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  1. #81
    imscotty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D2maine View Post
    every year i see the shared resource that is the trail degrade a little more from the kind of selfish lazy thinking shown in this thread, hikers are slowly destroying it. LNT and acceptance of its principals is the only decent answer anybody has come up with to slowing this trend, as long as people continue to do as they please then what is left of the trail for our grandchildren will be a sad sad thing indeed.
    so yep i get a bit ticked over this because for so many it apparently is some kind of serious hardship to simply pack out what they brought in. its a disgusting way to treat something that most here claim they love.
    I share your disgust with the actions of some hikers D2Maine. However, I believe that the hikers you are lashing out at about in this thread are not the source of the problem. I believe some of these guys are the ones who have been picking out other peoples trash from the fire-pits and hauling it out.

    I think it is reasonable to have a discussion about when the 'trace' we leave becomes so minuscule that it is non-problematic. I think that was the intent of the OP's original post, to start a civil discussion on the matter. You and I may have a disagreement about where that line lies, but as others have stated, we always leave some trace.
    “For of all sad words of tongue or pen,
    the saddest are these, 'It might have been.”


    John Greenleaf Whittier

  2. #82

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    I had to look up scatolgical to see if it was a real word.

  3. #83
    ME => GA 19AT3 rickb's Avatar
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    If I had a nickel for every orange peel, apple core or banana peel I found along the AT, I might have a nickel.

  4. #84
    Registered User theinfamousj's Avatar
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    I have a friend who is a libertarian. She says that a motto of the party is, "Liberty requires character."

    Meaning that in order not to have authority imposed rules about how to be excellent to one another, all persons must possess the character whereby they already behave by best practices.

    As the government shutdown has shown, enough of America lacks this requisite character as concerns our wild spaces that for the sake of conservation of these spaces it is necessary to impose and (when the government reopens) enforce these best practices in the form of rules.

    And I am okay with that. Either you are excellent to our wild spaces on your own and so, oh hey look at that, are following the rules because that is how the rules are set up, or you aren't and are following the rules or else and thus also are being excellent to the wild spaces, but for a slightly different reason.

    It is the contrarians who think, "Well I would have been excellent to our wild spaces except I hate rules more so now I am going to be awful because rebellion yeah!" that I cannot abide. Sadly, most political Libertarians I have met fit this contratian mold.

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  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by theinfamousj View Post
    It is the contrarians who think, "Well I would have been excellent to our wild spaces except I hate rules more so now I am going to be awful because rebellion yeah!" that I cannot abide. Sadly, most political Libertarians I have met fit this contratian mold.
    This last part is where you lost me. You appear to be saying that those who don't like rules will "be awful" simply because they don't like rules. Where on earth did you get this idea? A libertarian who loves the outdoors and wants to preserve the outdoors will do so regardless of the actions of power hungry rule makers. Rules do not make one "be awful". I'm going to practice LNT and do a fine job at it. Someone else's rules may make this more difficult for me, but I'm certainly not going to let it change my views on the importance of LNT.

    There are indeed a group of people who break rules because that gives them some sort of satisfaction. Those people are not libertarians. They're called rebellious kids/rednecks/idiots/etc.

  6. #86

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    Personally,I would like to see the line drawn at burying everything that will decompose and not leaving any litter behind.Every time I come to a trashed out campsite I can't help but wonder how anybody can do that and say they love the great outdoors.

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Five Tango View Post
    Personally,I would like to see the line drawn at burying everything that will decompose and not leaving any litter behind.Every time I come to a trashed out campsite I can't help but wonder how anybody can do that and say they love the great outdoors.
    if only it was that simple but you can not even get people to bury their feces - twice this summer my wife stepped in it one time was right at a spring other was on the trail, not in the woods but on the trail...

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puddlefish View Post
    https://www.mnn.com/lifestyle/respon...&ICID=ref_fark

    I'm having trouble imbedding the link into text for some reason.

    Anyway, I learned something.
    Only if you are throwing them in an apple or banana field.


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  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by D2maine View Post
    if only it was that simple but you can not even get people to bury their feces - twice this summer my wife stepped in it one time was right at a spring other was on the trail, not in the woods but on the trail...
    At least she didn't make the mistake of stepping in her own shart. Ever do that? How about pee on yourself? C'mon, even a little? You did confirm it wasn't her own waste, didn't you?

    My Uncle taught his dog not to shart in the house by rubbing the dog's nose in its own shart. Maybe,.......

    Better not start a rock collection out west on popular summits if you don't like seeing shart.

  10. #90
    Registered User theinfamousj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeGoldRush View Post
    This last part is where you lost me. You appear to be saying that those who don't like rules will "be awful" simply because they don't like rules. Where on earth did you get this idea? A libertarian who loves the outdoors and wants to preserve the outdoors will do so regardless of the actions of power hungry rule makers. Rules do not make one "be awful". I'm going to practice LNT and do a fine job at it. Someone else's rules may make this more difficult for me, but I'm certainly not going to let it change my views on the importance of LNT.

    There are indeed a group of people who break rules because that gives them some sort of satisfaction. Those people are not libertarians. They're called rebellious kids/rednecks/idiots/etc.
    The word you are looking for that I correctly used is "contratian". Someone who does the opposite of what is simply because it *is* the opposite. They want to be contrary/opposite. The correct description for a person of that type is a contrarian. They will act counter to a rule because there is a rule to act counter to, and having something to counter takes precedence over all else.

    Then I editorialized a small bit about my life and its limited experience. Where I am, and who I am, and who I have met, I have found a tidy concentration of such contrarian adults. That is all, and that is all I claimed it to be which is why I specifically chose the words that I chose and not other words that I didn't choose. Just some color commentary musings.

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  11. #91
    Registered User methodman's Avatar
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    Default Is it OK to toss apple cores and banana peels outside?

    I think you guys have convinced me to never bring apples or bananas on the Appalachian Trail. that way I will be safe from the prying eyes and minds of others.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by methodman View Post
    I think you guys have convinced me to never bring apples or bananas on the Appalachian Trail. that way I will be safe from the prying eyes and minds of others.
    Yeah, because if you were to pack in a bunch of apples and bananas to a shelter during thru-hiker season, the first thing all those thru-hikers would do would be to question how you were going to dispose of the peels and lecture you on LNT.
    Last edited by 4eyedbuzzard; 01-16-2019 at 19:13.

  13. #93

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    This certainly explains the gnats and flies that buzz around some LD hikers.

  14. #94
    Clueless Weekender Another Kevin's Avatar
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    In a quote taken from lnt.org's own web site:

    Leave No Trace isn't black or white, right or wrong. It's a framework for making good decisions about enjoying the outdoors responsibly, regardless of how one chooses to do so. If outdoor enthusiasts stop and think about the potential impacts and associated consequences of a particular action, it can go a long way towards ensuring protection of our shared outdoor spaces.
    All seven of the LNT principles are sensible, and all must be adaptable to the situation. In all cases, the land manager's expressed policy trumps them.

    So specifically:

    Hiking on trail, yes, I will pack out apple cores, orange or banana peels, coffee grounds, and so on. If I discard them anywhere close to the trail, even buried 6-8 in deep, they will draw nuisance wildlife to the trail. This goes many times over anywhere near a shelter! (Hikers overlooking this are the reason that shelters are infested with vermin.)

    Hiking off trail, I may not be quite as careful with material that will decompose readily, and dispose of the inedible parts of food in the same manner as used food. But I hike in a well-watered area where anything organic decomposes fast. If I were a desert hiker, I'd be a lot more careful. And it's ludicrous to worry about apple cores when hiking through an abandoned orchard.

    Above treeline, I try hard to leave nothing with any more impact than pee, and try to deposit that on an inorganic surface.

    More generally, since this has digressed into a discussion of disdain for rules in general:

    I see that lnt.org has backed down on some of the more ridiculous rules that they once tried to lay down in https://lnt.org/learn/7-principles. I can recall they were pushing hard at one point for people to avoid trekking poles because they left scratches in the rock - apparently nobody told whoever came up with that one about crampon marks. (I would be in favor of a related rule: 'Avoid dry tooling except where safety demands it.') They also seem to have backed down on their insistence on muted colours for clothing and gear, to protect the viewscape of other hikers - I'm damned if I'm going to give up my orange in hunting season! In my opinion, their presentation of those rules on an equal footing with ones like, 'dispose of poo in a cathole, not on the landscape' cheapened the entire message. I'm glad to see they've become more selective.

    I'm pretty happy with what I see there now - with the caveat that the land manager's policy will take priority. (For example, I hike in some places where "stay on the trail" is the rule; in others where "avoid hiking in single file or following the tracks of others, to avoid creating use paths" is the rule, so the "durable surfaces" rule has to be adaptable.)

    I've certainly found that the idea of an eighth principle is thought-provoking. I may have to reconsider things like geotagging pictures, and I've already resolved to change my ways and share GPS tracks of bushwhacks only in private. (On the other hand, I think that updating OpenStreetMap to show established trails is a good thing overall; it will encourage visitors to use the established trails and not make their own, or help the lost to get back to established trails.) While I don't think that any of my trip reporting is likely to create any kind of 'buzz' that will lead to overuse, I recognize that others have been surprised by it, so I may have to reconsider. And I have to balance this with the fact that writing about my travels for at least my friends and family helps me to organize my own thoughts about it.

    I don't like the slogan, because the only way to leave no trace is not to go. But it is what it is, I can live with it.

    And I'm sure that this level of thought about the matter will get me labeled as 'contrarian' But I'd counter with:

    Don't follow rules blindly. Understand them, and understand what they're for.
    Don't break rules out of ignorance. Learn them, know them, break them only deliberately.
    Don't break rules out of defiance. Have something you will achieve by breaking them.
    Don't break rules and expect to get away with it. Be prepared to accept all consequences, both natural (for instance, impact on the land for LNT) and social (for instance the consequences of lawbreaking).
    Don't break rules if you can bend them. Many rules come with, 'and here's where you go to get a waiver'. Don't take 'no' for an answer from anyone who lacks the power and authority to say 'yes'.
    Then, break the rules. Because some rules are nonsensical, impossible to comply with, or in conflict with other rules.

    If you summarize this as "I don't like rules, so there!" you're missing the point.
    I always know where I am. I'm right here.

  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Kevin View Post
    In a quote taken from lnt.org's own web site:



    All seven of the LNT principles are sensible, and all must be adaptable to the situation. In all cases, the land manager's expressed policy trumps them.

    So specifically:

    Hiking on trail, yes, I will pack out apple cores, orange or banana peels, coffee grounds, and so on. If I discard them anywhere close to the trail, even buried 6-8 in deep, they will draw nuisance wildlife to the trail. This goes many times over anywhere near a shelter! (Hikers overlooking this are the reason that shelters are infested with vermin.)

    Hiking off trail, I may not be quite as careful with material that will decompose readily, and dispose of the inedible parts of food in the same manner as used food. But I hike in a well-watered area where anything organic decomposes fast. If I were a desert hiker, I'd be a lot more careful. And it's ludicrous to worry about apple cores when hiking through an abandoned orchard.

    Above treeline, I try hard to leave nothing with any more impact than pee, and try to deposit that on an inorganic surface.

    More generally, since this has digressed into a discussion of disdain for rules in general:

    I see that lnt.org has backed down on some of the more ridiculous rules that they once tried to lay down in https://lnt.org/learn/7-principles. I can recall they were pushing hard at one point for people to avoid trekking poles because they left scratches in the rock - apparently nobody told whoever came up with that one about crampon marks. (I would be in favor of a related rule: 'Avoid dry tooling except where safety demands it.') They also seem to have backed down on their insistence on muted colours for clothing and gear, to protect the viewscape of other hikers - I'm damned if I'm going to give up my orange in hunting season! In my opinion, their presentation of those rules on an equal footing with ones like, 'dispose of poo in a cathole, not on the landscape' cheapened the entire message. I'm glad to see they've become more selective.

    I'm pretty happy with what I see there now - with the caveat that the land manager's policy will take priority. (For example, I hike in some places where "stay on the trail" is the rule; in others where "avoid hiking in single file or following the tracks of others, to avoid creating use paths" is the rule, so the "durable surfaces" rule has to be adaptable.)

    I've certainly found that the idea of an eighth principle is thought-provoking. I may have to reconsider things like geotagging pictures, and I've already resolved to change my ways and share GPS tracks of bushwhacks only in private. (On the other hand, I think that updating OpenStreetMap to show established trails is a good thing overall; it will encourage visitors to use the established trails and not make their own, or help the lost to get back to established trails.) While I don't think that any of my trip reporting is likely to create any kind of 'buzz' that will lead to overuse, I recognize that others have been surprised by it, so I may have to reconsider. And I have to balance this with the fact that writing about my travels for at least my friends and family helps me to organize my own thoughts about it.

    I don't like the slogan, because the only way to leave no trace is not to go. But it is what it is, I can live with it.

    And I'm sure that this level of thought about the matter will get me labeled as 'contrarian' But I'd counter with:

    Don't follow rules blindly. Understand them, and understand what they're for.
    Don't break rules out of ignorance. Learn them, know them, break them only deliberately.
    Don't break rules out of defiance. Have something you will achieve by breaking them.
    Don't break rules and expect to get away with it. Be prepared to accept all consequences, both natural (for instance, impact on the land for LNT) and social (for instance the consequences of lawbreaking).
    Don't break rules if you can bend them. Many rules come with, 'and here's where you go to get a waiver'. Don't take 'no' for an answer from anyone who lacks the power and authority to say 'yes'.
    Then, break the rules. Because some rules are nonsensical, impossible to comply with, or in conflict with other rules.

    If you summarize this as "I don't like rules, so there!" you're missing the point.
    this - all of this excellent post

  16. #96
    ME => GA 19AT3 rickb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Kevin View Post
    They also seem to have backed down on their insistence on muted colours for clothing and gear, to protect the viewscape of other hikers - I'm damned if I'm going to give up my orange in hunting season! In my opinion, their presentation of those rules on an equal footing with ones like, 'dispose of poo in a cathole, not on the landscape' cheapened the entire message. I'm glad to see they've become more selective.
    I rather liked liked the muted colors suggestion because it was not something intuitively obvious.

    If we are being honest, the thrust of LNT (apart from the suggestion we don’t screw with critters, perhaps) is not about protecting the ecology of the land, but rather about keeping it pretty for those who enjoy our hobby.

    That’s good, but let’s face it — eating a less reprehsible brand of tuna and not buying a new SUV every three years to take us to our adventurers (or worse still, flying to the other side of the world to take them on) would lesson our foot prints far more than chucking an orange peel into the deep brush. And if you have any kind of arm at all, it’s not ever going to come back to spoil another hiker’s trip.

    And that is why muted colors matter. If three or four parties are camped around a pond with grey tents (rather than yellow) we can each live under the illusion we have the place to ourselves.

    And illusions are important, even those that have us thinking we are good stewards of the land because we pack out that orange peel.

  17. #97
    Some days, it's not worth chewing through the restraints.
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    I'll agree with Another Kevin's long post without re-posting it.

    Sometimes, I think the simpler message gets across better: "Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints"

  18. #98

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    Some people act out of spite. Some, of ignorance. Some, because they don't care. And some, will find justification for every thing. hikers are no different.

  19. #99
    Clueless Weekender Another Kevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadeye View Post
    Sometimes, I think the simpler message gets across better: "Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints"
    Keep nothing but memories, kill nothing but time!
    I always know where I am. I'm right here.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Kevin View Post
    Keep nothing but memories, kill nothing but time!
    Chase nothing but raccoons that are stealing your pack.
    Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

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