Is it OK to toss apple cores and banana peels outside?

[FreeGoldRush]

Some people act out of spite. Some, of ignorance. Some, because they don't care. And some, will find justification for every thing. hikers are no different.

Some are intelligent and act out of careful adherence to LNT philosophy. Other people mess up in all sorts of ways when strictly following someone else's precious rules. If one's solution to these sorts of things is to point to some rules or a witty little hiker phrase, then I'd say that is entirely inadequate.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I'll agree with Another Kevin's long post without re-posting it.

Sometimes, I think the simpler message gets across better: "Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints"

Ah, the good old days of motivating thoughtful behavior vs. spelling things out.

Reading this thread makes me wonder if I'm just too old to understand the present day need to form formal organizations and create lists of principles (they sound like rules to me) over what is in many ways just common sense, respect for public lands, and courtesy toward other hikers. I don't think that I and some others here are against the needs and reasoning behind LNT - preserving/protecting the trail corridor/woods/wilderness. But, I don't think I'm alone in saying that I have more than enough published rules and regulations to follow in my everyday life. People are micromanaged to death in our society - HOA's in their neighborhoods; workplace rules; local, state, federal laws, etc. The last thing many of us want is the feeling of an organized top-down effort to structure and regulate us when off in the woods - especially when we have been practicing most of these tenets long before the LNT acronym was invented.

[Dogwood]

Nuisance wild life? Shelters on the AT are infested with nuisance wild life...of the two legged kind. And that doesn't look to be changing significantly any time soon. If anything it will increase unless we change our human centric worldview and AT management practices which aren't likely to both happen for a variety of reasons...and perhaps a world plague. Despite LNT efforts, even if optimally adhered, sheer human AT numbers with a human centric 'this trail belongs to "us", is for "us" worldview, will result in human vermin tendencies not that unlike a rampaging swarm of mob mentality locusts that eventually turn on each other consuming one another as cannibals when all other resources have been depleted. It's already happening. The Barbarians - US - are at the Gate. It's not a matter of a few bad apples skirting rules. It's the rules(suggestions really), even if optimally adhered, with the common mentality of trail USERS combined with the sheer number of USERS kicks the can down the road a few more yrs until these areas too are greedily devoured. We're approaching LNT and consideration of others as Hans Brinker attempting to plug more holes in a flooding Amsterdam levee than we have fingers and toes.

This is one of the fundamental core problems. We see ourselves as USERS and VISITORS, sometimes as alienated individuals, of trails and Nature and land; these are commodities belonging to humanity, sometimes used at human whim, rather than a larger ecological community to which humanity belongs in a larger interconnected macro systemic relationship. We will always be in a clash of conflicts because we see the AT - a hiking trail - as something that belongs to us not as something to which we lovingly belong OR as something humanity is charged with taking dominion over...increasingly defined by an over economic orientation outside of an intimate loving understanding relationship of the deep responsibilities and stewardship of a larger whole, as a blessing for all and to all.

Orange and banana peels? LNT? "Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints?" Not imposing on 'others?' Are we disillusioned!

It's the AT, a human constructed edifice. It's but a temporal illusion of a 'clean protected orange and banana peel-less wilderness', a variably defined manmade idea, a wilderness "Matrix." It entails an imposition of a problematic human 'wild' life form released in invasive abundance with how it's managed. The AT was never envisioned or designed as a LNT project. It was designed to evolve, to be impacted by humanity because humanity may have been perceived as part of the AT trail system, a system to which humanity intimately belonged and was not separated from, not that we owned to do as greedily self indulgently decided!

How about Dak Park? How about the LT? All are modern manmade trails - hiker super highways/areas...with no quotas! And, now we're going to entertain grand illusions attempting to maintain it - save it - through LNT grandstanding and instilling a 'love' - 'loved to death" - of the Natural World through packing out the perceived problematic banana and orange peel mountains?

These are trails in the U.S. where the vast majority of USERS entire lives have been preconditioning by fundamental societal constructs that glorify wasteful over consumption, rampant materialism, and a fundamental societal belief that humanity is separated from and levitating above the Natural World. WE engage in these conditioned behaviors routinely often without question. There are some studies even indicating recycling increases consumption. THEN, we are going to pat ourselves on our backs with what we have achieved, what we have currently saved...defining that success by not leaving behind orange and banana peels?


We as humans, especially on the highly human impacted AT corridor or in Dak Park or LT, managed in a come one come all approach promote a consumption oriented consequential nuisance, a nuisance detrimental to achieving that which LNT adherence professes to protect. AT, Dak Park, and LT lean to's are a problematic human concentrated human imposed nuisance constructed arguably for human centric comfort and convenience.

So it seems we're individually somewhat arbitrarily drawing a line in the sand as to what constitutes LNT and to what degree leaving "trace", lots of trace, human centric acceptable trace - is allowed. Yet, not everyone will consider hiking elsewhere, avoiding these highly impacted trails/areas or avoiding typical high impacting backpacking cookie cutter agendas. Few, in the U.S. will consider the negative consequence of their values handed down through culture. And, yet, no quotas? But, let's save these places?

Want to "save the AT" hike elsewhere! Don't want an "AT mass experience?" Don't behave as the masses. Change how we see the world. Perhaps, begin by changing ourselves not knee jerk seeking to changing everything else. And, sure, consider our banana and orange peel mountain composting behavior.

[Traveler]

Now this is getting stupid.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Now this is getting stupid.

Wasn’t that the whole point?

[Game Warden]

As one who has been in court regarding litter---Yes, unless you are stupid and rude. I've tossed many an apple core, peanut shell, cigar butt, etc, into the woods, but never where I though it might be a problem or eyesore. On the other hand, I've prosecuted people for leaving a dozen hot dog rolls, cheese and salami, pile of nachos, etc. It's a judgement call on the part of the officer. If you use common sense and good judgement when tossing your detritus, I will use common sense and good judgment as well.

[Another Kevin]

Dogwood, I think we're once again in 'violent agreement.'

I don't hike where there are quota systems. First, the existence of a quota system indicates that the area is over-impacted, in the opinion of the land manager. Second, I don't think I'd be bringing anything in particular to the party - I'd be occupying a spot in the quota assignment and causing someone else to be turned away - perhaps someone with more to offer than I do.

I do see the AT as something of a sacrificial victim - or as Just Bill once said, the recruiting office. We need places that are wild enough to give people a taste for it, or we will lose the next generation of conservationists. I mostly do indeed hike elsewhere, in places with fewer illusions, but the illusion that the AT fosters is important, too.

For that matter, I enjoy hiking in Harriman - always have, and I hiked there in my teens as well. That's a place that I know was once an industrial wasteland. I see signs of old human impact nearly everywhere I look - and I see how Nature gradually takes it back. This scene is a metaphor for the whole place.

The crumbling remains of an unbelievably hubristic and never completed roller coaster (the builder went bankrupt in the 1890s). Where there once was roadbed is now grown to trees. A hiking trail runs nearby, and some hikers who have used the tunnel as an unlawful campsite have left a whole lot of litter inside it. That particular litter was there only for a few more minutes after I took that picture, because my daughter and I cleaned it out! The stonemasons were building for the ages, and that arch will probably be there long after no trail visits it. Or maybe New York's land protections will fall someday, and humans will move in again. The constant tension, that I see in miniature in Harriman, gives me hope. Whenever we humans look away, Nature takes it back!

Where I do most of my hiking is considerably less popular. Some trails that I hike (and you read it correctly, that includes the LT, the LP, the 'Daks and the Cat's) have some shelters that hikers actually take care of - or at least, that see few enough hikers that the shelters aren't obviously filled with mouse leavings. (One thing that helps is that most of the shelters have brooms - and most of the hikers know that brooms are not there for use as kindling.)

As far as I can tell, the only part of the Adirondack Park that needs a quota system is Eastern High Peaks - and don't get me started about Eastern High Peaks! (The trailheads there, nowadays, do have half-hearted pleas from the state to consider hiking elsewhere - with various nearby suggestions.) By contrast, I've been in West Canada Lakes in high season and seen about two other parties a day, and had shelters to myself. Or would have, if I used them. When I checked my logs for the NPT, it was 7 nights tenting, 3 nights at shelters, 2 nights in motels. A couple of the nights that I tented, I walked right past unoccupied lean-tos.

Yes, there are other 'crowded' areas in the Forest Preserve. The Devil's Path always has a lot of people, but the rock will stand a lot of people, and the east half of the trail is one big series of rock scrambles. I'll let the humans have that.

When I'm in condition for hiking (life issues the last couple of years have had me trapped in town a lot), about a third of my hikes are off trail. LNT.org is profoundly ambivalent about that. After all, trails are there to concentrate the human impact in what are essentially sacrificial areas so that the rest of the forest can recover, and so LNT would have you stay on them. But as I said earlier, the land manager's preference trumps LNT's guidelines, and in the Forest Preserve bushwhacks are not only permitted but encouraged. I think what that comes down to is that a park the size of Belgium that doesn't have a 'big name' attraction like the AT can absorb a reasonable number of humans who distribute their impact.

Most of your lament basically comes down to the statement, 'humans are too numerous.' I'm not terribly eager, just yet, to subtract 1 from that number.

So if you're ever coming to the Northeast (and you think you can stand my slow pace and out-of-shape-ness), drop me a line. I hear there's a good view to be had from Samuels Point (the spur that meanders kind of southeast from Cornell Mountain), and I've still never managed to summit Friday Mountain or find the plane crash on Balsam Cap. https://kbk.is-a-geek.net/catskills/...=-74.3402&z=14 Beautiful country in there, and we'd have the place practically to ourselves. It's 'old second growth' forest - yes, it was logged historically, but it's been left alone for long enough that it's regaining some of the characteristics of virgin forest. It's steep, and brushy, and generally rough going. I think you'd like it.

[Dogwood]

"I don't hike where there are quota systems. First, the existence of a quota system indicates that the area is over-impacted, in the opinion of the land manager. Second, I don't think I'd be bringing anything in particular to the party - I'd be occupying a spot in the quota assignment and causing someone else to be turned away - perhaps someone with more to offer than I do."


AGAIN, demonstration of humility, civility, empathy, and conscientiousness of a larger whole.

Civilized "violent disagreement" is welcome...and appreciated. I could learn something important. We are both open to having a civilized dialogue. Thank you so kindly.

You're someone welcome on my(our) permit and at my(our) campsite. Can ya bring some extra Indian food to share?

[hikermiker]

If I had a nickel for every orange peel, apple core or banana peel I found along the AT, I might have a nickel.

I would have a thousand dollars.

[Dogwood]

If I had a nickel for every orange peel, apple core or banana peel I found along the AT, I might have a nickel.

I would have a thousand dollars.

Mike, ,hat's what you get for hiking with a group of Fruitarians.

[kestral]

I don’t bring bananas because they mush. I have brought apples in the past, which were a treat. My dog eats the apple core, then she poops. I bury the poop. Portable leftover food scrap disposal, sleeping bag warmer, loyal companion and mouse guard rolled up in one. Now we have the dog controversy! Let the games begin...

[Another Kevin]

Civilized "violent disagreement" is welcome...and appreciated.

I think that perhaps you didn't read carefully - I said 'violent agreement.' But you got the point, anyway.

[Dogwood]

That is appreciated as well.

[imscotty]

I don’t bring bananas because they mush. I have brought apples in the past, which were a treat. My dog eats the apple core, then she poops. I bury the poop. Portable leftover food scrap disposal, sleeping bag warmer, loyal companion and mouse guard rolled up in one. Now we have the dog controversy! Let the games begin...

Kestral, sounds like you need a 'Banana Bunker.'

https://www.vat19.com/item/banana-bu...otects-bananas

Be sure to click the PSA Video Link on this page for more information

[Dogwood]

TJ's dried baby bananas(tasty and not too chewy, whole). I like dipping them in chocolate almond butter. Don't let the dried finger appearance throw you. They are damn tasty. No sugar added. High in fiber.

Or: TJ's Flattened banana(best way I could describe it - banana jerky).

Ingredients: Bananas

[Sarcasm the elf]

Kestral, sounds like you need a 'Banana Bunker.'

https://www.vat19.com/item/banana-bu...otects-bananas

Be sure to click the PSA Video Link on this page for more information

I’m adding “Banana Bunker” to my list of potential trail names to give out.

[Dogwood]

By page 3 on this thread there has been more posts debating and opining on discarding apple cores and banana peels outside than I've observed on all trails combined thru hiked in 39 different states in the U.S. in the last 15 yrs. Serious.


Banana peels? Like 100 people have brought fresh to be peeled bananas on a hike past a TH in all of modern U.S. mainland backpacking history. I think someone has been smoking banana peels.

[Sarcasm the elf]

By page 3 on this thread there has been more posts debating and opining on discarding apple cores and banana peels outside than I've observed on all trails combined thru hiked in 39 different states in the U.S. in the last 15 yrs. Serious.


Banana peels? Like 100 people have brought fresh to be peeled bananas on a hike past a TH in all of modern U.S. mainland backpacking history. I think someone has been smoking banana peels.

I absolutely bring bananas on my section hikes, especially since I started carrying a canister since they can’t be crushed. Just don’t ask me if I carry out the peels.

[Dogwood]

Sarcasm and banana peels, a likely story. Banana peel police got your # now.

[illabelle]

Kestral, sounds like you need a 'Banana Bunker.'
https://www.vat19.com/item/banana-bu...otects-bananas
Be sure to click the PSA Video Link on this page for more information

Don't be lazy, watch that video! Teehee!