PCT vs AT ground dwelling

[Dogwood]

I was not too concerned in discussing shelter choices for the PCT. I, the op, also dont plan on hammocking anywhere on the PCT.

I am more interested in learning about the kind of ground camping I will encounter on the PCT compared to my experience on the AT. I have never done western hiking.

For instance, the really sharp needles and such that can easily puncture a mat is some good information. Also, people have told me ants are a problem. Both things I was not aware of before asking/researching the environment.

For those wondering, my current PCT shelter system consist of a polycryo ground sheet, mld superlight bivy, and I'm looking for a deal on an UL tarp to pair with it. I'm also trying to shed some weight on my stakes. Carried 3.4oz's of stakes on the AT. Would like to lighten that up a bit.

I do believe that carrying the superlight will help find ideal camp spots. The footprint of my duplex was restrictive on the AT. An inflatable pad was a godsend though as many time did I have to setup on a root or lump.

If I decide to carry my inflatable, I'm thinking about adding a gg thinlite to my kit somehow or maybe giving a zlite a try to prevent punctures.

I also think I'll treat the my superlight with permethrin to deter creepy crawlies.

Thanks

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This has been my shelter set up on two PCT NOBO's. The MLD Superlight was my bivy. It was part of the sleep system enabling a 35* Highlite to be used. It enabled cowboy camping in freezing Mojave nights w/ early Apr start dates going avg to fast pace w/ all my day time clothes also being worn to increase warmth. I changed out twice in WA state to a 20* older Marmot Helium. Today I'd go with one quilt and the bivy and smallish tarp the whole way.

I've never had any problems anywhere on the PCT with ants. It is wise to check for scorpions in shoes in the morn by shaking them out. I've never had any issues with venomous snakes anywhere in N America cowboy camping. This includes the PCT. This may be because I typically dont camp in beaten down CS's preferring solitude off the beaten habits of others. Ive seen plenty of venomous snakes both day and night time while hiking though.

Both times I used a TR NeoAir Shortie. One time I got a puncture in the Mojave BUT only because my pad blew into a Joshua tree. It didnt cause that huge a problem for me. If concerned bring an UV activated 1/2 oz tube of AquaSeal for a quick fix and seek out protected CS's. This brings up another PCT condition...the wind. Since it is not an enclosed green tunnel one can be buffeted by the wind. That's why there are wind farms in the Mojave. you'll be hiking through these whirring 80 ft and higher turbine farms. The PCT has more miles above treeline than the AT too. This is one reason why I'm yet to note any PCTer using a poncho. plus the PCT rain is typically not that of long a duration or as heavy or no where as often on a PCT thru. Many PCTers have noted this.

The PCT is not the enclosed green tunnel mostly forested trail the AT is. Trees are less dense more spaced apart. Roots have never been an issue at any PCT CS.

[fastfoxengineering]

This has been my shelter set up on two PCT NOBO's. The MLD Superlight was my bivy. It was part of the sleep system enabling a 35* Highlite to be used. It enabled cowboy camping in freezing Mojave nights w/ early Apr start dates going avg to fast pace w/ all my day time clothes also being worn to increase warmth. I changed out twice in WA state to a 20* older Marmot Helium. Today I'd go with one quilt and the bivy and smallish tarp the whole way.

I've never had any problems anywhere on the PCT with ants. It is wise to check for scorpions in shoes in the morn by shaking them out. I've never had any issues with venomous snakes anywhere in N America cowboy camping. This includes the PCT. This may be because I typically dont camp in beaten down CS's preferring solitude off the beaten habits of others. Ive seen plenty of venomous snakes both day and night time while hiking though.

Both times I used a TR NeoAir Shortie. One time I got a puncture in the Mojave BUT only because my pad blew into a Joshua tree. It didnt cause that huge a problem for me. If concerned bring an UV activated 1/2 oz tube of AquaSeal for a quick fix and seek out protected CS's. This brings up another PCT condition...the wind. Since it is not an enclosed green tunnel one can be buffeted by the wind. That's why there are wind farms in the Mojave. you'll be hiking through these whirring 80 ft and higher turbine farms. The PCT has more miles above treeline than the AT too. This is one reason why I'm yet to note any PCTer using a poncho. plus the PCT rain is typically not that of long a duration or as heavy or no where as often on a PCT thru. Many PCTers have noted this.

The PCT is not the enclosed green tunnel mostly forested trail the AT is. Trees are less dense more spaced apart. Roots have never been an issue at any PCT CS.

I'm assuming you cowboy in your bivy primarily. I was concerned about wind in camp on the PCT. Do you ever set up your tarp as a wind block or do you find the superlight sufficient in breaking the wind. What about your head area? Furthermore, because you probably rarely setup your tarp, I'm assuming you carry ul shepherd stakes. But in strong winds, do they do the job for you? In that case do you just anchor them with rocks or other natural anchors?

I'm having a hard time shedding weight from my stake kit. But if there going to be riding in my pack for most of the trip, it makes sense to carry lighter stakes and put rocks on them or tie off to trees if the wind is howling.

Right now, I'm staring at 8 stakes weighing in at 2.62 ounces. Going any lighter with stakes crosses over my comfort zone! But sometimes we gotta take that leap of faith and realize everything's gonna be okay lol.

2msr groundhogs
1 ti nail
1 mini groundhog
4 lawson ul shepherds

Aside from those details. In your experience, what disadvantages have you encountered using the superlight + tarp combo out there?

I've heard bugs. Especially mosquitos. I find I'm more tolerant of them than other hikers. I think I can deal. We shall see.

I hear wind. Worst comes to worst. Pitch the tarp as a wind break to trap some heat and make sleeping possible.

Rain? I spent serious amounts of time hiking and camping in some serious rain this year on the AT. Granted it was mostly warm. However, it rained alot and hard. My tolerance and willpower is pretty strong at the moment. Maybe Washington will change that?

Just like the AT, I'll ask a million questions and get myself worked up just to take one step on trail and realize all is well.

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[TX Aggie]

If you want to Hammock camp on the PCT, it is definitely doable. Two-Speed just completed his hammock PCT thru and wrote about it here:

https://thetrek.co/pacific-crest-tra...c-crest-trail/

As others mentioned, in the desert he did have to go to ground about 25% of the time, but once he passed the 700 mile mark he was 100% Hammock camping.

[Dogwood]

I'm assuming you cowboy in your bivy primarily.

I dont take the bivy the whole way. In the beginning the bivy is part of warmth retention. A 35* bag is kinda on the light side for warmth. I know i'm pushing it. I've always experienced a few nights of near and below freezing temps in the first 700 miles. Mojave nights will get to freezing in April. I take it through Y NP always but may hold onto it longer if snow is still on the ground north of there. I do add a Sea to Summit nanonseeum pyramid hung from the inside of the tarp in OR for skeeters. About 1/2 the time I'm just in the bag. Again, if doing another PCT NOBO I'd use a quilt and prolly hold onto the bivy longer.

I was concerned about wind in camp on the PCT. Do you ever set up your tarp as a wind block or do you find the superlight sufficient in breaking the wind.

Yes I set up the tarp in a lean to 1/2 A frame wind blocking configuration. If cowboying in open sandy areas wind blown sand can be an issue. however, I look to attach one or both ridgeline tie outs to trees or whatever whenever possible. In two PCT thrus and several LASHes I can count on two hands how many times I"ve set up the tarp for rain.

What about your head area?

Sometimes I do have to face away from the wind when sleeping cowboy style.

Furthermore, because you probably rarely setup your tarp, I'm assuming you carry ul shepherd stakes. But in strong winds, do they do the job for you? In that case do you just anchor them with rocks or other natural anchors?

For the PCT ground conditions change but I typically carry 6 7" long Ti Lawson UL stakes(.25 oz/each for 1.5 oz) and 2 Vargo T116 Ascent stakes(.4 oz)( total stake wt 2.3 oz). I'm not obsessing further with stake wt. I'd rather focus on reducing consumable wt. Water is concentrated heavy wt! You have to be careful not to bend these. If concerned throw some Lawson 7" HD shepard stakes. They hold well and have never bent on me. I will use rocks, logs, or tie off to anything in heavy wind. In heavy wind I'm seeking some wind protection anyhow in the lay of the land, grove of trees, open spots in brush, large boulder, set up direction with foot of tarp into the wind, etc.

I'm having a hard time shedding weight from my stake kit. But if there going to be riding in my pack for most of the trip, it makes sense to carry lighter stakes and put rocks on them or tie off to trees if the wind is howling.

Right now, I'm staring at 8 stakes weighing in at 2.62 ounces. Going any lighter with stakes crosses over my comfort zone! But sometimes we gotta take that leap of faith and realize everything's gonna be okay lol.

2msr groundhogs
1 ti nail
1 mini groundhog
4 lawson ul shepherds

Aside from those details. In your experience, what disadvantages have you encountered using the superlight + tarp combo out there?
If you're that wt conscious and the PCT isn't that rainy through CA and OR WHY carry a heavier tarp than necessary especially if you can't find anything else to use it for? IMO if rocking the Superlight you dont need a 7+ oz tarp. BTW, if I'm not using the tarp as shelter I use it in some other warmth conserving way. Shoes are my pillow with something clean over them.
I've heard bugs. Especially mosquitos. I find I'm more tolerant of them than other hikers. I think I can deal. We shall see.

Skeeters can be of med heavy pressure if real late through the Sierra and typically through OR as a normal occurrence.

I hear wind. Worst comes to worst. Pitch the tarp as a wind break to trap some heat and make sleeping possible.

Rain? I spent serious amounts of time hiking and camping in some serious rain this year on the AT. Granted it was mostly warm. However, it rained alot and hard. My tolerance and willpower is pretty strong at the moment. Maybe Washington will change that?

I throw the bivy back in around the OR WA border. N Cascades can get wet, cold, (and light snowy if dilly dallying!) and you'll be at elevation. By then 6-7 ozs shouldn't make a difference you'll be so in the LD zone.
Just like the AT, I'll ask a million questions and get myself worked up just to take one step on trail and realize all is well.

Asking questions and considering answers is how we grow. However, we dont all have to be so consistently anal. This approach works for some, it works for me, to save wt and time on trail. Some reading this will say "shart just go with an UL tent." That's an option but IMO that doesnt save the last ozs from the kit and adds to shelter set up and break down time on a hike that doesnt require that level of protection from the elements that can be addressed in other ways.

[Miner]

I carried a MLD Grace Solo Tarp and a superlight Bivy when I thru-hiked in 2009 and for some strange reason bought the same thing again 2 years ago when my gear was wearing out. I used my bivy sack at least 60% of the time. I found it worked great for wind as you are low to the ground so most wind passes over you. That said, finding some brush, tree groves, boulders to help break the wind helps. If it's a warm night, then you don't care about the wind as the typical 20F quilt would be too warm without the wind providing some nice cooling. The wind in places in SoCAL can be strong enough that some people fear their shelters getting damaged and pull them down anyway. I never set my tarp up to break the wind unless it's also for heat retention.

It's easy finding a cowboy camp site if you only need the footprint of your sleeping bag. Trying to find a larger tent footprint can take longer.

I stopped using the bivy in Central California, with a few exceptions where I used it as a lightweight sleeping bag instead of my quilt, due to hiking in lower elevations where it was too hot. I carried a 20F quilt the entire way; not wanting to swap out gear only to get it back a few weeks later. Through there, only felt tempted to use it for mosquito protection when the sun first went down until the temperature dropped enough for most to leave sometime after 9-10pm. One night near Belden, it was hot enough that I slept in my clothes on my sleeping pad with nothing else. Having long sleeves and long pants treated with permithrin and a head net over my treated hat was more than enough to handle the few mosquitos I noticed. They never did go for my exposed hands held next to my treated clothing. I slept in the head net a few other nights without issue. That said, I wasn't going through NorCal and Oregon early when the mosquitoes were still bad. I was towards the back of the pack so the mosquitoes had mostly died off already. Started using the bivy regularly again in Oregon after Crater Lake after a heat wave lifted.

I avoided most rain when I thru-hiked. I had a few thunderstorms in California. Was drizzled on at midnight in Centrail Oregon but moved my bivy sack under a large spruce and went back to sleep as it wasn't hard enough to penetrate through the tree much. Was awaken at 4:30am in Nor Oregon with it starting to rain, so I packed up early (wasn't worth the effort to put the tarp up for another hour or so of sleep) and started hiking in the dark. Rain left once I got on the other side of the mountain. Hit 3 days straight of rain at the end of Oregon, but I missed the last day by hiking long to make Cascade Locks a bit early. Missed most of the rain in Washington that people further north were hitting as I was having great weather. Managed to make it into Snoqualmie just before a big storm hit and zero'd to avoid hiking in it. Was drizzled on one morning in central Washington when the tree I was sleeping under had it's top covered by clouds that saturated it so it started to drip down on me. I just put up with being slightly damp counting on the bivy to avoid putting the tarp up. Trail itself was dry, so I choose my campsite poorly that night. Did have rain one night with the tarp up just after Mt. Rainer NP. Then hit on and off snow for the last 4 days to the border from Stehekin. The last night dumped 4 inches on my campsite and we hiked in 6-8" over the high point just before the border.

The tarp and bivy worked well over all. That said, when I actually needed to put the tarp up, I was much more careful about campsite selection than I normally was. Always considering how the water would run off and where it would collect into a puddle (preferred sloping ground to avoid this) and usually tried to find something sheltered in trees or boulders. I had less condensation issues than some of the tarp tent carrying people I hiked with. I would easily hike with the same gear again which is why I still carry almost identical gear.

[Dogwood]

And, there you have the best assessments of others I know of from WB using very similar set ups on PCT thrus as you're anticipating. I was expecting Miner to reply with good info.

As with Miner I dont use a bivy always whether on the PCT or elsewhere. A bivy is more a cold and cold wet weather addition that amends a bag or quilt sleep system. It also can have shelter aspects. I'm not aware of how to use a bivy in any other fashion so it has to be used every night. If it isn't I tend not to take that piece of gear. I dont want dead wt ever. I dont use a WR bivy in warm humid wet conditions. overall I like throwing down a ground sheet, pad, and bag or quilt. That's it. It's most easiest. I'm just sleeping to hike the next day. This approach has been very applicable to the PCT hikes I've done. Sometimes just the tarp is fine. If need be I'll switch to a tarp with greater coverage with a very minimal wt hit if not attempting to tweak the sleep system warmth significantly. This can save wt.

[Venchka]

If needed, you can replace your entire kit at the post office in Idyllwild, CA.
Good luck!
Wayne

[Dogwood]

If needed, you can replace your entire kit at the post office in Idyllwild, CA.
Good luck!
Wayne

??? Why? I see no reason to do that in that location even if one is to change out some kit pieces on a PCT NOBO.

[Venchka]

In case all of the OCD failed to divine the Absolutely Perfect PCT gear.
Besides, what’s wrong with the Idyllwild post office?
Did I break a rule or something?
Wayne

[Dogwood]

Again Wayne, why that location to change out? What makes Idyllwild so special a location to swap anything out? Most NOBO PCTers, IF they do swap anything out or add to or tweak their kits do it at KM and perhaps change again in places like Bridgeport or S Lake Tahoe depending on their exact itinerary.

FWIW historically PCTers have tended to have advanced kits to a lighter wt, know they like LD backpacking, BUT tend to have questions with PCT logistics like snow, fire closures, water logistics, etc, and to some extent kit choices. But a good backpacker is one who is always willing to learn to evolve...NOT someone who is a know it all. SO Fox is asking some questions of the forum. Maybe he's anal about his hike. Many engineers and science oriented types are. Heck, guess you haven't spent much time on BPL , hey? But so what. If the forum can ease his mind by providing some insight, information, or options why should it bother anyone else...especially when many in this forum have agonized over all manner of gear wts, cooking times/fuel usage, DCF, water availability, BSP and GSMNP regs, bears, rodents, snakes, tents in lean-to's, JMT travel and permit logistics(OMG!), etc

[fastfoxengineering]

Again Wayne, why that location to change out? What makes Idyllwild so special a location to swap anything out? Most NOBO PCTers, IF they do swap anything out or add to or tweak their kits do it at KM and perhaps change again in places like Bridgeport or S Lake Tahoe depending on their exact itinerary.

FWIW historically PCTers have tended to have advanced kits to a lighter wt, know they like LD backpacking, BUT tend to have questions with PCT logistics like snow, fire closures, water logistics, etc, and to some extent kit choices. But a good backpacker is one who is always willing to learn to evolve...NOT someone who is a know it all. SO Fox is asking some questions of the forum. Maybe he's anal about his hike. Many engineers and science oriented types are. Heck, guess you haven't spent much time on BPL , hey? But so what. If the forum can ease his mind by providing some insight, information, or options why should it bother anyone else...especially when many in this forum have agonized over all manner of gear wts, cooking times/fuel usage, DCF, water availability, BSP and GSMNP regs, bears, rodents, snakes, tents in lean-to's, JMT travel and permit logistics(OMG!), etc

Thanks dogwood.

The questions I've asked and information I've received has definitely contributed to my hiking accomplishments.

Long Trail
Cohos Trail
AT
And now almost done the NE 67

One day, I'll be able to share some wisdom with less experienced hikers.

Until then, I'm here to learn and that's why I love LD backpacking. The trails teach me something new every day.



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[AllDownhillFromHere]

Missed the original Idyllwild posts, or why talking about Idyllwild turned into some kind of argument, but as the first serious town, there's a general taking-stock (emotional and physical) that goes on, and there's massive gear swapping going on. Shoes, socks, tents, packs, etc.

[nsherry61]

. . . A bivy is more a cold and cold wet weather addition that amends a bag or quilt sleep system. It also can have shelter aspects. I'm not aware of how to use a bivy in any other fashion so it has to be used every night. . .

I'd like to suggest an alternative point of view on bivies. I frequently use an ultra-light bivy in PCT conditions as it allows me to cowboy camp with my bivy as my ground sheet. I can slip inside if I get a little cold with my minimalist insulation, typically early morning. I can also slip inside if it starts to rain or drizzle. And in shoulder seasons, I can use a smaller tarp for shelter when a storm comes. I think the key here is that sleeping under the stars is your default, and the bivy enables easy adjustments either in the middle of the night or in the advent of unexpected or rare foul weather. If I am expecting harsh weather or otherwise carrying a larger tarp, a bivy is a silly bit of added, unnecessary weight.

[Venchka]

I was never here. You can’t prove a thing.
Wayne

[Dogwood]

I'd like to suggest an alternative point of view on bivies. I frequently use an ultra-light bivy in PCT conditions as it allows me to cowboy camp with my bivy as my ground sheet. I can slip inside if I get a little cold with my minimalist insulation, typically early morning. I can also slip inside if it starts to rain or drizzle. And in shoulder seasons, I can use a smaller tarp for shelter when a storm comes. I think the key here is that sleeping under the stars is your default, and the bivy enables easy adjustments either in the middle of the night or in the advent of unexpected or rare foul weather. If I am expecting harsh weather or otherwise carrying a larger tarp, a bivy is a silly bit of added, unnecessary weight.

Yeah. With the bivy there might be no need for a ground sheet. Depends on the ground conditions and possibly what bottom fabric choices have been made. And, I may use it as a ground sheet when not in it although I find the silny bottom option to be quite slippery under inflatable pads. The DCF bottom is less so. However, were referring to the MLD Superlight WR bivy. In anything but the lightest shortest duration drizzle or rain the top fabric wets through. A WP bivy is meant as a stand alone bivy. I have two eVent MLD bivies for that. I've been in that situation many times praying the rain would lessen or stop and it doesnt with the Superlight. By that time my bag or quilt has started getting wet. The eyebrow half moon window lets rain and drizzle in too even often when under heavy evergreens once the rain kicks in. Ron even states:

1. To be part of a total sleep heat retention system, adding 5 – 15 degrees of warmth, especially when even a slight wind gets under and around your shelter.
2. Bug protection.
3. Built in ground cloth.
4. To protect from any blown or splashed rain /snow that gets in under your overhead shelter.
5. To shave weight from a total shelter system. It’s a 7 oz multi-purpose piece of gear that allows for a lighter sleeping bag, a smaller overhead shelter, and no ground cloth, or extra bug protection system.
6. It can be used alone for night temps above about 65 degrees when you do not need a sleeping bag but do need some wind/water protection. It adds a bit of warmth (like a sheet.)
7. It can be used alone, with no overhead tarp, for cowboy camping.
8. It pairs perfectly with a backcountry-style quilt to limit warm air venting during night moves.
9. By putting your sleep pad inside the bivy you increase the sleep pads thermal efficiency by limiting convective heat loss.
The SuperLight Solo Bivy ™, is a true Ultra Lightweight Specialists tool; please read the entire product description and specs before adding to cart.

I use the Superlight exactly for what and how Ron states. I also believe his last sentence to be accurate, "The SuperLight Solo Bivy ™, is a true Ultra Lightweight Specialists tool; please read the entire product description and specs before adding to cart.

In regard to saving wt while getting the coverage needed and not requiring a bivy for needed additional heat retention I find it's better to go with a 2 oz heavier larger sized or different sized DCF tarp. Everyone has to examine their own set ups though. This is what I find. In other words it's better off to take the wt hit on more coverage of the tarp not always needing to take the bivy because I gram weenied the tarp size down to the most minimalist size especially when hiking in the northwest rainy season or doing a standard AT NOBO not overly relying on AT shelters. Even as an experienced tarper I would not rely on the Pocket Trap even with a Superlight to keep me dry. But, I'm a tall person . But I also want some room to move around and sleep dry. For a typical timeframe PCT NOBO conditions the Superlight bivy and smallish UL tarp has worked fine. Lastly, after all my yakkety yak I think it wise to have differnt shelter options and approaches depending on conditions and abilities and not get stuck in a one shelter mindset for all occasions. Sometimes a hammock or a UL tent is a better choice. ..or availing oneself of shelters on the foulest weather occasions.

[Malto]

I only used my tarp for three nights on the PCT, cowboy camped the rest. As far as wind goes, I loved zipping myself in the bivy without any other shelter, less flapping from the wind. As far as good sites, I had zero problem, likely because I needed very little space to cowboy camp. I believe the ideal shelter for the PCT is the lightest weight shelter that could keep you dry in rainy weather. Most nights that shelter will be part of my pillow. I’m not sure if most hikers embrace cowboy camping as much as I do but I have done it ever since even on the AT or even recently on my Lofoten Islands hike. I love to be able to experience the environment.