Planning a section hike of the Whites in December and have questions

[HandyRandy]

The plan is to use a twig stove and an alcohol stove as a backup. I’ll have the Solo Stove Lite and he’ll have the Solo Stove Titan. The alcohol stoves will be a Starlyte XL2 and a Fancee Feest. We’ll be carrying quite a bit of backup items just to be safe.

[CalebJ]

?
How many twigs do you expect to find in the snow, and /or how much alcohol are you carrying to melt water?

[demonace]

Hold up. Are you telling me that when it snows we won’t be able to make a fire???


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[CalebJ]

I'm saying I wouldn't rely on finding enough of the right size pieces of wood to feed a stove of that type versus carrying a more appropriate tool for the job. Building a fire is one thing, but feeding a compact wood stove on a backpacking trip with a snow pack on the ground is another.

[egilbe]

Hold up. Are you telling me that when it snows we won’t be able to make a fire???


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You realize the snow is getting deep now, right? All your twigs will be buried or covered in ice and snow. Ever try to burn frozen wood? It doesn't burn. It's like trying to burn an ice cube. Forget alcohol. It will be too cold to light. Not enough BTU's to melt snow efficiently.

[egilbe]

See if you can get something lit off this stuff:
FB_IMG_1542593034988.jpg

[Hatchet_1697]

https://andrewskurka.com/2015/gear-l...-stove-system/

Good advice on winter stoves


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[Hatchet_1697]

There several of us grey beards following your quest; some support the pull of adventure, others think you’re nuts — all want to make sure you understand the risks and return home safe with all your fingers and toes. You’re young and can embrace the suck, but frostbite and hyperthermia are unapologetic b*tches.

The question I have, are you bringing a Personal Locator Beacon (PLB)*(5 watt power), or just a Satellite Messenger (considerably less power) like the Spot or inReach?

The inReach is nice because family can track your location on an online map, but the Spot/inReach are geared towards recreational use and can have spotty coverage. On these devices the antenna must be pointing straight up (vertical) when activating to provide an accurate GPS location, otherwise the coordinates can be off over a mile delaying the SAR response.

I’ll spare you the engineering as to why this happens, but will say a PLB is preferred for a trip like this. If the unexpected happens, and things go sideways in a bad way, rescue in 8h is much better than 24h.

Keep posting!

Hatch



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[CalebJ]

How would the antenna orientation affect plotted location? I understand having signal degredation and not picking up enough satellites for an accurate fix...

[Feral Bill]

https://andrewskurka.com/2015/gear-l...-stove-system/

Good advice on winter stoves


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Very good advise there. Please heed. I have always used white gas stoves, including weather down to -35 F. Practice at home and be careful. You do not want to burn yourself

[Hatchet_1697]

Lol, great question, but for a different forum. Most White Blaze guys aren’t RF antenna geeks so I know better than to go there on this forum. Now backpacking gear and skills, they’re all over that!

NH Fish and Game along with the Civil Air Patrol did field testing in the Whites, I forget the specific model, but when the device was on its side the coordinates had a surprisingly large error ellipse. You can call NHFG and ask them what they recommend. The manufacturers also provide specific instructions on device orientation.

The model this guy used a couple weeks ago seems to have worked well.

https://www.boston.com/news/local-ne...aist-deep-snow




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[Slo-go'en]

There shouldn't be any problem getting water, the streams are all flowing strong. Even cold as it's been, it be a while before they freeze up solid. Keeping you water bottle from freezing might be a issue though. This is when using Nalgene bottles is worth the weight, and having an insulated sleeve for it. Store it cap side down, that helps keep the cap from freezing in place.

Alcohol stoves can work in the extreme cold, but they need to be insulated from the ground and have a wind shield. The Caldara cone system is good for that. It just takes 2-3 time the amount of fuel then normal to boil water which was 32.5 degrees to start and it's 15 degrees out. It also takes a long time.

There is a lot of down branches on the trails (no one seems to bother picking them up and moving them) from the last few wind and wet snow storms. There should be enough sticking up out of the snow to be reasonably easy to forage. Still, not the best option, but could work. Just be sure to collect twigs along the way to camp, as the picking might be slim at campsites and most of that down wood is at lower elevations.

A gas canister stove still the most practical option, but be sure to start with a full size cylinder and have an insulated pad to put it on. If you find you need something hot to drink NOW!, a canister stove is the quick, no fuss way of getting that hot drink. You don't want to be messing with a wood or alcohol stove when your borderline hypothermic.

White gas is definitely the best, but finicky.

I don't think these guys will find the Whites to be anything like they expected.

[Feral Bill]

There shouldn't be any problem getting water, the streams are all flowing strong. Even cold as it's been, it be a while before they freeze up solid. Keeping you water bottle from freezing might be a issue though. This is when using Nalgene bottles is worth the weight, and having an insulated sleeve for it. Store it cap side down, that helps keep the cap from freezing in place.

Alcohol stoves can work in the extreme cold, but they need to be insulated from the ground and have a wind shield. The Caldara cone system is good for that. It just takes 2-3 time the amount of fuel then normal to boil water which was 32.5 degrees to start and it's 15 degrees out. It also takes a long time.

There is a lot of down branches on the trails (no one seems to bother picking them up and moving them) from the last few wind and wet snow storms. There should be enough sticking up out of the snow to be reasonably easy to forage. Still, not the best option, but could work. Just be sure to collect twigs along the way to camp, as the picking might be slim at campsites and most of that down wood is at lower elevations.

A gas canister stove still the most practical option, but be sure to start with a full size cylinder and have an insulated pad to put it on. If you find you need something hot to drink NOW!, a canister stove is the quick, no fuss way of getting that hot drink. You don't want to be messing with a wood or alcohol stove when your borderline hypothermic.

White gas is definitely the best, but finicky.

I don't think these guys will find the Whites to be anything like they expected.

Assuming your seal is not corrupted by ice, try putting those Nalgenes full of hot
water in your insulated boots for the night. Win-win.

[T.S.Kobzol]

A gas canister stove still the most practical option, but be sure to start with a full size cylinder and have an insulated pad to put it on. If you find you need something hot to drink NOW!, a canister stove is the quick, no fuss way of getting that hot drink. You don't want to be messing with a wood or alcohol stove when your borderline hypothermic.
.

This is a reason why I bought my first jetboil this year...I know I'm late to the party but I figured it could be super quick in a pinch.

I have used alcohol stove and it worked but sometimes you're exhausted when you start making camp in the dark and every minute is a luxury.

I have also used my Woodburning stove in deep snow but I carried fatwood with me.



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[peakbagger]

I was out on the AT in Shelburne NH on Thursday. We had a loop hike over including a relatively low altitude section between Gentian Pond and Dream Lake on the AT. Only 2.1 miles on the AT. This stretch should have taken us an hour. Well after 2 hours we turned around after about 1.1 miles. Blazing of the AT in the whites is generally secondary to following the trail bed except for around intersections. Unfortunately with 12 to 18 inches of fresh snow and no track the trail bed was not easy to find in open woods. It was overcast so the woods are monochromatic and faded white blazes on trees dont show up very well. Some sections of the trail are cut through thicker younger softwoods and is fairly easy to follow but were loaded with large blowdowns. We were barebooting in this as the snow pack isnt well developed yet so climbing over blowdown with snow shoes is usually much harder as the branches catch on the crevices on the shoes. Once the snow has packed down a bit the blowdowns will usually get locked into the snow with one major exception which are the dreaded spruce traps encountered near treeline but on occasion anywhere there are small firs. Near treeline powder will form "wells" of lose snow around fir trees and frequently cover the trees so it looks like it just a wide snow field. A hiker will be walking along and the next thing they know it they may drop over head deep into a hole full of loose snow. Its a major effort to escape as if they have snowshoes on the snowshoes get trapped in the branches which initially bent downward. When the hiker tries to lift their foot, they are pulling the branches back upwards. Frequently its quite a effort to get out of and a good way to get soaked due to the exertion required.

We had an agreed upon a turn around time and when we exceeded it we turned around. A lot of folks get in trouble including myself assuming that despite being half way or more than half way that the fastest way down is to keep going. This is false thinking as trail conditions can get worse slowing forward progress to zero. I participated in a 18 hour day hike once where we made that assumption and ended up coming out at 1:30AM the next day. Trying to find a trail in the dark in winter with headlamps is not particularly easy and its almost guaranteed you will loose it multiple times. Speaking of headlamps buy some lithium batteries, they work much better in cold conditions. Regular alkalines loose a lot of capacity when cold.

The other thing to keep in mind is in above treeline areas it can be impossible to find where a trail heads down into the woods. The signs and cairns easy to follow in the winter can drift in and the actual trail into the woods can drift in even with the woods on either side. That means when you need to get off the ridge you may not be able to and if you try to cross country it through the dense softwoods near treeline they can be continuous spruce trap reducing forward travel to almost zero.

[egilbe]

What peakbagger said. It's really scary to being caught in a whiteout and have the trail completely disappear.

Many of the trails leading to safety become completely obliterated by drifting snow. People tend to walk with the prevailing winds to their back and the prevailing winds in bad weather lead you into wilderness areas with snow that can be 10's of feet deep, lead to avalanche prone areas, or off headwalls where a slip and fall lead to death, especially in the Presidentials.

Snowing right now and forecasting another 6-8 inch snow storm for tomorrow and single digits temps for Thanksgiving week.

[peakbagger]

Note we had a GPS track and even that wasnt enough to keep up on route. When we started zig zagging to try to stay on the track it was another reason to go home.

One of the guiding services has a website that lists the escape routes from the AT in Winter along the Presidential Traverse Route and compass bearings from landmarks. The standard approach is if in doubt go Right when southbound or left when northbound. There are exceptions but frequently the otehr direction dumps you in a large basin like the Great Gulf Wilderness, Dry RIver Wilderness , and the Pemi wilderness. These are all visited rarely in the winter and many tend to have cornice's which forms on the leeward side of steep slopes. Cornices can be real bad news as they can quickly form an avalanche and if the person survives the initial drop they are potentially buried deep and snow and suffocate.

Note the declination is around 17 degrees in the area, if you dont compensate for the declination, you most likely will miss the escape route where it goes into the trees. The Jewell trail, Lowes Path and the Ammonusuc Ravine trail are somewhat infamous for this due to the long distance from the ridgecrest to treeline. Even with good bearing Haystack has a few fatalities and frost bite incidents where folks an find the Falling Waters trail due to high winds and blowing snow.

[sethd513]

I was going to go up Thursday. I’m seeing -25 at camp with -40+ windchill. Needless to say I’m waiting till Friday to camp. I have that option because I’m only 4 hours away.

I wouldn’t camp out there even if I was staying in caretaker huts without a white gas stove, bomb proof bivy, -20 or warmer sleeping bag and knowing what my base and mid layers take to dry out on my body. You should have atleast r6 or more insulation. Honestly there are many great places to experience winter. The whites might not be the best place to start but it’s one hell of a place to learn


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[Traveler]

We had an agreed upon a turn around time and when we exceeded it we turned around. A lot of folks get in trouble including myself assuming that despite being half way or more than half way that the fastest way down is to keep going. This is false thinking as trail conditions can get worse slowing forward progress to zero. I participated in a 18 hour day hike once where we made that assumption and ended up coming out at 1:30AM the next day. Trying to find a trail in the dark in winter with headlamps is not particularly easy and its almost guaranteed you will loose it multiple times. Speaking of headlamps buy some lithium batteries, they work much better in cold conditions. Regular alkalines loose a lot of capacity when cold.

Perhaps one of the least discussed trail safety measures, and potentially most valuable, is an agreed time or place where the turn around decision can be made. Glad to see this mentioned in your post and hope others see this as well!

[CalebJ]

I was going to go up Thursday. I’m seeing -25 at camp with -40+ windchill.

Where do you see it going that low? Don't get me wrong - Thursday's forecast is brutal. I'm just not seeing it quite that far down.