Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 51
  1. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    01-16-2011
    Location
    On the trail
    Posts
    3,769
    Images
    3

    Default

    I took a wind shirt but no rain jacket on the PCT until Washington. I wouldn’t do it again. This day detailed below could have ended much different. A rain jacket even a very lightweight one makes a great addition to your pillow. I also have become a huge fan of lightweight wind pants. They were the only pants I took on a recent Lofoten Island traverse where the weather could have been really nasty in September. I have also become an umbrella toter as well. https://www.postholer.com/journal/Pa...ora-Pass/24131
    enemy of unnecessary but innovative trail invention gadgetry

  2. #22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliotrope View Post
    Now the question is: do you also bring an umbrella? I often carry both and find the umbrella gets more use Most of the time.
    I'm an umbrella convert. Most breathable rain protection and great for sun protection.

  3. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tipi Walter View Post
    You sort of answered your own question when you said---"Ultimately I only wore my rain jacket if I spent time on top of a windy, foggy, misty mountain . . ."

    In my opinion the whole purpose of a rain jacket is to keep you alive in harsh conditions or changing conditions when hypothermia rears its ugly head.

    When you really need it---you really need it. Maybe once every two weeks but it's vital.

    A wind jacket to me is useless weight.
    The Helium is light enough you can use it as a wind shirt.

  4. #24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    She thought she could mail her rain gear ahead to Kennedy Meadows and she was soaked from hiking in cold rain all day, her gear was soaked, and she couldn't stop shivering.

    It's not unheard of to place oneself in this position...especially the newb narrow fair weather(summer) experienced AT types who advise to always hike drenched...often as an excused reply because their rain gear and/or its usage is deemed inappropriate. Ya have to think hard about IF this all day rain and cold scenario happens how it will be addressed...without rain gear...under different trail/hike/route scenarios with one's personal LD philosophical approaches and skill sets. If she could have stayed warm while being wet OR stopped and set up shelter and gotten into her bag/quilt OR had a crystal ball Jesus like command of the weather it could have been different.
    Iím in a Facebook group discussing some hypothermia rescues of people who decided to skip rain gear.

    Sobering to read.

  5. #25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethesis View Post
    The Helium is light enough you can use it as a wind shirt.
    And after seeing how crappy it was in just two hours of rain in the Wind River Range in August...there's no way I'd spend that kind of money on it

  6. #26

    Default

    I'm still generally in the 'no rain gear in the summer' category for this part of the country on the AT. That said, I had an experience in mid May of this year in PA that has me a lot closer to carrying it if the weather's remotely questionable. After 24 hours of nonstop rain and temperatures in the mid 50's (high 60's were predicted), I was very, very cold. Not quite hypothermic, but certainly edging in that direction. If the forecast includes anything under 70, I'll take something more substantial than a wind shirt from now on.

  7. #27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DuneElliot View Post
    And after seeing how crappy it was in just two hours of rain in the Wind River Range in August...there's no way I'd spend that kind of money on it
    True. at 3 oz, you get something like a houdini with DWR that is somewhat effective with light rain for awhile. Go up to 6 oz and you can get quite a lot more rain protection.... but also has its limits!

  8. #28
    Registered User
    Join Date
    08-28-2007
    Location
    Georgia and Hawaii
    Posts
    17,755

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethesis View Post
    The Helium is light enough you can use it as a wind shirt.
    Quote Originally Posted by DuneElliot View Post
    And after seeing how crappy it was in just two hours of rain in the Wind River Range in August...there's no way I'd spend that kind of money on it
    It's not just the wt of the OR Helium 2 that can make it a somewhat effective double duty pseudo wind shirt/true rain jacket for on the fence rain jacket or wind shirt targeted UL market. I've had three - one Helium and on my second seam taped Helium 2. It's the 30 D silny ripstop aka 2.5 layer Pertex Shield+ 25,000 MVTR. BUT again mechanical ventability AND knowing how to proactively thermoregulate typically(VERY OFTEN!) trump breathability of a jacket. IMO far too many far too often rely exclusively on breathability of a wien/rain jacket for consistent thermoregulation!

    For about the same wt and price the MB Versalite (MB Versalite on sale is about the same as the Helium 2 although I've seen Helium 2's as low as $89) but with a Versalite 15,ooo MVTR rating BUT with greater mechanical venting built in I'd rather have the MB Versalite with 12" pit zips and adjustable velcro wrist cuffs. It's also nice to have tight mesh thru inner pockets to dump heat in a rain jacket with hand pockets. Montane and several other rain jacket manufacturers offer this ventability feature. It was part of the feature set in the discontinued GoLite Tumalo rain jackets I had bought when GL was closing. The Versalite also has rain pockets. All this talk about MVTR, marketing of such a spec, and debates about the marketing of breathability are moot if the under ideal lab conditions MVTR specs aren't maintained on trail. Oils, grime, wear, etc can drastically decrease MVTR in the field. HH can likewise be decreased because of issues involving personal usage NOT manufacturing or marketing. I've become skeptical of claims of a true WP rain jacket with HH's in excess of 8K wetting out quickly such as 2 hrs WHEN trail conditions and age and use of the jackets aren't detailed. YET, many folks take their own abilities or lack there of out of the gear usage equation. Human hubris? Skill sets - knowledge - trail wisdom - gear wisdom is critical to using gear most effectively. See the same occurring with negative animal encounters and a plethora of other issues.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hikingjim View Post
    True. at 3 oz, you get something like a houdini with DWR that is somewhat effective with light rain for awhile. Go up to 6 oz and you can get quite a lot more rain protection.... but also has its limits!
    On second Pat Houdini. They are NOT WP by any token of the imagination. For some short duration mist or light drizzle in windy situations, on a windy sand and mist blown beach for example, runs, windy maybe milder peak bagging, in dun in a day quick and fast back to the car agendas... and flashing the Pat logo. Part of that in crowd I'm a crossover outdoorsy type trail runner looksie my apparel hung on $6 apiece tropical wood hangers like the TNF heavy fleece Denali that was so popular to flash in red color several yrs back for HS and University students and the Aspen Film Festival $12 tall latte "cafe" crowd. Yeah sure Conrad Anker carried and wore it on his Everest summits.

    That's my a hole rant for today. Are you not amused?

  9. #29
    -
    Join Date
    08-14-2005
    Location
    Fort Madison, IA
    Age
    56
    Posts
    1,541

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    Are you not amused?
    might be if I could translate that to english

  10. #30
    Registered User
    Join Date
    08-28-2007
    Location
    Georgia and Hawaii
    Posts
    17,755

    Default

    Think like a disgruntled loyal to Rome General.

  11. #31
    Registered User Just Bill's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-06-2013
    Location
    Chicago, Il
    Age
    41
    Posts
    3,772

    Default

    This is a tougher debate than it used to be... WPB laminates have come a LONG way even in the last decade. With 6 ounce WPB shells (that people actually like)... this is not the same 12-16 ounce WPB vs 4 oz windshell discussion any longer.

    Insulation- as others mentioned... a windshell can really be a huge compliment to insulation layers. Turning a useless in a breeze fleece into a comfortable insulated jacket. In that sense the 'add a shell' feature of a windshell can still do quite a bit for you. On the flipside... if you have a down or synthetic puffy along then the only real use for the windshell is while walking.

    Breathability-
    In the midwest and east; provided the temps are not low enough a rain shell is a damned if you do, damned if you don't proposition. You simply accept that you will be soaked through from rain or body vapor. The line is pretty simple to draw... if it's warm enough out that you can afford to be wet without risking hypothermia... then leave the WPB shell home. If it's cold enough out, bring it along. Being colder out... you're also less likely to sweat it out so it's not such a burden.

    I am not familiar enough with the west coast and have limited time in the west.
    In colorado... it's dry enough that I don't necessarily see the need for a windshell vs a modern SUL WPB. The main reason that WPB doesn't work by me is the ambient humidity being so high. That is less of an issue in drier climates.

    On the PCT... I have to imagine that you'd want to take the typical three section approach (desert, mountain, north).
    It sounds very reasonable that the north end is just as humid as the east or midwest... but typical NOBO's likely easily meet the 'hypothermia standard' that would make a WPB shell necessary.
    You could call it a coinflip in the sierra- but why swap for such a short section.
    In the desert... it's dry enough (and likely not needed enough regardless) that either a windshell or WPB is much concern regardless.

    Overall... debating a 4 oz vs 6 oz shell seems of little value to me here.
    Leaving or swapping in seems of little value too... you'd be better served leaving a spare shirt home than a shell. Trying to cut the shell is gram wise and pound foolish.
    If you're starting from scratch as the OP seems to be... it's harder and harder for me to suggest that one go buy a windshell as your first purchase. For many hikers it is a piece of clothing we will eventually pick up... but might as well simply put the money towards a good quality UL WPB shell for something like this. Buy once, cry once... and really you don't have to cry too hard.
    $200 bucks for a full price Versalite is nothing. State of the art Gore-Tex shells easily cost $500 in the early 90's... and still run that high for Arc'Terex or other premium shells.

    Another 'throwback' issue that helped drive the windshell movement is that until relatively recently... WPB membranes had to be bonded to relatively heavy fabric. In fact most early goretex shells required a liner.
    Point being- these were heavy jackets with insulation value on par with a flannel shirt or 100 wt fleece. They were simply HOT jackets to wear... especially when hiking. (the damned if you do part).

    This is no longer the case. Not only are the WPB membranes more stable, but they are bonded to very light fabrics. The versalite for example is on a 10d shell material using a beefed up membrane based upon the windstopper membrane.

    Compared to a 15d houdini shell with no coating... it's not quite as breathable... but it's also not much more insulation value than a simple button up long sleeve shirt is.
    If you added pockets and pit-zips to a Houdini it would creep up to a similar weight... so in many ways you're basically talking about a souped up windshell; not a traditional WPB shell with it's implications of being too hot, heavy, or burdensome to use in anything less than dire cold.

    To me this is mainly a case of technology surpassing common trail wisdom. Most of the legs the debate previously stood on have been kicked out from under it.

  12. #32
    -
    Join Date
    08-14-2005
    Location
    Fort Madison, IA
    Age
    56
    Posts
    1,541

    Default

    I would relate more to the 20 year corporal

  13. #33
    -
    Join Date
    08-14-2005
    Location
    Fort Madison, IA
    Age
    56
    Posts
    1,541

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    you'd want to take the typical three section approach (desert, mountain, north).
    in the sierra- but why swap for such a short section.
    I am looking at this now - and my answer would be, you are swapping out gear anyway

  14. #34
    Registered User Just Bill's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-06-2013
    Location
    Chicago, Il
    Age
    41
    Posts
    3,772

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    I am looking at this now - and my answer would be, you are swapping out gear anyway
    I could buy in adding a shell after the desert... or swapping wind for WPB.

    I just mean from there on out, from what I understand after the desert unless you're really moving there isn't much value in changing things up too much from there on. Rough weather will likely catch up to you soon enough.
    Especially in today's relatively unpredictable climate it seems prudent not to push so far. More and more it doesn't cost you much in grams to chance it.

  15. #35

    Default

    Bill makes some great points regarding advances in the ultralight WPB category over the last few years. It's probably time for me to rethink my gear inventory a bit.

  16. #36
    Registered User
    Join Date
    11-01-2014
    Location
    Norwell, MA
    Age
    57
    Posts
    2,193

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    This is a tougher debate than it used to be... WPB laminates have come a LONG way even in the last decade. With 6 ounce WPB shells (that people actually like)... this is not the same 12-16 ounce WPB vs 4 oz windshell discussion any longer. . .
    To me this is mainly a case of technology surpassing common trail wisdom. Most of the legs the debate previously stood on have been kicked out from under it.
    Having grown up in the Pacific NW, and currently living south of Boston, I can tell you that even while it's raining out west, it isn't as humid as it is out east on many a seemingly dry summer days! And, that is actually probably true since rain out west is normally associated with cold (therefore less moisture in the air) whereas rain in the east does not necessarily mean cold.

    Regardless, I am a big wind shell/poncho guy. I love and benefit from the extra breathability of the wind shell and the huge warmth relative to weight and bulk that it provides when worn over a light insulating layer. WPB jackets, even the high end stuff I have and rarely wear still gets wet from the inside in cold rainy weather if you are hiking at a reasonable pace. WPB work great if you are strolling slowly. They suck when you speed up and start generating heat. On the other hand, a wind jacket can help keep your wet arms warm when hiking with a poncho and the poncho breaths wonderfully and keeps all your gear, including the outside of your pack, dry.

    Anecdote . . . a few weeks ago, as my son was getting into Washington and it was raining a lot while he was hiking the PCT, he asked me to ship him his WPB rain jacket because the poncho he was using wasn't keeping his hands and arms as warm as he wanted. I sent him his rain shell. He wore it for the next rainstorm. His pack got wet because it was no longer under the poncho. He got soaked wearing the coat from a combination of failing WPB membrane and sweat. In the end he figured out how to either deal with his cold arms or how to keep his arms warm and finished the trail a couple days ago, in the pouring down rain mixed with snow, wearing the poncho again and carrying the dead weight of a useless rain shell.

    Ponchos rock! Ponchos with wind shirts are about as functional, effective and versatile for outer layers as one can get for hiking trails in cold and/or rain.
    I'm not lost. I'm exploring.

  17. #37
    Registered User
    Join Date
    08-28-2007
    Location
    Georgia and Hawaii
    Posts
    17,755

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CalebJ View Post
    Bill makes some great points regarding advances in the ultralight WPB category over the last few years. It's probably time for me to rethink my gear inventory a bit.
    Yet, we'll justify gram and oz weenieing DCF shelters and backpacks, cookware and DIY stoves and fuel usage, exchange quilt based sleep systems verse sleeping bag based ones, trekking poles, tent stakes, down verse synthetic, and on and on and on...and spending good money chasing these choices.

  18. #38
    Registered User
    Join Date
    08-28-2007
    Location
    Georgia and Hawaii
    Posts
    17,755

    Default

    $120 for a DCF floor or ground sheet verse a free Tyvek or $4 polycro/food wrap one? Are the wt savings and performance that much a difference? Ohhh, the sexy beasts are tempting to justify.

  19. #39
    Registered User
    Join Date
    11-01-2014
    Location
    Norwell, MA
    Age
    57
    Posts
    2,193

    Default

    Just wanting something is justification enough for many. Who needs reason.
    I'm not lost. I'm exploring.

  20. #40

    Default

    My XL Marmot wind shell and Packa weigh under a pound total. It's worth considering such a combo.
    "It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how." ---Dr. Seuss

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
++ New Posts ++

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •