Permethrin

[Nimblewill]

Permethrin exposure is linked to development of Parkinson's disease, among others. It's a grim diagnosis, especially in the later stages of the disease. The toxin permethrin, like many insecticides, destroys the part of the brain that controls movement.

That anyone would voluntarily use this product, especially on clothing or near their body, is shocking. While most insects have simple robust nerve systems, the more complex and subtle operations in human's nervous systems get altered in all kinds of ways from pesticide exposure. This rsults in cogitive changes, usually impairments in memory and inability to multi-task, not just movement disorders.

For those of you performing chemical warfare experiments on yourselves, please sign up or create a disease registry so the later-life effects of your poison exposure can be correlated. And don't forget your kids, if you choose to have any. Their odds of being "normal" will be reduced.

We're living in a period when denying science and just making up stuff is how our party in power operates. Ignore the truth of the effects of ingestion, absorption, and inhalation of poisons--this is a de facto poison-and you'll see the effects eventually.

[Time Zone]

Permethrin exposure is linked to development of Parkinson's disease, among others. It's a grim diagnosis, especially in the later stages of the disease. The toxin permethrin, like many insecticides, destroys the part of the brain that controls movement.

That anyone would voluntarily use this product, especially on clothing or near their body, is shocking. While most insects have simple robust nerve systems, the more complex and subtle operations in human's nervous systems get altered in all kinds of ways from pesticide exposure. This rsults in cogitive changes, usually impairments in memory and inability to multi-task, not just movement disorders.


For those of you performing chemical warfare experiments on yourselves, please sign up or create a disease registry so the later-life effects of your poison exposure can be correlated. And don't forget your kids, if you choose to have any. Their odds of being "normal" will be reduced.

We're living in a period when denying science and just making up stuff is how our party in power operates. Ignore the truth of the effects of ingestion, absorption, and inhalation of poisons--this is a de facto poison-and you'll see the effects eventually.

*citation needed.

[Talk about science denial. Or are you a cat or a fish? If so, my apologies ... you are right to be concerned. ]

[Nimblewill]

*citation needed.

[Talk about science denial. Or are you a cat or a fish? If so, my apologies ... you are right to be concerned. ]

I don't follow your cat or fish remark. Go ahead and soak up if you wish. And spray the kids. Don't let translational research in like or unlike life forms discourage the convenience of using poisons. And certainly don't let epidemiological evidence or clinical research on the very effects I offered information on dissuade you from using poisons. It's just science, and that's not even used in our government agencies decision making. You are free to do whatever. Parents are even free to poison your kids, with impunity.

Here's a principal researcher name: Jeffrey R. Bloomquist. One of many who make this connection: nerve poisons that kill little creatures also harm humans.

Study Of Insecticide Neurotoxicity Yields Clues To Onset Of Parkinson's...

https://vtnews.vt.edu/articles/2003/03/2003-18.html


Mar 24, 2003 - Jeffrey R. Bloomquist, a neurotoxicologist and associate professor in the ... in mice exposed to various doses of the insecticide permethrin.

Here's a BBC article that discusses specifically this toxic and Aprkinsons--low doses cause more cumulative harm as is the case with many toxics.

For more on neurological illnesses and pesticides, Beyond Pesticides is a great resource, linking peer reviewed science and our exposures.

[chef4]

There are a fair number of epidemiological research studies linking pesticides to Parkinsonism; common limitations of these include the difficulty of determining the total exposure, and how the diagnosis is made or confirmed. Therefore it makes sense to be cautious with permethrin, particularly keeping it out of your gastrointestinal system, where it is highly absorbed. You have to balance the risk of tick borne disease with this chemical risk. Skin absorption is likely to be higher when the permethrin is in tight clothing. You should also be very careful if considering using DEET with permethrin, as animal studies have show that DEET can markedly increase skin absorption of pyrethroids. For the occasional hiker in high risk areas, the insect repellants are likely worth it. If you get longterm exposure through very frequent use when backpacking, there is a concern that your risk is higher. However, the lifelong risk of Parkinsonism is only increased modestly in these research studies, it is not like you have a 50% risk of getting it.

[SC_Forester]

I am always disappointed with the press release version of research reports. I know in the liquid form permethrin is pretty bad stuff and is often sprayed directly on animals; acutely toxic to fish and cats. Curious to the exposure once it is bonded to clothing. If this data is not available it soon will be now that most US military field uniforms are now treated. I would error on the side of using only products made for fabrics.
I watched my Grandmother die of Parkinsons and I personally have had/have Lyme. Between Parkinson's and chronic Lyme pick your slow terrible end of life spiral. But sitting an your couch all day has its own risks and will probably die sooner.

[Time Zone]

Nimblewill,

I'm not sure you have a firm grasp on how science and science policy is supposed to work. A single, 15-year old study on mice, described in a presentation, does not by itself overturn FDA studies establishing the safety and efficacy of permethrin topically applied on humans for treatment of lice, nor the application of permethrin to clothing as an insecticide or repellent. To name just a few issues, one should balance that one presentation against peer review and critique of method/analysis/interpretation, reproducibility of the study and results, formation of consensus among experts, other studies showing multiple lines of evidence pointing in another direction, plausible mechanism of action, trials on primates and perhaps humans (if practical, else observational studies), etc. No one study is conclusive of anything.

Funny you warn of absorption - permethrin is not absorbed well at all through human skin - that's one solid reason why it's approved for topical use!

You are throwing around incendiary phrases like "poisoning your kids" and "performing chemical warfare experiments on yourself" - the language of a troll or a fearmonger. In either case, I suggest you take your evidence to the nearest regulatory authority, to which our society has delegated responsibility for figuring out issues like this, and make your case. In the meantime, I'll continue to use FDA and EPA approved products and protocols unless and until I have good reason to suppose they've missed something.

By the way, I do take the risks of permethrin seriously and that's why I keep it away from my cats. It is highly toxic to cats - not dogs, though. Even with cats, the risk is only when it's wet, not dry. These distinctions and subtleties seem to be lost on you. The world is not black and white. Pesticides are not wholly good or bad; there's risks and rewards to using them. And the consensus of the best experts on these matters is that certain permethrin sprays and treatments are safe for humans when used as directed.

[Time Zone]

As an addendum, the World Health Organization lists permethrin among their model list of essential medicines ("most effective and safe").

[nsherry61]

Let's put these permethrin toxicity studies into context.
1) The only ones with reasonable controls are on rats, not people.
2) The rats were fed the equivalent of an adult person drinking 200 ml of Sawyer's spray-on permethrin every day from the time they were born until probably the equivalent of about 8 years old (21 days of a rat's life).
3) Direct application of liquid permethrin onto your skin leads to a 1% absorption of permethrin into your system which is rapidly broken down to undetectable levels in a matter of hours. So, you would have to apply what you put on your cloths directly to your skin every day for 100 days to absorb the equivalent amount of permethrin fed to those rats every day.
4) Permethrin adheres VERY strongly to fabrics so there is almost no transfer of permethrin from fabrics to your skin.
5) The correlation studies on people that show a correlation between people that work in an environment with significant permethrin exposure and parkinson's cannot show a direct cause, and even if their is a true cause and effect relationship, these people are dealing with highly concentrated liquid permethrin exposure over years, NOT just contact with permethrin bound to fabrics.

As things go, permethrin has been shown to be surprisingly benign at the levels of exposure experienced in the outdoor industry.

[Meenkya]

Dropped mike...

[spfleisig]

Dropped mike...

Well played....

[chef4]

The problem with epidemiologic studies is they're difficult to control, and experiments on people would be unethical. I think I would just be careful with permethrin-treated hats/bandannas, and not spray deet on the clothing (although not sure why you would want to do that). It seems low risk for loose clothing, packs, etc and is quite effective. Most ticks are going to cling to your legs and climb, not drop on you.

[Leo L.]

After I've learned about Permethrin here at WB a few years back, I'm using it on my hiking pants and never had a tick biting into the skin again.
One day this May we headed along deer tracks through high grass crossing many streams. I went ahead, big lots of ticks gathering on my pants at every stream crossing, but all of them gone after a few minutes.
My wife, walking behind me with untreated short pants, carried several with her down to the forest road where we took off and shaked out the clothes to get rids of the ticks. Back home, she still had four lodged into the skin later back home.

We have a very severe tick season this year, and Permethrin threated pants make all the difference.
Its everybodys own choice between the very concrete danger of Lyme and FSME, and possible risk from the Permethrin.
I took the Permethrin route and am happy with it.
But I treat my pants only, no other pieces or clothing.

[Mudsock]

Well I know one thing for certain. i soaked my underwear in permethrin and my wife has been unable to conceive since. i am 69, she is 68. Sarah was 90 and Abraham was over a hundred when she conceived. But then, they didn't use permethrin on any of their garments.

[trailmercury]

Well I know one thing for certain. i soaked my underwear in permethrin and my wife has been unable to conceive since. i am 69, she is 68. Sarah was 90 and Abraham was over a hundred when she conceived. But then, they didn't use permethrin on any of their garments.

Permethrin causes menopause?

[Time Zone]

Permethrin was first described in an article in Nature in November, 1973.

Just six months later, Duke Ellington died.

Be careful with this stuff, folks.

[Mudsock]

Permethrin causes menopause?

I am not sure. I do know it does not cause ED.

[jackwagon]

Nimblewell quoted Study Of Insecticide Neurotoxicity Yields Clues To Onset Of Parkinson's...

https://vtnews.vt.edu/articles/2003/03/2003-18.html

In there, it states, "Our studies have documented low-dose effects of permethrin, doses below one-one thousandth of a lethal dose for a mouse, with effects on those brain pathways involved in Parkinson's Disease,"

So what's 1/1000 of a lethal dose? I found this in a Pesticide Information Project of Cooperative Extension Offices of Cornell University (http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles...thrin-ext.html) "The amount of permethrin that is lethal to one-half (50%) of experimental animals exposed to it is referred to as the lethal dose fifty, or LD50, of this insecticide. The oral LD50 for technical permethrin in rats is 430 to 4,000 milligrams per kilogram (mg/kg). Its LD50 is over 270 mg/kg when injected into the veins."

Part of what makes Permethrin safe is that it bonds to the fibers of clothing and sticks there well. I would be hard pressed to get a human-lethal dose from wearing dry permethrin-treated clothing.

I think my likelihood of getting 1/1000th of a lethal dose (for a human) of Permethrin to possibly contribute to later-life Parkinsons is infinetesimal when compared to the likelihood of getting a tick-borne disease that could more likely screw me up for the rest of my life if I avoid using Permethrin.

[chef4]

I'm not ready to toss out my eco mesh hiking pants and sit on the couch. And that couch is unfortunately treated with a stain prevention chemical that is both more easily absorbed and likely more toxic than permethrin. Everyone can evaluate the risks and just make their own choices.

[KCNC]

I read a study (hardcopy - don't have it to cite) that indicated Permethrin and Picaridin used in conjunction reduced the risk of picking up a tick by ~85%.

With Powassan on the rise in addition to the spread of Lyme and alpha-gal, all piled on my childhood phobia of Rocky Mt Spotted Fever - I'll take my chances with the pesticides - underwear and all.

I have heard some interesting anecdotal reports from three people who are all on Metropolol (Beta-blocker) who have found 4 ticks among them in the last few years - all dead.

Now, to mix up a batch and dunk all my "stuff" in preparation for my hike later this month.

At least I don't have to worry about ED!

[BuckeyeBill]

If you avoided everything that was bad for you, you should just dig a hole and have someone cover you in dirt.