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  1. #41

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    Hi Peter and others, this is Stef from Legends Tracking (www.legendstracking.com). Allow me to answer some of the questions that have come up regarding Karel’s live gps tracking.

    1. As Peter mentioned in a previous post, Karel is not using a SPOT or a Garmin InReach device, but a tracker that gets its position from a satellite (just as the SPOT or a Garmin inReach) and then sends that position to the application server via mobile network (unlike SPOT or Garmin InReach which also use satellite for that). There are multiple reasons why we (and Karel) use this type of tracker (1) as we all know, the quality of the SPOT satellite network and reception is not that good (in numerous tests where a runner had both a SPOT and our device, our device significantly outperformed the SPOT). (2) The SPOT and Garmin are about 4 times heavier compared to our tracker. (3) Using our tracker allows for a lot more positions to be taken instead of the 2.5min, 5min or 10min standard intervals. (4) Karel used exactly the same tracker during his PCT attempt in 2016, which worked fully as expected.

    2. When there is no mobile network available, the tracker will store the positions received from the satellite (every minute) in an internal buffer, and the tracker can store up to 3000 locations in its buffer. As soon as there is mobile network again, the tracker gives priority to new positions (live) but then also starts emptying its buffer. For example, today between 10.57am and 11.22am, there was on and off mobile reception and the tracker was able to send 22 new positions, and about 200 positions out of the buffer (Please note that you can see the difference between ‘live’ points and ‘buffered’ points by the dark and light blue colour). Network signal was not strong enough and not available for enough time to send all lines out of the buffer, so they will come in during the next moment of mobile reception. Please note that Karel has two trackers, meaning 6000 possible buffer lines, accounting for 100hours (and since the tracker is turned off at night, this should be good for a couple days each time). UPDATE: while writing this, another set of positions has been sent from the buffer.

    Karel1.png
    Karel2.png

    3. Unfortunately, compared to 2016 on the Pacific Crest Trail, all mobile providers except T-Mobile, have de-activated GPRS (2G) networks in the United States. We should have known that, but didn’t, so we’re to blame for that. This explains why the mobile reception for the trackers (so not for his facebook or instagram or other stuff, which I assume he’s doing with a mobile phone) is so low at the moment. Here in Europe, where Legends Tracking mainly operates and where we have ca. 200 events each year, sometimes events with more than 500 participants with a tracker at the same time, every country has GPRS (2G), and will have so at least for the next 10 years.

    4. For now, we will have to hope that from time to time Karel passes a zone with T-Mobile network coverage, so that his positions can be sent to our servers (and immediately automatically displayed on the tracking website). Next week, Karel’s wife will be coming to the US as well, and she will bring 2 new trackers that also operate on UTSM (3G), which will drastically increase the ‘live’ coverage of Karel’s adventure, because then the tracker can use any mobile provider again.

    5. As a side note, please see below an image of the locations that Scott Jurek (previous record holder) shared on his Garmin InReach page during the first 14! days (each blue dot is a location).
    Karel3.png
    The image below is a detail of Scott’s tracking data the section where Karel is at the moment. Indeed, you see it correctly, no tracking at all from Scott in this section.
    Karel4.png

    6. As a second side note, when looking at the tracking data of Joe (Stringbean) McConaughy, which we received from Joe himself, I can see that during the first 6 days, there were in total 17 positions send with his SPOT. Looking at both the quality of data from Joe and Scott (unfortunately we couldn’t get the data of Karl Meltzer), I don’t think Karel is doing bad in providing data.

    7. As a third and last side note, for those having issues with the kilometer markers, get used to how things are done in the rest of the world 
    Don’t hesitate to ask more questions about the platform and the technology. Please note that I’m not going to answer on other questions regarding Karel’s FKT, since that is fully up to him and his crew of course.

  2. #42

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    Stef, thanks for taking the time to clarify a lot of the background info here!

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    Quote Originally Posted by stefschuermans View Post
    Don’t hesitate to ask more questions about the platform and the technology.
    Stef, It looks as if you have the files, so is trackleaders still planning to add Scott's and Joe's historical NOBO tracks to the participants list of the map (for comparison purposes)? Thank you for helping to walk us through the learning curve. Good luck to Karel on his quest to become a 2000-miler, or should I now say 3500-kilometerer?!

  4. #44
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    The proper beer for sorting things out remains the same:
    backwoods.jpg

    Though rotating photos remains an obstacle.

    Nobody wants to be a referee... I'd rather drink and sew things.
    Besides everyone knows my specialty is concise posts well grounded in reality. I think we'd all prefer I stick to that

    Until folks turn in solid and complete trips from start to finish... questions will remain.

    As the sport grows, and more folks learn what that truly means I think the concept of community review gets closer each year.
    Especially as the fan base becomes more aware of, and less tolerant towards, shenanigans.
    I also think having these discussions publicly helps folks understand better what is involved.

    Though it would be helpful if the actual participants would.

    In the meantime...
    I drink. And I know things.

  5. #45
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    Stef-

    Merci or Dank u to you for jumping in... language in Belgium is as hard as Kilometers for us. Though your beer remains deliciously and pleasantly complicated.

    It was a bit strange to us here during Jurek's high profile attempt why Garmin didn't provide a staff member or some sort of PR person to help promote their service... so well done on that to your company. Overall Jurek's trip was a missed opportunity to highlight the tracking and if your service is superior I wish you luck in taking this opportunity to promote it.

    How is your device powered? Battery life?
    I assume Karel is carrying two devices so that his crew can charge one and exchange it with another?

    Waterproof devices... or are they prone to failure?
    The AT is like a rainforest down south and notorious for ending the lives of electronic devices prematurely... especially when one is hiking in the rain and not taking cover from it.

    Not sure that fully would explain any gaps if all was working properly... but as you point out Scott had problems that had little to do with the device (like leaving it in the van).

    I'm not much a of technology guy... but was shocked how simple it is to use these files and data when reviewing a past hike.
    With a short lesson I could easily create a tracking map from the comfort of a coffee shop or ideally a local bar.

    Not your problem for karel specifically... but as we are always looking for a cleaner solution overall:
    What is unique about your service that could prevent data manipulation?
    Does the mapping software self-correct or 'smooth out' any errant pings?

    As flawed as Spot is in terms of coverage... at the end of the day a non-tech person like myself can see the raw GPX track file get downloaded and supplied by Spot on their letterhead. So the raw data isn't filtered through any presentations or spreadsheets if one wants to review it. Though the time zone conversions remain as perplexing as Kilometers... at the end of the day individual pings can be cross referenced to other forms of documentation.

    Does Legends Tracking store this data in it's original unaltered form for public view or do you only release it to the participant? (or only through mapping software)
    Does having two trackers active present any challenges? Such as combining the data stream or comparing time stamps?

    How does the time stamp work when upload is delayed? Does the device keep it's own time log?
    This is an issue I have seen before when an athlete and the device disagree... sometimes the athlete is right actually.

    We are interested in finding a solution to tracking issues.
    Unfortunately each service promises a solution, but there is always some issue that arises that causes it to fall short. As a result; it can be handy to know what the limitations are.

    For example- A conscientious Spot user could actually put together a very good GPS track if they turn off live tracking.
    As Peter mentioned, selective use of the Spot can easily generate a good ping per hour in nearly any conditions if one works with the device itself.

    I'm not implying anything other than sharing my experience and general knowledge.. T-Mobile is one of the better cell service providers in the southern Appalachian Trail area. There are several trail towns where ATT or Verizon work- but not both. T-mobile seems more willing to piggyback onto other networks and has success as a result. To be fair- Hot Springs North Carolina is a clear black hole for T-Mobile in particular.

    Just pointing out that one of those 'tricks' if you are relying on that service is to spend a bit of time on a peak, overlook, or high point as while T-mobile won't be ticking along with solid service... a few minutes with on a high spot will let you get a call or even a data connection more easily than some others because T-mobile doesn't have dedicated towers they seem to do a better job using anything they can.

    Overall- guess we will see how things play out.
    Hard to blame the tracker when Scott leaves it in the van... or other attempts run out of batteries... or simply fails to turn it on.
    Even when someone like Joey Camps does dry runs ahead of time... something can happen with a device and it simply fails to 'go off'.
    And we do have to simply accept that while few things are in the middle of nowhere any more... you're still off the grid with enough depth that your tech won't work right.

    So if there are ways to educate a user on how to best use your service those are always helpful.

    Again thank for joining the conversation and for addressing your product.

  6. #46
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    A quick follow up thought-
    Tracking manually with a spot improves it's use... mainly because in the dense canopy when the spot doesn't get a signal it gets 'confused'.
    So instead of pinging every 5 or 10 minutes it spends an hour or more trying to send the first ping out before it resets itself and tries again.

    If signal is good... all works.
    If it misses a transmission... it tries to talk over itself basically as sending and receiving are on the same 'line'.

    That's my average guy interpretation of it.

    It sounds as if your device avoids this problem?
    Basically you have a clear path to receive info and create points.... and a separate way to transmit (or store if needed)?

    So tracking continues uninterrupted and so long as you don't exceed the onboard memory before it can upload you're good?

    Is there a way to pair your device with a smartphone (to increase storage of the track)?
    Or to perhaps send the GPX file via text message? It's not hard for a person to stop on a high point and glance at their phone.
    I often use texting in this manner... type the texts up... phone stores them... when I get to a view and take a break I click on the failure to send messages and can visually verify that they go out when I know I have a signal.

    Much of the issue with Spot or other devices is you're simply crossing your fingers and hoping they work.
    Even the most conscientious user can have an issue with no verification.
    Joey Camps and others defaulted to manually restarting the device several times a day simply to verify it was working as that initial start up ping tends to go through... especially if you cherry pick your location to send.

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    Thanks stefschuermans for the details on the tracking. I have a follow up a question, if you are still following this thread.

    I was tracking Karel's progress and noticed that the distances he has been posting on his Facebook page don't quite match the 2018 distances provided by the ATC. I am completely fluent in the metric system so this isn't just a case of converting miiles to km. I assume the ATC data comes from GPS tracking. Are the distances posted coming from his tracker? If so, it would seem the two are giving slightly different numbers. Of course in the end it doesn't really matter since it is where you are (not the distance measurement) that's important. According to Karel's FBj posts, he has covered 332.5 km to get to Icewater Spring Shelter in four days but according to the ATC, that should be 338.6 km. Please note that I am NOT accusing Karel of skipping a few kilometers. I am just observing that his measurements are consistently 1.8% less than the ATC numbers.

  8. #48

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    Stef,

    THANK YOU for clarifying about Karel's tracking. This is extremely helpful. Your device is not widely used in the USA, and in fact up to now I'd never heard of it. But, the technology makes a lot of sense for many trails where cell service is common. I'd be very interested to talk with you more about the use of your service for FKT purposes more generally. Your website is pretty thin on details about what you offer - no info about costs for the tracker or services. I'd love to learn more, so if you'd like to discuss please contact me at peter at fastestknowntime dot com.

    One comment is that tracking something like the AT is about QUALITY not QUANTITY. You can have track points every minute going through a town or along a road section, but it's better to have occasional points far from roads. I've encouraged people (especially the self supported crowd) to only activate their SPOT trackers (if they must use SPOT!) when they are in open areas and well away from roads. This saves batteries and gives a better chance of good results. For every device you need to know how it works, what it's limitations are, etc. You wouldn't go into the wilderness with a camp stove you didn't know how to use, but somehow people often don't pay the same attention to their trackers. On the AT having a point every minute is pointless (no pun intended) - Karel will move maybe 100m in that time, and it will create much more backlog of points to be uploaded when cell service becomes available, as well as a greater possibility of losing data points if service is lacking for an extended period.

    Thank you & best of luck to Karel in the coming weeks! Really fun to watch. And I agree with Bill that we should be talking about Belgian beer...
    PB
    fastestknowntime.com

  9. #49

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    This is what I have so far, with Karel's distances from https://www.summitpost.org/appalachi...e-chart/593282 (so could be some inconsistencies with Stringbean's reported distances). Note that it appears he slept the night of 7/21 at a shelter away from the road. Corrections appreciated.

    Day Karel Stringbean ahead Karel’s ending location date
    1 50.9 43.2 7.7 Unicoi Gap 07/18/18
    2 103.9 86.3 17.6 Rock Gap 07/19/18
    3 137.3 07/20/18
    4 207.7 183.2 24.5 Icewater Spr Shelter 07/21/18
    5 251.2 229.9 21.3 Max Patch Rd 07/22/18

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbakwin View Post
    This is what I have so far, with Karel's distances from https://www.summitpost.org/appalachi...e-chart/593282 (so could be some inconsistencies with Stringbean's reported distances). Note that it appears he slept the night of 7/21 at a shelter away from the road. Corrections appreciated.

    Day Karel Stringbean ahead Karel’s ending location date
    1 50.9 43.2 7.7 Unicoi Gap 07/18/18
    2 103.9 86.3 17.6 Rock Gap 07/19/18
    3 137.3 07/20/18
    4 207.7 183.2 24.5 Icewater Spr Shelter 07/21/18
    5 251.2 229.9 21.3 Max Patch Rd 07/22/18
    137 is the always memorable and always visited NOC. Nantahala Outdoor Center
    US19-Nantahala River, NC @ 136.5 per this years

    http://www.atdist.com/
    This is what I use as a double check for year to year updates.

    Someone else could chime in perhaps but there was another site (created by a member here I think) that also allowed you to create an elevation profile for a given section. It was recently shared in the harvey thread?
    That's probably easier to use as you have a quick map to scan rather than a list of places that mean nothing to you.

    Icewater spring makes sense as that's only a 3 mile walk heading north from Newfound Gap (US441- the big parking lot that splits the ridge in the smokies).
    So late day resupply and walking on (no overnight parking there I believe) would fit a supported hike as that's about your only access point. (or if you're a self supported young lady getting dropped off)

    Stringbean struggled a little out of the gate if I recall off hand.
    He did best mid trail... and silly fast up north.
    (still like to hear that story but I digress)

    Fifty a day down south isn't shocking (comparably/overall)- especially if Karel is willing to do a bit of a hybrid approach and isn't tying himself to road crossings as other supported hikes tend to.

    I didn't look hard- but there was mention of a crew chief and a pacer.
    If the pacer was willing to mule sleep gear for Karel (or his crew chief hustle it in) then a late day road meetup/dinner/therapy with a team push afterwards to round out his ' daily fifty' would be a solid tactic.

  11. #51

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    Sound logic

  12. #52

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    I’m a little perplexed why someone would undertake such a monumental effort without first testing the equipment to make sure it performs as expected.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tundracamper View Post
    I’m a little perplexed why someone would undertake such a monumental effort without first testing the equipment to make sure it performs as expected.
    You’re not alone

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    137 is the always memorable and always visited NOC. Nantahala Outdoor Center
    US19-Nantahala River, NC @ 136.5 per this years

    http://www.atdist.com/
    This is what I use as a double check for year to year updates.

    Someone else could chime in perhaps but there was another site (created by a member here I think) that also allowed you to create an elevation profile for a given section. It was recently shared in the harvey thread?
    That's probably easier to use as you have a quick map to scan rather than a list of places that mean nothing to you....
    I think it was me who posted that link, which is here, but last I checked it said it was unavailable. https://bentwells.shinyapps.io/atdata/
    That site report to use the 2018 data from the ATC. If you set the start as Springer, the end as Katahdin, get an output of the whole trail, then Copy and Paste into Excel, and you get a spreadsheet with all the mileage and elevation data for 1793 points along the trail. My tracking is pretty much the same as posted above, but my mileages are slightly different using these data. The StringBean locations are from what he posted on the FKT site. His mileages are are adjusted for the 2018 data. Karel's locations for days 1, 2, 4, and 5 can be confirmed as they were when his tracker was reporting. He ended day 3 in the middle of the long section where his tracker wasn't reporting. I am speculating he stopped at Yellow Creek Gap, as this is the only road crossing that is consistent with the mileage for that day he posted on his Facebook page. As you can see he has been very consistent to date.

    Karel StringBean
    Day Location Day Miles Location Day Miles Ahead of Pace
    0 Springer Mtn/AT Southern Terminus Springer Mtn/AT Southern Terminus
    1 Unicoi Gap/GA Hwy 75 52.3 Low Gap Shelter 42.6 9.7
    2 Rock Gap Shelter/USFS Rd 67 53.1 Standing Indian Shelter 43.1 19.7
    3 Yellow Creek Gap/NC Rd 1242 ? 52.5 Nantahala, NC/US Hwy 19/74 50.8 21.4
    4 Icewater Spring Shelter 52.5 Spence Field Shelter/Eagle Creek Trail 46.8 27.1
    5 Lemon Gap/TN Hwy 107 49.7 Cosby Knob Shelter 47.4 29.4

  15. #55

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    Holy moly! Can people just use a normal, cheap everyday inReach device for tracking so we can all move on with our lives?? 2G cell service!?!? What is this, 2005???
    Lol... Just poking at ya. Seems like a cool setup

  16. #56

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    Question with regards to using an inreach. How would you go about setting it up so that there is a delay on your map? Is that possible on Garmins Mapshare or would you have to register it with a 3rd party to do that?

  17. #57

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    If you follow only on instagram you’re not getting data but are getting proof of life at least. Uniformity would be nice to throw in mileage (or kilometerage) or wait according to JPDs article the local language “miles” should be used

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odd Man Out View Post
    I think it was me who posted that link, which is here, but last I checked it said it was unavailable. https://bentwells.shinyapps.io/atdata/
    Yar, that's the one I was thinking of... too bad it is down. I looked at it briefly and figured it would be handy for something/somebody.
    I'm used to reading AWOL's book on PDF so that's still my go to generally with ATDist if I need to run a quick point to point check.

    This is the map I tend to use for GPX checks- http://tnlandforms.us/at/googleat.ph...&mt=3&scale=11

    I think Peter still likes CalTopo... and Matt flexes his google foo.

    Handy having all you smart people with higher edumacation.

    Chemists, Engineers, Physical Therapists.... if only we could get an Atmospheric Physicist to really get that solid overall global perspective to tie it all together.
    Last edited by Just Bill; 07-24-2018 at 09:55.

  19. #59

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    Hi everybody, Stef again, in this post, I’ll try to provide some more explanations on the questions that you guys had based on my previous post.

    1. We have indeed the data from Joe’s FKT and the ones from Scott are publicly available (https://share.delorme.com/scottjurek) . In a couple days we will add those data to the tracking website. Given the sometimes very low density of location points for both athletes, it wouldn’t really make sense to put them already earlier, because it would only confuse the visualization on the map. Once Karel has done a decent part of the AT, the differences caused by not having enough location points will be less significant.

    2. The tracker is powered by Li-Ion batteries, rechargeable by a standard mini-USB cable. With the current settings for Karel, the batteries will probably last around 3 days of running.

    3. The tracker is IPX5 compliant, so not fully waterproof, but it is stored in a waterproof bag that we also use for Triathlon and SUP events.

    4. The big question about possible data manipulations: the tracker sends its data messages to our server. These messages contain a password, obviously the location and time information, unique identifiers regarding the tracker and the simcard, MCC-MNC-LAC and CellId, which basically define the mobile provider and cell tower the message is sent from, and a hash for verification. If one would try to send false information, it probably can be done, but you would have to be a very good hacker. Just as it can be done to SPOT or Garmin by a good hacker. So the risk of getting data not coming from the tracker itself is virtually impossible.
    Can we (Legends Tracking) change the data? Well, technically, of course we can since it is stored in a database which can be altered. Just as an employee of SPOT or Garmin could alter data. But he would probably be fired, and we would be out of business very fast.

    5. Time stamps: we actually have 3 time stamps: (1) the time when the gps position was taken by the tracker, this is the LocationTime. (2) the time when the tracker tries to send the gps position to our server, this is the ReportTime. We can for example configure the tracker to take a position each minute (LocationTime) and only send all those positions to the server every 10 minutes (ReportTime). (3) the time when the location arrives on our server, this is the ReceivedTime. When there is no mobile network available, the ReportTime will be different from the ReceivedTime.

    All times are in UTC, so there should be no reason for time stamp issues.

    6. Data visualization: we show on the map the marker at the position of the last position that the tracker has sent us (Please note that ‘last’ means LocationTime, not ReportTime or ReceivedTime). When you click on the small map icon next to Karel’s name, we show ALL the points that the tracker has sent us. These data is not manipulated, time, latitude and longitude come directly and unaltered from the tracker. The mapping software does not self-correct or smooth out errant pings.

    7. Using two trackers at the same time, which is not the aim, but could happen, should not give any issues. The only thing that we will see is that there will be 2 points per minute now. Of course, if his crew turns on one of the trackers while not being together with Karel, we might see strange points appearing …

    8. In order to make things more convenient for you guys, and for anybody following Karel’s FKT attempt, we will include a button on the tracking site where you can download the full gpx including all location points coming from Karel’s trackers. There will be no delay or manipulation on this gpx.

    9. There was a question on pairing the tracker with a smartphone, but I don’t see the point of it (It is not possible by the way). Bill explained how he uses his smartphone often to type a text, which is not sent, but then an a mountain top or something, he pushes to resend and then it works. This is actually a very good analogy for the working of the tracker, which tries to send its messages as soon as there is network available. Note that due to the minimal size of each message, and the use of 2G, the tracker often will get a connection and send messages even if your phone tells you that there is no connection at all.

    10. On the distances covered, very interesting question actually. The KM markers are calculated automatically based on the provided gpx. With over 200 events each year, it would be impossible to try and do this manually (I wouldn’t see any benefit to it anyway). For Karel’s tracking site, we took the gpx files from https://www.gaiagps.com/datasummary/...mapquestaerial, which seems to be the ‘official’ gpx files.

    The distances are calculated using an Haversine function (the most complex but also most accurate method to calculate the distance between 2 points on a sphere) on each coordinate in the gpx file. If the quality of the gpx file is lower (read: less points), the distance will by definition be shorter than the actual distance on the ground. Especially on long routes, differences might become more significant.
    So, bored you enough now with technical talk.

    If you guys have good ideas or recommendations about what would make the tracking site even more interesting or useful, just let me know, and we can see if we can implement something.

  20. #60
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    Stef-
    Thanks again! Sounds promising overall actually.

    A roughly 60 gram unit correct?
    More the merrier I suppose, but as Peter pointed out Quality of the track is desired over Quantity of pings.
    Simple way to say it; if a device delivered 1 ping per hour, every hour, every time... that would be a HUGE improvement. If you can deliver that... then 2 per hour, 3 per hour, etc.
    As Peter mentioned; at roughly 6.4 KM/HR (4 mph you filthy yanks)... we are not talking speeds that you might see in your other events (cycling, marathons, water sports). So the SPEED part of these FKT's is relatively low.
    Even at 10 minute intervals you're talking a KM per ping.... which is way more detail than is required.
    We aren't talking about an urban environment where someone could 'cheat' by ducking around the wrong street corner; for the most part there isn't a lot of opportunity to go off course, nor is there much advantage to doing so when in the middle of the woods. Even most 'shortcuts' one might take are several miles so with 3 pings per hour anyone cheating on a distance of more than a KM would get found out.
    So with that in mind:
    It sounds as if you're fairly confident in getting the GPS data from the satellites... which I think most who use GPS on the trail via smartphone or other devices agree on.
    Sending that data back out is the bigger ongoing issue- a 20 minute interval means only 72 pings per day to store at 24 hours.
    4 pings over 16 hours is easy enough too just in case one ping per hour fails.
    Which seems like your device can easily store in the buffer.

    Even in the worst possible scenario, with three days of battery (or more) and the capability to send a burst of 200 or so in a single shot... Karel's section through the Smokies could have been recorded and even if you never got a single signal on that whole 3 day stretch the device would blast the route out and catch up the data at the first cell tower it hit.

    The section the device struggled in is Smoky Mountain National Park... a very large area with little cell tower coverage. So an issue is to be expected there. However your device did get a few transmissions out.
    IF Karel was using a lower density interval we would have gotten a very solid and clean track out.

    As it was... we got small sections of way too many tracks. And large sections of nothing. Bursts of quantity but no quality.
    I have to imagine at this point... the buffer is clear and those sections that haven't 'caught up' are lost?
    Not picking on your device... just trying to understand those limitations to improve the performance.


    Point being- it appears that the device would function as a very solid tool for long distance hiking trails if set up for this type of event.

    I assume you'd see a big boost in battery life too?
    Even a self-supported athlete like Joe M is hitting a town or resupply stop every 3-4 days at this point. If the device could last 4 or 5 days, and store 80 pings per day for that duration.... sounds like you're talking about being able to clear all that buffer data easily during a resupply or meal stop with no problem. One could recharge in town and head on confidently to the next point.

    That was supposed to be what the Spot Trace delivered... but sounds like your device actually does it.

    With some tweaks- this may be a winner for these events.
    Might even be worth advising Karel to 'turn it down' if possible.


    As far as data manipulation:
    I'm not saying your site (or Spot, or Garmin) would manipulate the data. Or even that an employee would.
    More that a dishonest athlete or team could.
    For self supported (solo) hikes it is in the athlete's interest to delay the track by a few days.
    So per the latest and greatest effort- the data gets dumped into an excel sheet and displayed on a map to create the delay automatically.

    Also, given sponsor requests and other changing realities... it's getting more common for us to get the data 'filtered' in some way.
    Even with Karel... you are running the plug in I assume... but we are going to his sponsor's site to view the track.Others do the same thing... it's not that the GPS service would alter the data... but that the athlete would want to present the data on their platform of choice.
    If we ONLY get the information from this filtered approach or custom map... that map can say anything they want it to say.
    However if at the end we also get the raw data from the GPS service (third party)... then we know it wasn't manipulated.

    It sounds as if this is not an issue on this hike.

    We are just all looking for a good solution and keeping the data in the hands of a third party for final verification is in all our best interests.
    Having reliable, independent mapping for sponsors to use (as skins is now) is likely something they would really appreciate as a $ponsor doesn't want to get tied up in any funny business.... which come to think of it I think Skins has already dealt with a high profile long distance disaster.


    Your number 10:
    Gaia feed may be the issue. They list 2097 miles total... trail distance is actually 2190.
    Not exactly Odd Man Outs 1.8% variation but probably part of it.
    I know the very basics of the distance problems, especially on a very rugged trail... but maybe a better file will get you closer.

    Might even be a minor rounding issue between KM and miles... though as has been pointed out... "Its not about the kilometers, its about the smilometers."
    Clearly proof that not everything works better in the metric system.

    https://appalachiantrail.org/home/ex...trail/gis-data

    That's the official I believe... others know better than I do.

    What could improve the experience visually for hikers would be to add a layer of shelters. Hikers are used to 'viewing' the trail this way and they provide good reference points in sections where there are not named mountains or handy landmarks to cross reference.

    http://tnlandforms.us/at/index.php

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