What's your philosophy on whiteblaze purity?

[Dogwood]

Not anyone on this overly long thread has said anything about sacrificing their own honesty and integrity, rather only that you have no right to say exactly what that is...

I didn't call out any individual. I called out dishonor and deceit.


The ATC has clearly stated applying for a 2000 mile certificate is based on the honor system. OK, then let's be honorable. Let's act with integrity...by demonstrating it with our actions.


If we're accurate in our recollections Scope folks other than myself with an abundance of experience with thru hikers over many years have publicly stated on WB they routinely are intimately privy of AT thru hikers claiming to have completed an AT thru hike having skipped portions of the AT, sometimes large portions, not making an honest effort to entirely hikeall the AT. This is regularly observed when not particularly focused on it. I've witnessed it personally many times. Some want to ignore this. To hush it up. If I made that a regular habit I'd be complacent in that dishonesty. I choose to not aid and abet concealment of and misrepresenting the truth. I desire my conscience to be clear, unconflicted.


How about yourself Scope? Care to reply to the question?


When dishonesty and deceit occur sometimes it's called out. That isn't going away...no matter how much some may want it to.


That's the nature of dishonesty and deceit. It malignantly grows and festers in the attempt to further conceal and misrepresent the truth.

[Dogwood]

i'm not encouraging the false acquisition of the certificate. i'm encouraging the proper assessment of the certificate's value (basically nothing).

But that's not the case Tdoczi... made obvious by the social value that completing or 'thru hiking" XYZ trail offers. There's often greater value assigned by society as a benefit of completing or accomplishing something - H.S., a college degree, long durations at a job, paying off a vehicle or home, a FKT, a first, etc. This occurs regardless of what we individually believe or how we individually assess or judge value. In short, there's often greater value assigned in gaining a 2000 mile certificate or completing something. That plays into the minds of hikers.

[MuddyWaters]

A certain percentage of the population will:

Cheat on spouse
Cheat on income taxes
Lie about ....everything
Steal when no ones looking

Its a bit absurd to think none of these people will also make it to the AT.
Theres dishonorable people everywhere. Even in religious organizations.

[Feral Bill]

The "cheaters" are taking nothing from anyone, except perhaps themselves. Harmless self delusion at the very worst.

[tdoczi]

But that's not the case Tdoczi... made obvious by the social value that completing or 'thru hiking" XYZ trail offers. There's often greater value assigned by society as a benefit of completing or accomplishing something - H.S., a college degree, long durations at a job, paying off a vehicle or home, a FKT, a first, etc. This occurs regardless of what we individually believe or how we individually assess or judge value. In short, there's often greater value assigned in gaining a 2000 mile certificate or completing something. That plays into the minds of hikers.

a piece of paper that literally anyone can get whether they did the thing it claims they did or not is worthless.

that tons of people falsely assign it worth doesnt change that.

besides, who does something just to gain the admiration of others, or as you put it, the "social value?" unfortunately a lot of people. but to me thats the problem.

[Traveler]

It really doesn't matter what level of "purity" one establishes for themselves or holds to. What matters is how the self defined "purity" level is managed and the evolution of philosophical concepts when they collide with reality. Does one strictly adhere to self imposed purity rules like "lick every blaze" (love that!)? Or is there an evolution of that philosophy when suffering yet another bout of Norovirus borne on fingers of those who's "purity" level was far less and only had to touch them.

Life provides many object lessons for those who falsely claim achievement to acquire a certificate or gain local notoriety, eventually they are disgraced. While it may not be their undoing to falsely claim the AT 2000 mile certificate, it adds to the straw that eventually breaks the karmic camel's back.

Like personal integrity, I don't think the "purity" issue can be framed in anything close to a one-size-fits-all concept. In my view those issues remain the exclusive province of the individual.

[scope]

But that's not the case Tdoczi... made obvious by the social value that completing or 'thru hiking" XYZ trail offers. There's often greater value assigned by society as a benefit of completing or accomplishing something - H.S., a college degree, long durations at a job, paying off a vehicle or home, a FKT, a first, etc. This occurs regardless of what we individually believe or how we individually assess or judge value. In short, there's often greater value assigned in gaining a 2000 mile certificate or completing something. That plays into the minds of hikers.

Technically correct, but for practical purposes here in this specific case we’re talking about, incorrect.

To answer your interrogative statement from the previous post, I’ve not exactly been one to be reserved about calling folks out. But I’m also conscious of trying to be specific in my arguments, perhaps too much so sometimes. To me, the subject is broad and the answers here have mostly reflected that. Seems to me that you see the issue as much more defined and, therefore, see anything outside of that definition as fair game for the label of dishonest and deceitful. Whereas I see the subject as necessitating a careful tread, your pounding of the subject is more like a bull in a china shop. Lots of untruths accepted in the full speed ahead mode, but lots of little truths ignored along the righteous path.

In summary, there are some that do care about the specifics that make up what a thru hike is supposed to be, and there are others - as LW succinctly put it - simply don’t care about your stroll in the woods. Most of us are in the middle. I’m sure most of us would say that there is a purist way of doing the thru, and would agree with your definition of it. But it’s just wrong to call everything outside of that definition dishonest and deceitful. No, you didn’t call out anyone individually, rather you pretty much called out everyone who’s ever attempted a thru hike, successful or not. That’s what I take issue with.


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[Coffee]

The "cheaters" are taking nothing from anyone, except perhaps themselves. Harmless self delusion at the very worst.

Exactly.

And it reminds me of a quote from one of my favorite philosophers:

“If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment.”- Marcus Aurelius

[Traillium]

Exactly.

And it reminds me of a quote from one of my favorite philosophers:

“If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment.”- Marcus Aurelius

This is worth keeping!

[Grampie]

nobody really cares about your little walk in the woods

Others don't care if you did the whole thing or only said you did. You are the only one that knows. If you say you thru-hiked that's fine. Only you will know and the rest don't care.

[double d]

I totally disagree with Lone Wolf when he writes, "nobody really cares about your little walk in the woods." Certainly, if done correctly, one person can share their experiences with others (photo's, web postings, presentations, etc.) and influence the knowledge, motivation and aspirations to hike the AT and/or other trails, especially in others like myself who live in areas of this country (Northern Illinois) that just do not have long distance trails to hike (yes, I'm well aware of the Ice Age Trail and have hiked it numerous times).
A few years ago, I went to Andrew Skurka's presentation in Michigan and was amazed by his stories related to his hikes and also there was many newer hikers and non-hikers who watched his presentation as well and I was happy that those newer hikers were able to greatly benefit from such an experienced hiker as Andrew.
So....LW, many people do care about long distance hiking!!!

[GaryM]

Does anyone hike the trail with the purpose of getting that piece of paper? The mind boggles over the money that one could make on EBay selling fake ones. (Thru hike certificates! Save yourself 6 months of pain for only 99.95!!!).
I am doing it for myself. Something I want to do. I am following the blazes I did follow the blue blaze around Siler bald to the shelter, does that disqualify me?). Then again I am a lash, what do I know about thru hiking?

[Feral Bill]

I totally disagree with Lone Wolf when he writes, "nobody really cares about your little walk in the woods." Certainly, if done correctly, one person can share their experiences with others (photo's, web postings, presentations, etc.) and influence the knowledge, motivation and aspirations to hike the AT and/or other trails, especially in others like myself who live in areas of this country (Northern Illinois) that just do not have long distance trails to hike (yes, I'm well aware of the Ice Age Trail and have hiked it numerous times).
A few years ago, I went to Andrew Skurka's presentation in Michigan and was amazed by his stories related to his hikes and also there was many newer hikers and non-hikers who watched his presentation as well and I was happy that those newer hikers were able to greatly benefit from such an experienced hiker as Andrew.
So....LW, many people do care about long distance hiking!!!

I don't read LW as saying people don't care about long distance hiking in general. He says people don't care about your (any one person's) hike. I doubt he's wrong.

[rickb]

The "cheaters" are taking nothing from anyone, except perhaps themselves. Harmless self delusion at the very worst.

Yes, but...

I think most of us are a bit miffed when someone close to us (spouse, child, friend, trusted coworker) is rude, uncharitable or untruthful.

Even it’s about something beyond trivial, like the score one puts down in a friendly round of golf after putting two in the pond. My reactions is far different if the meaningless “cheating” is done by someone with whom I have a bond vs a complete stranger.

While there remains some automatic bond between former thru AT hikers, as our number proliferates I think that bond has weakened more than most can appreciate.

With that, so too have my feelings with regard to those who are compelled to ignore the ATCs requirements printed above their signature, just to get listed as a 2000-miler and receive a certificate.

Now it’s a big “so what” for me, though I would like the ATC to retain its own sense of honor and discontinue the practice of issuing a 2000 miler certificate.

[Dogwood]

Some say here in this forum the certificate and completing something like hiking from GA to ME is worthless but yet some of these very same people are the ones enthralled with stories of LD hiking, supporting and adding interest to it, and actively engaged with the activity in trail communities impacted by it. I wonder if the ones voicing the loudest and most complaints have ever experienced a LD hike of 2200 miles, knowing what it can mean to others and how others can be enriched. Some find it an accomplishment, something to be admired, to be proud about, to be shared with others as a shared activity. The certificate and professions can remind us of that. If you see it as worthless then move on to a different topic. Why comment on something you perceive as having no value unless you enjoy being a curmudgeonous naysayer?
As Double D said to assume no one cares about another person's hike is missing it big time. Some of the hottest threads on WB alone involve thru hiking and FKT's. Some folks assume a hike is only about one person, as if we each hike in an alienated bubble. Rarely this is so, especially on the AT and especially on a very long AT hike. A hike, any hike, has the potential to influence and impact many. A hike is NOT an it's only about me me me I I I my my my affair. Too many presume it is or approach it as such! A thru hike is not just about hiking. Some of us may be too much in our own little worlds assuming we're all disconnected to see it.

[tdoczi]

Some say here in this forum the certificate and completing something like hiking from GA to ME is worthless but yet some of these very same people are the ones enthralled with stories of LD hiking, supporting and adding interest to it, and actively engaged with the activity in trail communities impacted by it. I wonder if the ones voicing the loudest and most complaints have ever experienced a LD hike of 2200 miles, knowing what it can mean to others and how others can be enriched. Some find it an accomplishment, something to be admired, to be proud about, to be shared with others as a shared activity. The certificate and professions can remind us of that. If you see it as worthless then move on to a different topic. Why comment on something you perceive as having no value unless you enjoy being a curmudgeonous naysayer?
As Double D said to assume no one cares about another person's hike is missing it big time. Some of the hottest threads on WB alone involve thru hiking and FKT's. Some folks assume a hike is only about one person, as if we each hike in an alienated bubble. Rarely this is so, especially on the AT and especially on a very long AT hike. A hike, any hike, has the potential to influence and impact many. A hike is NOT an it's only about me me me I I I my my my affair. Too many presume it is or approach it as such! A thru hike is not just about hiking. Some of us may be too much in our own little worlds assuming we're all disconnected to see it.

my own personal spin on the "no one cares" angle is that, in the larger world outside the hiking community, tiny little details of the hike, such as did you actually pass all the blazes, no one cares about.

take my example above about missing some of the trail in MA. if as a thru hiker that happens, is there going to be anyone outside the hiking community who wants to hear about how technically i didnt hike the whole trail cause i missed a few hundred feet? no. that level of detailed analysis is relevant to very few people in the grand scheme of things. effectively no one.

so if someone spends 5 months "thru hiking" but takes 3 blue blazes, skips a few road walks and actually (gasp) completely skips 3 miles of trail somewhere boring and insignificant, does anyone in the world at large really care to hear about it? no. to those people, even after the hiker in question tells them all the little details and is truthful, theyre going to turn around and tell their friends "hey so and so hiked the whole AT." that level of detail just doesnt matter to most people.

now there is some point, lets say if the hiker has yellow blazed 500 miles of the trail, where people at large will care. where if you tell someone you hiked the AT and then your friend who was with you says "yeah except you spent 1/4 of the time being driven around" then yeah, at some point even non hikers are just going to laugh at you and/or feel your being deceptive.

but this thread isnt about whether its ok to outright lie, its about "purity." i read that as "is it ok to literally not pass every single blaze" i think most people in the world would laugh at the idea of that question even needing to be asked. and for good reason. like i said in my first post in this thread, the idea that anyone (and there are some, thankfully not many, even in the hiking community) cares that i took an unintended detour in MA and missed 300 feet or so of trail, or that i didnt walk across dalton, ma, is kind of laughable in the grand scheme of things.

and thats what i think "no one cares" means.

[MuddyWaters]

Since popularization of autos, and shift from rural farming to urban lifestyle for majority of population, most people dont walk much. In truth, they dont understand that its even possible to travel by foot anymore. Theyve never walked more than 1/2 mile at once in their life. Even if they wanted to, no one has time to travel by foot since there is more expedient alternatives. Walking has been relegated to being a hobby due to this

So, some are floored, or enamored to learn that its still possible, and that people do it . Some take great interest, others dont give a hoot.

But the more you know, the less it means to you imo. I got into distance hiking for same reason. Didnt care squat about hiking a few miles and camping. But hike a 100 with only whats on back......much more interesting. With a few twists, its how people travelled for most of human history. On foot. No better way to see the world.

[Slo-go'en]

The ATC admits you don't have to walk every inch of the AT, they give you some wiggle room. If over the course of hiking 2200 miles, you accumulate a couple of miles of missed trail, that's acceptable.

Of course, the real debate is how much missed trail is acceptable? When I got into a car and went directly from US60 to Glasgow, VA skipping 22 miles of trail, that would have disqualified me right there. To justify it at the time, I was running out of food and was going to go into Buena Vista, but I meet a day hiker at the parking lot heading back to Glasgow with it's free town shelter, which sounded like a much better plan. What would you have done? (Okay, I had done those 22 miles a couple of times in the past, so didn't feel too guilty skipping them).

[Dogwood]

Exactly.

And it reminds me of a quote from one of my favorite philosophers:

“If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment.”- Marcus Aurelius

stepped on a nail the other day. it went through the shoe deeply into my foot. it hurt. I guess i shouldn't have been distressed?

[Venchka]

nobody really cares about your little walk in the woods

there it is
wayne