One woman - rescued TWICE on the AT...

[Puddlefish]

again, there were a small quantity of early posts that were pejorative in nature. those are long back up the thread and no one has continued just attacking and name calling the hiker in question, certainly not me.

for my part, i like to discuss hypothetical implications of a situation. some, seemingly like yourself, seem to take this as my stating that i know exactly what happened with the exact situation. i don't and that isnt what i am saying. it really just seems to me like batting around hypotheticals is somehow offensive to you and a group of others. i really don't get why.

is this website really better if there are just half as many threads because we don't bother discussing "what ifs?" any more because we don't know all of the details?

I hate being quoted in part. I just told you, it wasn't the hypotheticals that was the problem. I just told you that it wasn't only a problem in this thread. Yet you insist on claiming that I seem to be offended by something I just told you I wasn't offended by.

[John B]

I wonder if Alligator and Mags would consider setting up a Whiteblaze kangaroo court to resolve issues like this?

I did a Facebook search for Ms. Pincumbe but either she doesn't have one or my search skills are too poor. I wanted to invite her to read this thread so that she could deeply apologize to her critics. But perhaps a livestream kangaroo court would be the better way to go? Certain accusers could take turns excoriating her for her weaknesses and poor decisions, and the defendant could bow before their superior skills and judgement.

Anyway, just a thought! Y'all have a nice day. I'm on vacation in Golden, CO and I'm off to day hike the North Table Mesa. I just pray to the baby Jebus that I don't get hurt and need to call for help, or if I do get hurt, I hope the injury is clearly visible -- at a minimum, protruding bones and spurting blood -- and that I get to shelter in place for a couple of days before someone comes to haul away my sunburned carcass.

[Sarcasm the elf]

I wonder if Alligator and Mags would consider setting up a Whiteblaze kangaroo court to resolve issues like this?

I did a Facebook search for Ms. Pincumbe but either she doesn't have one or my search skills are too poor. I wanted to invite her to read this thread so that she could deeply apologize to her critics. But perhaps a livestream kangaroo court would be the better way to go? Certain accusers could take turns excoriating her for her weaknesses and poor decisions, and the defendant could bow before their superior skills and judgement.

Anyway, just a thought! Y'all have a nice day. I'm on vacation in Golden, CO and I'm off to day hike the North Table Mesa. I just pray to the baby Jebus that I don't get hurt and need to call for help, or if I do get hurt, I hope the injury is clearly visible -- at a minimum, protruding bones and spurting blood -- and that I get to shelter in place for a couple of days before someone comes to haul away my sunburned carcass.

Mags is currently out of the office and doing something epic that I’m quite jealous of. In the meantime I don’t have access to a kangaroo, but can offer you a wallaby if that’s close enough.

6E73E378-E364-4954-A8F7-ABE4F47AC6F8.jpeg

[cneill13]

I'm certainly questioning if I want to renew my membership to a site that allows it's members to actively drives hikers away from the community.

You are as soft as the Snowflake hiker. Will people please toughen up and quit being so hypersensitive. My gosh is unbelievable!!!

[tdoczi]

I hate being quoted in part. I just told you, it wasn't the hypotheticals that was the problem. I just told you that it wasn't only a problem in this thread. Yet you insist on claiming that I seem to be offended by something I just told you I wasn't offended by.

lets you and i seriously have an exchange of ideas related to the topic of this thread. honestly.

it will involve me giving you a hypothetical. this does not in anyway imply that i know that this was the case with the hiker in question and/or that i am judging for it even if it.

heres the hypothetical-

i have some sort of health problem. the specifics dont matter. this problem in day to day live does not generally cause me issues.

i have never gone backpacking before, but i know that there are things about backpacking that may cause a massive negative spike in my condition. lets say, for sake of argument, if it were unusually hot out and i, for whatever reason, ended up going without water for a certain length of time.

lets say if those conditions were met, i would become incapacitated in such a way as to require rescue. sitting and resting wont solve it. i need medical attention.

i go backpacking. its hot. 2 water sources are dry. bam, i need to be rescued.

after 2 days of rest and receiving medical treatment i'm fine.

do i go back out and hike more? i can tell myself, and it may even be true, that those exact conditions that caused me to be rescued can be avoided and/or arent highly likely to occur again. i've ben rescued once, do i give it another go, or would that be somehow improper or unethical of me?

what if i do go and end up being rescued a second time? do i then further attempt to learn by that in a way in which i can now go back for try #3 with a greater hope of avoiding a problem this time, or is it encumbent upon me to say i can not take the chane of a 3rd rescue?

if the risk of a 3rd rescue is acceptable, what about a 4th? a 5th? the line has to exist somewhere. surely no one could condone hiking the whole trail while regularly and predictably being rescued every 2 weeks..

where is the line?

this is the question i find interesting and am attempting to discuss.

what do you think? honestly. no virtue signaling, no railing against socialism and i havent even called anyone a snowflake or advocated in favor of crawling to safety. nor have i questioned the validity of anyone's medical condition.

[gpburdelljr]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wdoGVgj1MtY

[SteelCut]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wdoGVgj1MtY

All time classic.

[Puddlefish]

lets you and i seriously have an exchange of ideas related to the topic of this thread. honestly.

it will involve me giving you a hypothetical. this does not in anyway imply that i know that this was the case with the hiker in question and/or that i am judging for it even if it.

heres the hypothetical-

i have some sort of health problem. the specifics dont matter. this problem in day to day live does not generally cause me issues.

i have never gone backpacking before, but i know that there are things about backpacking that may cause a massive negative spike in my condition. lets say, for sake of argument, if it were unusually hot out and i, for whatever reason, ended up going without water for a certain length of time.

lets say if those conditions were met, i would become incapacitated in such a way as to require rescue. sitting and resting wont solve it. i need medical attention.

i go backpacking. its hot. 2 water sources are dry. bam, i need to be rescued.

after 2 days of rest and receiving medical treatment i'm fine.

do i go back out and hike more? i can tell myself, and it may even be true, that those exact conditions that caused me to be rescued can be avoided and/or arent highly likely to occur again. i've ben rescued once, do i give it another go, or would that be somehow improper or unethical of me?

what if i do go and end up being rescued a second time? do i then further attempt to learn by that in a way in which i can now go back for try #3 with a greater hope of avoiding a problem this time, or is it encumbent upon me to say i can not take the chane of a 3rd rescue?

if the risk of a 3rd rescue is acceptable, what about a 4th? a 5th? the line has to exist somewhere. surely no one could condone hiking the whole trail while regularly and predictably being rescued every 2 weeks..

where is the line?

this is the question i find interesting and am attempting to discuss.

what do you think? honestly. no virtue signaling, no railing against socialism and i havent even called anyone a snowflake or advocated in favor of crawling to safety. nor have i questioned the validity of anyone's medical condition.

I've largely answered your question already. My posted advice was to see a doctor before going out a third time. I'm not sure I agree with your initial set up, that she knew before attempting to hike there was a problem, but going on your scenario, that's my answer.

I'll share a story from my distant past. 30 years ago, when I was at the peak of my physical conditioning, I had a heart event at work. I thought I was dying, the ambulance was called, I got hauled out on a stretcher in front of some 2,000 fellow employees. My heartbeat returned to normal in the ambulance, and they found nothing wrong with me at the hospital. I returned to work the following day, to great rumor and conjecture. Two months later, I had another episode, and again I recovered before reaching the hospital. Returning to work, I faced specific mockery for fainting, for having a panic attack, for being unable to cope with the high stress of my job, it was suggested that I take a demotion to an easier position. Again, this is when I was actively pursuing my career and clawing my way up the corporate ladder. I ate stress for breakfast, and I was furious that all these clowns were trying to hold me back.

It took six months, before the Holter monitor I was equipped with, recorded another heart episode. I was diagnosed with Supraventricular Tachycardia. I have an extra electrical node in my heart. It very much randomly short circuits the normal electrical pattern and fires my heartbeat up to 200 beats per minutes, with resulting dizziness, shortness of breath, mild chest/shoulder pains. It won't kill me, but I have to immediately sit down/pull to the side of the road to prevent myself from passing out. I have a technique where I can reset my heart beat back to normal, but at times it takes a while. I immediately felt better, just having a diagnosis. It can happen twice in a day, twice in a year, or once every five years. There is no discernible trigger for an event.

When something happens to you medically the first time. You don't necessarily know what causes it, you don't know if it's properly diagnosed initially, you don't even know if it's a repeatable event. All the conjecture by non medical professionals without access to information about symptoms, medical records and medical testing are not only unhelpful, but potentially damaging in the wrong circumstances.

As for you personally, the only thing you posted in this thread that I took issue with was when you discussed her "attitude" as if it was her attitude that got her into trouble. I wasn't chiding you personally before that... if the shoe fits, wear it. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't imagine that I'm trying to force it onto your foot specifically. Yes, I actually largely agree with you.

[OCDave]

You are as soft as the Snowflake hiker. Will people please toughen up and quit being so hypersensitive. My gosh is unbelievable!!!

What is with all the "Snowflake"talk?

Someone hikes until she physically can't go further is snowflake, while some fat dude chompin' cheetos at his keyboard in his mom's basement is ... what? Go back to watching your porn.

[rickb]

I'll share a story from my distant past.

Thanks for posting that.

Though off off topic at first reading, it really is not at all.

[tdoczi]

I've largely answered your question already. My posted advice was to see a doctor before going out a third time. I'm not sure I agree with your initial set up, that she knew before attempting to hike there was a problem, but going on your scenario, that's my answer.

I'll share a story from my distant past. 30 years ago, when I was at the peak of my physical conditioning, I had a heart event at work. I thought I was dying, the ambulance was called, I got hauled out on a stretcher in front of some 2,000 fellow employees. My heartbeat returned to normal in the ambulance, and they found nothing wrong with me at the hospital. I returned to work the following day, to great rumor and conjecture. Two months later, I had another episode, and again I recovered before reaching the hospital. Returning to work, I faced specific mockery for fainting, for having a panic attack, for being unable to cope with the high stress of my job, it was suggested that I take a demotion to an easier position. Again, this is when I was actively pursuing my career and clawing my way up the corporate ladder. I ate stress for breakfast, and I was furious that all these clowns were trying to hold me back.

It took six months, before the Holter monitor I was equipped with, recorded another heart episode. I was diagnosed with Supraventricular Tachycardia. I have an extra electrical node in my heart. It very much randomly short circuits the normal electrical pattern and fires my heartbeat up to 200 beats per minutes, with resulting dizziness, shortness of breath, mild chest/shoulder pains. It won't kill me, but I have to immediately sit down/pull to the side of the road to prevent myself from passing out. I have a technique where I can reset my heart beat back to normal, but at times it takes a while. I immediately felt better, just having a diagnosis. It can happen twice in a day, twice in a year, or once every five years. There is no discernible trigger for an event.

When something happens to you medically the first time. You don't necessarily know what causes it, you don't know if it's properly diagnosed initially, you don't even know if it's a repeatable event. All the conjecture by non medical professionals without access to information about symptoms, medical records and medical testing are not only unhelpful, but potentially damaging in the wrong circumstances.

As for you personally, the only thing you posted in this thread that I took issue with was when you discussed her "attitude" as if it was her attitude that got her into trouble. I wasn't chiding you personally before that... if the shoe fits, wear it. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't imagine that I'm trying to force it onto your foot specifically. Yes, I actually largely agree with you.

with much respect, i don't think you answered my question. "see a dr" is putting the decision off on someone else, but i think even more so, its putting the focus more on whether hiking again or not is in the best interest of the person doing the hiking and failing to address the question i am really trying to discuss- is it fair for this theoretical person to risk having to ask others to come to the rescue again, incurring cost doing so and, more importantly, potentially putting their own well being at risk?

while your personal story you shared is relevant in some ways, no one has to go backpacking to find out what works best for them, whats really wrong and how best to work through it. thats a key difference.

once all of that is figured out, then giving backpacking another go, sure, yes ok. but not before.

i have not and do not mean to in anyway conjecture about anyone's health. the conjecture on my part is "what is it ok to expect others to do on my behalf to insure my well being while i engage in a voluntary leisure activity?" and thats all i am conjecturing on.

[Slo-go'en]

found another article about her - in the dailymail.uk

I found this statement interesting "The nature of her illness remains unclear." And "at times she was forced to walk".

I tried to find an incident report but failed. Franklin county Search and rescue does have a blog with a write up about the lady from the UK who broke her leg in the Bigelow's a few days later.

In any event, having to be carried out of the woods twice in two weeks is a bad sign. Hopefully she's thought better of this and is resting at home.

[Puddlefish]

with much respect, i don't think you answered my question. "see a dr" is putting the decision off on someone else, but i think even more so, its putting the focus more on whether hiking again or not is in the best interest of the person doing the hiking and failing to address the question i am really trying to discuss- is it fair for this theoretical person to risk having to ask others to come to the rescue again, incurring cost doing so and, more importantly, potentially putting their own well being at risk?

while your personal story you shared is relevant in some ways, no one has to go backpacking to find out what works best for them, whats really wrong and how best to work through it. thats a key difference.

once all of that is figured out, then giving backpacking another go, sure, yes ok. but not before.

i have not and do not mean to in anyway conjecture about anyone's health. the conjecture on my part is "what is it ok to expect others to do on my behalf to insure my well being while i engage in a voluntary leisure activity?" and thats all i am conjecturing on.

To more specifically answer your question on your hypothetical scenario. That's not the kind of decision I'd involve myself in, for another person, who isn't me. I can tell you what I'd do in that situation. There's no right answer for everyone. I'm not the caretaker for who is and isn't worthy to be on the trail.

I'm a big states rights advocate in situations like this. The trail has been around long enough, that every community has already addressed what is considered an abuse of the system, and how they want to deal abuses of the system. If the SAR team and the whole system behind that team aren't making any noises of complaint, I'm not going to white knight for them.

[tdoczi]

To more specifically answer your question on your hypothetical scenario. That's not the kind of decision I'd involve myself in, for another person, who isn't me. I can tell you what I'd do in that situation. There's no right answer for everyone. I'm not the caretaker for who is and isn't worthy to be on the trail.

I'm a big states rights advocate in situations like this. The trail has been around long enough, that every community has already addressed what is considered an abuse of the system, and how they want to deal abuses of the system. If the SAR team and the whole system behind that team aren't making any noises of complaint, I'm not going to white knight for them.

so what would you do?

i'm going to guess, and i apologize if i'm putting words in your mouth.

you'd speak to your dr and if your dr said it wouldnt hurt you to go try again, you would go.

so, in other words, to state your final summation differently, what impact your actions may have on SAR are of no concern to you.

just want to be clear i am reading you correctly.

[Last Call]

It's nice to sit here, invisible, at the keyboard and judge our fellow humans for everything under the sun from size, color, religion and mistakes or weakness and then use that same invisible keyboard to hide our own! The girl made a mistake, wasn't ready to give up, made a second one big deal, didn't cost anyone here a dime! But made your day to feel good about yourself to judge another!

but isn't it our DUTY to judge?

[Puddlefish]

so what would you do?

i'm going to guess, and i apologize if i'm putting words in your mouth.

you'd speak to your dr and if your dr said it wouldnt hurt you to go try again, you would go.

so, in other words, to state your final summation differently, what impact your actions may have on SAR are of no concern to you.

just want to be clear i am reading you correctly.

Well, I'd know my own medical condition. I'd hike. I can die at home, or I can die doing something I enjoy. After taking all additional precautions possible, would I call search and rescue if something blew up? Yes. I already make these kind of decisions when I hike. However, I don't hike in the winter, where's there's a higher chance I'd get SAR personnel killed.

SAR doesn't hire children. They hire adults who know exactly what they've signed up for. I imagine they feel good about helping people, promoting tourism, ensuring safety, and all the things that they do. Doesn't mean I'm going to treat them like a disposable resource.

Every human makes the exact same risk assessment every day, and every human draws the line in a slightly different place. You can't stop living because there's a chance something bad will happen. As my health continues to fail, I'll just adjust my hiking routine, and hope I've adjusted it enough.

[tdoczi]

Well, I'd know my own medical condition. I'd hike. I can die at home, or I can die doing something I enjoy. After taking all additional precautions possible, would I call search and rescue if something blew up? Yes. I already make these kind of decisions when I hike. However, I don't hike in the winter, where's there's a higher chance I'd get SAR personnel killed.

SAR doesn't hire children. They hire adults who know exactly what they've signed up for. I imagine they feel good about helping people, promoting tourism, ensuring safety, and all the things that they do. Doesn't mean I'm going to treat them like a disposable resource.

Every human makes the exact same risk assessment every day, and every human draws the line in a slightly different place. You can't stop living because there's a chance something bad will happen. As my health continues to fail, I'll just adjust my hiking routine, and hope I've adjusted it enough.

i think we mostly agree.

but i still think there is a line where our expectations of others being there to help us goes too far. that said people dont complain about it speaks to the quality of their character, it doesnt mean the actions of everyone must be ok because they havent complained. i would imagine, like all jobs, on balance they feel good about what they do or they wouldnt do it. that doesnt mean it cant be better or that there are times when what is asked of them is beyond what they feel is reasonable.

so can i assume then that you, unlike some others,have no issues with the way NH handles SAR?

[rickb]

I cannot help but wonder what kind of aid fellow thru hikers rendered.

Probably too early for her to have formed a trail family, right?

Does that even matter?

Does it matter who called the authorities?


Whether it was the young woman, or someone who became aware of her condition?

[Puddlefish]

i think we mostly agree.

but i still think there is a line where our expectations of others being there to help us goes too far. that said people dont complain about it speaks to the quality of their character, it doesnt mean the actions of everyone must be ok because they havent complained. i would imagine, like all jobs, on balance they feel good about what they do or they wouldnt do it. that doesnt mean it cant be better or that there are times when what is asked of them is beyond what they feel is reasonable.

so can i assume then that you, unlike some others,have no issues with the way NH handles SAR?

NH SAR is a law enforcement arm of Fish and Game. They're funded by a $1 fee on outdoorsy licenses/permits, and by sale of the hikesafe cards (for those just determined to hike negligently?!, or for those who worry too much that they'll be unfairly deemed negligent I guess.) They do a crap load of education. They team up with a bunch of other organizations. At some point, if someone determines you were negligent, based on the well advertised hiker responsibility code, the state sends you a bill. Easy to understand, responsibilities and penalties spelled out clearly, lots of education. Yeah, I think it's a solid system.

[tdoczi]

NH SAR is a law enforcement arm of Fish and Game. They're funded by a $1 fee on outdoorsy licenses/permits, and by sale of the hikesafe cards (for those just determined to hike negligently?!, or for those who worry too much that they'll be unfairly deemed negligent I guess.) They do a crap load of education. They team up with a bunch of other organizations. At some point, if someone determine's you were negligent, based on the well advertised hiker responsibility code, the state sends you a bill. Easy to understand, responsibilities and penalties spelled out clearly, lots of education. Yeah, I think it's a solid system.

good, i think we're mostly in agreement