrs accredited education), climb Mt Everest(without O2),...



    This could have been some of us making comments here, if we acted rashly.



    on a bright sunny day when a teenager almost drowned in less than 2 mins in a small pond at first wading into cold calm freshwater then having to swim less than 15 ft attempting to retrieve a favorite Mepps spinner stuck on a log in early April in NJ. Barely got back to the bank only 30 ft away after loosing all energy and almost all control of my limbs. Two friends were ready to jump in for me. Cold water saps energy quickly.
    This is Michael Camiso’s sister. My brother was not inherently reckless, stupid or “rash.” He was a disabled veteran, who suffered from a TBI resulting in mental illness and early onset dementia. He had stunning moments of clarity. Before his injury and illness he was a brilliant, beautiful, healthy man who competed in triathlons. He trained in far harsher conditions in Fairbanks, AK, and undertook scouts and Rangers training. While he was ill at the time that he journeyed for the SECOND time along the Appalachian Trail, he was trained, fit and ready. He trained for HOURS a day for months before he began, and he trekked farther than many have had the pleasure of enjoying before he tragically lost his life trying to ford the river.

    There was no ferry the day that my brother lost his life. A police officer reportedly told told him that the ferry could not run because the river was at flood levels. My brother then informed the police officer that he intended to cross on his own. This officer told my brother that he couldn’t, that it was too dangerous. Michael was a paranoid schizophrenic, an unfortunate byproduct of his brain injury. He reacted confrontationally, erratically in conversation with the officer, BECAUSE he was a paranoid schizophrenic. What did that officer do, in the face of a clearly irrational man, who told him that he was going to cross even though they told him he couldn’t? They LEFT. My brother was a human being with a tragic illness. He was also a hero with the type of fortitude, spirit and heart that most men NEVER achieve. EVER. My family is utterly heartbroken, and the world lost a beautiful man with an indomitable spirit. Unspeakably tragic, particularly where authorities apparently knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that an irrational, paranoid man intended to enter the raging waters of a river that he surely could not survive, and they did nothing.

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikkicam View Post
    This is Michael Camiso’s sister. My brother was not inherently reckless, stupid or “rash.” He was a disabled veteran, who suffered from a TBI resulting in mental illness and early onset dementia. He had stunning moments of clarity. Before his injury and illness he was a brilliant, beautiful, healthy man who competed in triathlons. He trained in far harsher conditions in Fairbanks, AK, and undertook scouts and Rangers training. While he was ill at the time that he journeyed for the SECOND time along the Appalachian Trail, he was trained, fit and ready. He trained for HOURS a day for months before he began, and he trekked farther than many have had the pleasure of enjoying before he tragically lost his life trying to ford the river.

    There was no ferry the day that my brother lost his life. A police officer reportedly told told him that the ferry could not run because the river was at flood levels. My brother then informed the police officer that he intended to cross on his own. This officer told my brother that he couldn’t, that it was too dangerous. Michael was a paranoid schizophrenic, an unfortunate byproduct of his brain injury. He reacted confrontationally, erratically in conversation with the officer, BECAUSE he was a paranoid schizophrenic. What did that officer do, in the face of a clearly irrational man, who told him that he was going to cross even though they told him he couldn’t? They LEFT. My brother was a human being with a tragic illness. He was also a hero with the type of fortitude, spirit and heart that most men NEVER achieve. EVER. My family is utterly heartbroken, and the world lost a beautiful man with an indomitable spirit. Unspeakably tragic, particularly where authorities apparently knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that an irrational, paranoid man intended to enter the raging waters of a river that he surely could not survive, and they did nothing.
    Thank you for providing missing details.
    There is not a person here that is not sorry about your brother.

    Everyone just wants to learn from others experiences, and it takes discussion to do that. While such can come across as insensitive to the victim or family, its purpose is to help others avoid similar. There always will be people who choose to cross on their own.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikkicam View Post
    This is Michael Camiso’s sister. My brother was not inherently reckless, stupid or “rash.” He was a disabled veteran, who suffered from a TBI resulting in mental illness and early onset dementia. He had stunning moments of clarity. Before his injury and illness he was a brilliant, beautiful, healthy man who competed in triathlons. He trained in far harsher conditions in Fairbanks, AK, and undertook scouts and Rangers training. While he was ill at the time that he journeyed for the SECOND time along the Appalachian Trail, he was trained, fit and ready. He trained for HOURS a day for months before he began, and he trekked farther than many have had the pleasure of enjoying before he tragically lost his life trying to ford the river.

    There was no ferry the day that my brother lost his life. A police officer reportedly told told him that the ferry could not run because the river was at flood levels. My brother then informed the police officer that he intended to cross on his own. This officer told my brother that he couldn’t, that it was too dangerous. Michael was a paranoid schizophrenic, an unfortunate byproduct of his brain injury. He reacted confrontationally, erratically in conversation with the officer, BECAUSE he was a paranoid schizophrenic. What did that officer do, in the face of a clearly irrational man, who told him that he was going to cross even though they told him he couldn’t? They LEFT. My brother was a human being with a tragic illness. He was also a hero with the type of fortitude, spirit and heart that most men NEVER achieve. EVER. My family is utterly heartbroken, and the world lost a beautiful man with an indomitable spirit. Unspeakably tragic, particularly where authorities apparently knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that an irrational, paranoid man intended to enter the raging waters of a river that he surely could not survive, and they did nothing.
    Don't take anything you read here to heart. White Blaze is full of finger-wagging, self-appointed experts who are quick to criticize and pontificate without benefit of actually knowing the facts.

  15. #35

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    Every guidebook says do not ford.
    There are posters at every lean-to north and south of there that say do not ford.
    There are signs in several spots on both banks that say do not ford.
    We're told the hiker was spoken to in person and told not to ford.

    I believe the authorities did what they could, so let's not blame them.
    Teej

    "[ATers] represent three percent of our use and about twenty percent of our effort," retired Baxter Park Director Jensen Bissell.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJ aka Teej View Post
    ...

    I believe the authorities did what they could, so let's not blame them.
    While we shouldn't blame them, I don't believe that it has been established that they did all they could. It is often (always?) their responsibility to evaluate the mental health of a individual and make a judgement call if they are a danger to themselves, and take appropriate action including hospitalization for evaluation by a mental health professional. I think it's fair to review their procedures and training to see if there was anything that could or should have been done in cases like this to hopefully avoid future tragedy. I think it's safe to say if they took such a action this man would still be alive.

  17. #37

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    Good history here of the crossing:
    (And doyle, while controversial, has crossed more than any other person most likely. He claimed about 40 times around 15 yrs ago)



    https://thetrek.co/crossing-the-kennebec/

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchild View Post
    While we shouldn't blame them, I don't believe that it has been established that they did all they could.
    Every guidebook says do not ford. < Citing ATC and MATC
    There are posters at every lean-to north and south of there that say do not ford. < MATC
    There are signs in several spots on both banks that say do not ford. <MATC
    We're told the hiker was spoken to in person and told not to ford. < LEO (?)

    I believe the authorities did what they could.

    Aside from standing on both banks 24/7/365 doing physical and mental evaluations, what more could be done?
    Teej

    "[ATers] represent three percent of our use and about twenty percent of our effort," retired Baxter Park Director Jensen Bissell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TJ aka Teej View Post
    Should the Maine State Police stake out the next Doyle slackpack tour, and arrest him as he enters the water?
    On what grounds?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TJ aka Teej View Post
    ....

    Aside from standing on both banks 24/7/365 doing physical and mental evaluations, what more could be done?
    That's some thinking there, perhaps that is what should be done, but that seems to be a bit too far to me but to each their own. It would certainly speed up with rescues to have them on site, on both sides of the river, I'll give you that. Perhaps they could help hikers cross, and relieve the bottleneck during the crowed times when the bubble comes thru. (this was a bit sarcastic, but your reply seemed to be also)

    You seem to be missing the point that they met him and he relayed his intentions to them, was warned about the deadly conditions and insisted that he was going to do that anyway.

    I think it's incumbent for the authorities to be able to do a preliminary assessment at the time that he reveals his determination to cross the Kennebec after he hears that the water is too high, fast and cold to make it at this time of the year (not that it's good at any time). I do believe such a prelim assessment as to if they are a danger to others or themselves is usually part of such a job and their obligation (perhaps it's not in Manie, but it is in other states).

    If it's not part of their job, we should consider including it and get them the training, if it is we should look as to why that didn't prevent this death. Yes we need to look at what could have been done, if anything, since the authorities did have this opportunity.

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