Trail Dogs

[Rouen]

I've been lurking on a couple of different AT forums and I've seen a few posts/pictures of stray trail dogs, being a dog lover (if I ever get the chance to hike the trail while I am bodily able) I'd consider taking one or two of these dogs in, now here're my questions for those who've actually seen these dogs and or taken some of them in;

what's their over all condition like, do the appear wormy/flea infested/suffering from malnutrition/disease?

whats the general temperment of these dogs, do they readily come up to people(I've heard stories of numerous dogs following hikers for miles) or are the skittish/aggressive? I realise this will vary per dog but just in general.

are any of these dogs actually Carolina dogs(American Dingoes) which have roamed the South Eastern US for really no one knows how long?

dont get me wrong if I did deside to take in a dog I would get it vet checked ASAP.

Anyway thanks to those who take the time to respond.

[minnesotasmith]

1) Technically, ANY loose dog (not leashed/tied-up/collar held by owner) on the AT is a stray.

2) If you want to take any stray dog you find to an animal shelter/dogpound, more power to you. I would consider that an act of trail maintenance just as much as I would consider someone giving up part of their weekend to chainsaw through a 3'-thick 60'-long tree that fell across the Trail, and would praise and thank you for it if I knew of you doing it.

3) Don't ever take a stray dog for your own, if your personal situation is such that you were planning to get a dog soon anyway. (I dislike the term "adopt" for taking on something that is property; one adopts children or ideas, but buys and sells animals.) Pound dogs are a little better choice, as often A) you can find out something about their history (given by whomever gave the pound attendants the animal); B) the shelter employees will probably collectively know more about dogs than you will, so can often dispassionately tell you things about a prospective purchased animal that you will not have noticed; and C) shelter employees screen out some of the worst animals (ill, hip dysplasia, obvious fear biters, etc., etc.) in a way that will not have been done for any stray dog you may encounter. There may be a very good reason that the previous owner was completely uncaring about his dog to the point he did not bother to keep it leashed/fenced/kept inside his house, such as it having bitten someone or having killed another domestic animal. (He of course should have delivered it to the dog pound so no one else would have to, though.)

Instead, when you want to get a dog, take your time, checking out both breeds (even for mixed-breeds) and the background of particular animals you might consider buying, and get a completely healthy animal that is as close as possible to the age and genetics you truly want. Dogs live a long time, if chosen well and cared for properly (i.e., not allowed to run loose), and you want to own a good dog in the same way as you would want a good job, car or place to live; if not just any random job, car or place to live would do (as opposed to ones that were a good fit for you), why would just any random dog suffice for you, either? There will always be an oversupply of dogs (as there is of cats), and you can't save the world, after all.

[Ramble~On]

"Taking In" a "stray" trail dog isn't a good idea for several reasons.
First...they almost always belong to someone and although they are free to roam they have a "home range" and stick to it. They know about the trail and the hand outs that some hikers offer. In the south many dogs are free to roam about as they please and they know where home is and who master is.
Some of the dogs found on or near the trail are hunting dogs. Hunting dogs are well trained and well cared for although from time to time when you see them in the woods you'd think otherwise. Hunting dogs that run boar, bear or raccoons can be left in the woods for days.
Hikers who remove the radio collars from hunting dogs are not doing the dog any favors. These dogs are pure hunters by breed and training. Removing the collar is against the law and gives hikers a bad name....it also makes it harder for the owner to find the dogs and therefore the dogs remain in the woods longer.
Local animal shelters are a excellent place to adopt a dog.

[Twofiddy]

1) Technically, ANY loose dog (not leashed/tied-up/collar held by owner) on the AT is a stray.

This comment is one of the problems.

My labs, both of them, are on voice command, and have been trained that I am the one that is in charge. They walk independantly of me, on no leash, every time that we hike. They also sleep in the shelters when space is avaliable and they do that off a leash also. My dogs are hikers, just like you and me. I can take my dogs any where that animals are required to be on leashes and no one ever says a word to me about my dogs because they stay immediatly to my right or to my left unless they are released to run, play, goto the bathroom or what ever. If my dogs are off a leash, they are not STRAY DOGS.

[Ender]

1) Technically, ANY loose dog (not leashed/tied-up/collar held by owner) on the AT is a stray.

Not at all trying to start a "dog good vs. dog bad" thread, of which we've had many, but in CT at least, this is not the case. In CT, a dog is considered a stray only if it's loose and has no tags. At least, that's how it was back when I was living there... could have changed since then. Don't know about other states though. Could be true there, but I would imagine that it would probably be the same as CT. A loose dog with tags was considered exactly that, a loose dog, and those were handled a little differently than stray dogs. Of course, I lived in a fairly rural part of the state... I imagine that more urban areas could be different as well.

Like I said, not trying to start something, just adding my $.02 on the CT laws.

[minnesotasmith]

"My dogs are hikers, just like you and me. "

Oh? Do they vote? Do they (not you, they) pay taxes? Can they understandably explain LNT in English? Do they have 46 chromosomes? (Hint: humans have 46, dogs have 40.) Can they sign valid contracts, sue, be sued, or marry? Are they entitled to a space in a shelter if they get there before a later-arriving human?

Nope to all of those. They're domestic animals, same as horses, pigs, goats, chickens, cows, etc., and are property. As most dogs on the AT eventually seem to cause problems on the Trail (by exhaustive recounting of this), I believe that the current policies of allowing dogs on ~90% of the AT as freely as is done is unfortunate, uninformed, and will likely eventually change to something more like the Smokies NP policies along the entire Trail.

Now, Twofiddy, if your dogs do not ever try to run down wild animals around the Trail, don't pee/cr*p in the shelters, don't track mud into shelters, don't shake off when wet onto other hikers or their gear, don't bark when it's dark, don't try to steal food, don't walk on other hikers' bedding, and have not (so far) bitten anyone on the Trail, then, good for you; you are better than many at bringing your dog fully under control.

There's just that one more little thing you need to figure out how to do. You buy a leash (not overly long) for each dog that you are going to take on the AT, attach it before you get out of the car, and leave it on until your dog(s) is/are back in your car at the end of your hike, not once letting it go (unless you have tied it securely to a fixed object away from common areas like shelter areas and the Trail itself).

Why should you feel compelled to carry out this awful, terribly expensive, incredibly time-consuming and complex act (that my 5-YO niece has no trouble remembering how to do and to remember to do, every time she walks her little dog) before taking your dog out on the Trail, every single time?

It is because animals are inherently unpredictable (yes, yours, too*), and cannot be expected to be responsible for their behavior the way a human can, you are (by bringing an off-leash animal) exposing other people on the Trail to a risk they did NOT agree to, by bringing a domestic (nonservice so unnecessary to your being able to hike) animal onto the Trail. Even if it is a small risk, it is one those other hikers did not agree to. (If you can show me a written agreement by all hikers using the Trail, in advance of you again setting foot on the Trail, I'll retract that last.) You need to set up a system of control that is NOT dependent upon your dog's willingness to follow orders to eliminate this issue. A leash you hold, a fence the dog is behind, a chain attached to a fixed object (again, in a place a hiker would not normally want to go, so along the Trail or near/in a shelter is out), in a cage, inside a locked vehicle with the windows up -- take your pick. "Voice command control" does not meet the requirement, so is not on that list.


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[Rouen]

"Taking In" a "stray" trail dog isn't a good idea for several reasons.
First...they almost always belong to someone and although they are free to roam they have a "home range" and stick to it.

in a vets office if you inform them the dog was a found as a stray they should scan them for a chip if the dog is lacking both micro chip and tags or anything else that identifies it as someones pet, I think it's more fair for the dog to go to someone or somewhere, where it will not have to rely on hikers that will be almost completely abscent in the winter months, not to mention alot of hikers refuse to give a dog hand outs as this just promotes the dog to beg from them or others.

Local animal shelters are a excellent place to adopt a dog.

I disagree but I have my own reasons and they do not fall under the topic of this thread.

[Rough]

I have only been following the WhiteBlaze forums for less than a year but I suspect the "dogs on the trail" postings have been going on for a long time. The reason for this is that hikers feel strongly (dare I say passionate) about the subject and are aligned on both sides of the issue.

I have to express my admiration for Minnesotasmith's careful and well thought out replies on the behavior of dogs and their handlers. One doesn't have to be a dog hater to have experienced some of the things that he has listed (dogs barking at night, jumping up on hikers, shaking themselves off on hikers, crapping on the trail, threatening and biting hikers, etc.). The logical side of me can't help but agree that a dog's behavior is the responsibility of its handler and even the most well-trained ones remain unpredictable in an outdoor setting. Given that reality I can't help but prefer that folks leave their dogs home when going for a hike. I have felt that rush of adrenaline when I've looked up and seen an unleashed dog face staring at me on the trail.The other logical side of me (wow I have two) loves dogs, understands the companionship, loyalty, and protection they provide, knows that many dogs are well-behaved, has observed hiker-handlers politely holding their dogs to the side to let me pass on the trail, and recognizes the unique bond beteween man and canine. In their minds, hiking and camping with one's furry companion is the height of the experience.

What do to? Organizations such as the Green Mountain Club and Appalachian Trail Conference need to continue to educate hikers on proper dog etiquette with the same priority as Leave No Trace. Hikers should continue to request that handlers "please hold your dog" on the trail and thank them when they do so. Trailhead signs should reinforce that dogs should be leashed at all times and that handlers are responsible for their behavior ... and messes.

Is every handler going to act responsibly even with these measures? Undoubtedly not. Passions on this issue will rage on. Thank goodness for online places like WhiteBlaze that provide space for an educated dialogue.

And I do respect MS - sure he's angry but he's clearly not a dog hater. He's stating that there have been abuses and that the fix begins with the handler. Seems reasonable to me.

[Fiddler]

If you do encounter a dog on the trail, or anywhere else, that you feel may become aggressive do not smile at it. Speak softly if you want to, move non-aggressively, but don't smile. Any dog trainer or even the vet will verify this: To a dog a smile can be a challenge. You are showing your teeth. And to a dog teeth are weapons. If the dog thinks he has the superior weapons he just might accept your challenge.

[minnesotasmith]

I have only been following the WhiteBlaze forums for less than a year but I suspect the "dogs on the trail" postings have been going on for a long time. The reason for this is that hikers feel strongly (dare I say passionate) about the subject and are aligned on both sides of the issue.

I have to express my admiration for Minnesotasmith's careful and well thought out replies on the behavior of dogs and their handlers. One doesn't have to be a dog hater to have experienced some of the things that he has listed (dogs barking at night, jumping up on hikers, shaking themselves off on hikers, crapping on the trail, threatening and biting hikers, etc.). The logical side of me can't help but agree that a dog's behavior is the responsibility of its handler and even the most well-trained ones remain unpredictable in an outdoor setting. Given that reality I can't help but prefer that folks leave their dogs home when going for a hike. I have felt that rush of adrenaline when I've looked up and seen an unleashed dog face staring at me on the trail.The other logical side of me (wow I have two) loves dogs, understands the companionship, loyalty, and protection they provide, knows that many dogs are well-behaved, has observed hiker-handlers politely holding their dogs to the side to let me pass on the trail, and recognizes the unique bond beteween man and canine. In their minds, hiking and camping with one's furry companion is the height of the experience.

What do to? Organizations such as the Green Mountain Club and Appalachian Trail Conference need to continue to educate hikers on proper dog etiquette with the same priority as Leave No Trace. Hikers should continue to request that handlers "please hold your dog" on the trail and thank them when they do so. Trailhead signs should reinforce that dogs should be leashed at all times and that handlers are responsible for their behavior ... and messes.

Is every handler going to act responsibly even with these measures? Undoubtedly not. Passions on this issue will rage on. Thank goodness for online places like WhiteBlaze that provide space for an educated dialogue.

And I do respect MS - sure he's angry but he's clearly not a dog hater. He's stating that there have been abuses and that the fix begins with the handler. Seems reasonable to me.

Agreed with your positions. I don't hate dogs in general (growing up, and as an adult, I have owned multiple, and loved them). I just hate it when people intentionally allow their dogs to run loose on public property out of ignorance or sociopathy, so that those dogs inevitably terrorize innocent people on the Trail and damage the whole experience for everyone, including the wildlife. After all, is a little kid who gets chomped by someone's mutt going to want to go back on the AT anytime soon? Probably not, and there goes one more future adult hiker (and supporter of the Trail system) to become one more TV-watching couch potato who could care less about what we love.

[Twofiddy]

"My dogs are hikers, just like you and me. "

Oh? Do they vote? Do they (not you, they) pay taxes? Can they understandably explain LNT in English? Do they have 46 chromosomes? (Hint: humans have 46, dogs have 40.) Can they sign valid contracts, sue, be sued, or marry? Are they entitled to a space in a shelter if they get there before a later-arriving human?

Do Canadians Vote?? Do they pay taxes?? Can they all understand english?? Does one with down syndrome that comes to hike the trail have 46 chromosomes?? What is the relevancy of marriage?? Gay people cant get married in all 50 states and they can do all of the other things you mention?? And yes, if my dogs walked 20 miles during a day, and a shelter is relativly empty at say, sundown, they yes, my dogs will sleep in the shelter, in a very small amount of space. And if people arrive later, then the dogs can always go outside and sleep on the ground just outside the shelter. The dogs sleep better in the shelter because they do not have to stand guard and they become prey when they are sleeping. The same way that humans and there food bags become prey.

Nope to all of those. They're domestic animals, same as horses, pigs, goats, chickens, cows, etc., and are property. As most dogs on the AT eventually seem to cause problems on the Trail (by exhaustive recounting of this), I believe that the current policies of allowing dogs on ~90% of the AT as freely as is done is unfortunate, uninformed, and will likely eventually change to something more like the Smokies NP policies along the entire Trail.

This will never happen. There will never be any changes above and beyond the restrictions that are in place now. The corridor is secure, and most all agencies already have policy on this issue that allow dogs on leash, under verbal command, retrieving or hunting etc.

Now, Twofiddy, if your dogs do not ever try to run down wild animals around the Trail, don't pee/cr*p in the shelters, don't track mud into shelters, don't shake off when wet onto other hikers or their gear, don't bark when it's dark, don't try to steal food, don't walk on other hikers' bedding, and have not (so far) bitten anyone on the Trail, then, good for you; you are better than many at bringing your dog fully under control.

Just to show how much my dogs are like hikers, when was the last time that you saw hikers run down wild animals on the trail?? When was the last time that you saw hikers relieve them selves in the shelters?? And dont even tell me that you have never seen a hiker huddle in the corner of a shelter during a daytime thunderstorm and get the place all soaking wet so that later when others arrive to sleep for the night the place is soaked. DEAL WITH IT.

There's just that one more little thing you need to figure out how to do. You buy a leash (not overly long) for each dog that you are going to take on the AT, attach it before you get out of the car, and leave it on until your dog(s) is/are back in your car at the end of your hike, not once letting it go (unless you have tied it securely to a fixed object away from common areas like shelter areas and the Trail itself).

I suppose that I ought to get a leash for my rain coat, and my water bottle, and my water filter to?? They are all my property as well.

Why should you feel compelled to carry out this awful, terribly expensive, incredibly time-consuming and complex act (that my 5-YO niece has no trouble remembering how to do and to remember to do, every time she walks her little dog) before taking your dog out on the Trail, every single time?

I am happy for your 5yo niece. I sport a bumper sticker on my Jeep, My Labrador is smarter than your honor student.

It is because animals are inherently unpredictable (yes, yours, too*), and cannot be expected to be responsible for their behavior the way a human can, you are (by bringing an off-leash animal) exposing other people on the Trail to a risk they did NOT agree to, by bringing a domestic (nonservice so unnecessary to your being able to hike) animal onto the Trail. Even if it is a small risk, it is one those other hikers did not agree to. (If you can show me a written agreement by all hikers using the Trail, in advance of you again setting foot on the Trail, I'll retract that last.) You need to set up a system of control that is NOT dependent upon your dog's willingness to follow orders to eliminate this issue. A leash you hold, a fence the dog is behind, a chain attached to a fixed object (again, in a place a hiker would not normally want to go, so along the Trail or near/in a shelter is out), in a cage, inside a locked vehicle with the windows up -- take your pick. "Voice command control" does not meet the requirement, so is not on that list.

If dogs were such a threat to humans do you think that we would have let them live right beside us for so long?? We would have killed them and eaten them.

As for RISK?? Did you sign a waiver for snake bites, bear hugs, skeeters, and any other natural things that happen on the trail?? The problem with people and there dogs is that they let just about anyone own one these days. You dont have to be responsible or teach your animal anything. Dogs are very smart. My dogs know who the boss is, they know who feeds them, they know about 50 vocabulary commands, they cowher immediatly when I demand something from them, they listen. That is why they are both hunting champions, why the both have over 1000 miles of backpacking experience, why they both can sit on the front seats of my Jeep with no leash while parked outside a walmart parking lot (no doors on Jeep) and never even think about getting out unless they are put in some kind of danger. Another HUMANS acts of Stupidity are not reason enough for me to not allow my dogs to live the way that the do.

*Every time I, a member of my family, or a friend of mine has been bitten with zero provocation by some inconsiderate stupid lowlife scum @sshole's loose dog on public property, the hapless owner has exclaimed, "But he's never done that before. I trained him not to act like that. He's not the type to bite someone; I can't understand it..."

Sorry about your luck


PS

I also do not feed my dogs typical dog food. They eat bones and raw food, and yes that means they eat alot of fresh uncooked meat. I want to hear it now... read meat encourages dogs to bite?? Come on I know some one is going to say it.

[Chip]

There are a bunch of threads regarding trail dogs on Whiteblaze. Some of you may wish to refer back to those ?? I have stated before on a few of those a few of the rules I follow when hiking with my dog. I will do so again
because no one can predict what can happen on any trail at any given time whether you hike with a dog or not. So when hiking with my dog the RULES are:

1. Always keep your dog on a leash. You will have greater control over your dog no matter how well trained your pooch is.
2. LEAVE NO TRACE. Bury the dog waste as you would your own. Some areas require that you carry out waste, (so do the same for dog waste).
3. DO NOT USE TRAIL SHELTERS. Tent or tarp away (at least 100yds) from
shelters. Not everyone wants to be near a dog on their hike. Dogs and shelters DO NOT MIX. A shelter can be a strange place for many reasons.
First, the other hikers there will be strange to your dog. The mice at night could cause a BIG distraction. The smell of food will be another temptation.
These are just a few reasons to camp away from shelters. The idea is for everyone to get a good nights sleep.
4.. Keep your dog out of water sources.

When you hike with a dog it is a different type of hike and you must make adjustments to your trek. You have a responsibility to the trail. This includes the rules listed above. A dog on a leash can be pulled back
if it makes an attempt to jump on another hiker, chase wildlife and you can also keep the dog out of any other trouble you might find along the way.

[Rouen]

I get a strange feeling no one really read the original post, I'm not talking about my dog, but rather the many strays on the trail, and I have ready several of the back posts about dogs on the forums I read on this site and others, but those were all about people bringing their dogs, not the dogs that are already on the trail.

[minnesotasmith]

I know this does not have to do with the original post but how is this self defense? Fish did not shoot the dogs but rather the dog walker. If you feel threatened then shoot what you feel threatened by.

Perhaps he was egging on the dogs to attack Mr. Fish? The article wasn't clear on that, agreed. I posted it to show how the owner/custodian of a dog can be directly considered fully liable for anything the dogs in his care (whether leashed or not) commit. That is, it appears to me that the owner of a dog can be considered to have committed whatever his dog does (his dog kills a child, the owner goes to jail). Makes sense to me.

[Ridge]

........As for RISK?? Did you sign a waiver for snake bites, bear hugs, skeeters, and any other natural things that happen on the trail??........

Natural? Dogs are not part of nature/wildlife, they should not be part of the AT either. Just as in the GSMNP and Baxter SP/Katahdin, were dogs are NOT allowed, the rest of the AT should be the same! See what the Rangers in those places do if they catch you with a dog.

[KirkMcquest]

Do Canadians Vote?? Do they pay taxes?? Can they all understand english?? Does one with down syndrome that comes to hike the trail have 46 chromosomes?? What is the relevancy of marriage?? Gay people cant get married in all 50 states and they can do all of the other things you mention?? And yes, if my dogs walked 20 miles during a day, and a shelter is relativly empty at say, sundown, they yes, my dogs will sleep in the shelter, in a very small amount of space. And if people arrive later, then the dogs can always go outside and sleep on the ground just outside the shelter. The dogs sleep better in the shelter because they do not have to stand guard and they become prey when they are sleeping. The same way that humans and there food bags become prey.


This will never happen. There will never be any changes above and beyond the restrictions that are in place now. The corridor is secure, and most all agencies already have policy on this issue that allow dogs on leash, under verbal command, retrieving or hunting etc.

Just to show how much my dogs are like hikers, when was the last time that you saw hikers run down wild animals on the trail?? When was the last time that you saw hikers relieve them selves in the shelters?? And dont even tell me that you have never seen a hiker huddle in the corner of a shelter during a daytime thunderstorm and get the place all soaking wet so that later when others arrive to sleep for the night the place is soaked. DEAL WITH IT.


I suppose that I ought to get a leash for my rain coat, and my water bottle, and my water filter to?? They are all my property as well. etc..

here,here.

[KirkMcquest]

Do Canadians Vote?? Do they pay taxes?? Can they all understand english?? Does one with down syndrome that comes to hike the trail have 46 chromosomes?? What is the relevancy of marriage?? Gay people cant get married in all 50 states and they can do all of the other things you mention?? And yes, if my dogs walked 20 miles during a day, and a shelter is relativly empty at say, sundown, they yes, my dogs will sleep in the shelter, in a very small amount of space. And if people arrive later, then the dogs can always go outside and sleep on the ground just outside the shelter. The dogs sleep better in the shelter because they do not have to stand guard and they become prey when they are sleeping. The same way that humans and there food bags become prey.


This will never happen. There will never be any changes above and beyond the restrictions that are in place now. The corridor is secure, and most all agencies already have policy on this issue that allow dogs on leash, under verbal command, retrieving or hunting etc.

Just to show how much my dogs are like hikers, when was the last time that you saw hikers run down wild animals on the trail?? When was the last time that you saw hikers relieve them selves in the shelters?? And dont even tell me that you have never seen a hiker huddle in the corner of a shelter during a daytime thunderstorm and get the place all soaking wet so that later when others arrive to sleep for the night the place is soaked. DEAL WITH IT.


I suppose that I ought to get a leash for my rain coat, and my water bottle, and my water filter to?? They are all my property as well. etc..

here,here. well said

[KirkMcquest]

Natural? Dogs are not part of nature/wildlife, they should not be part of the AT either.

But they are. I think alot of people would disagree with you

[Ridge]

But they are. I think alot of people would disagree with you

But, if they are wildlife, why won't the GSMNP and Baxter SP let you hike thru there with your domesticated pet?

I believe its the same reasons a lot of hikers dislike having them around, along with spreading disease.

[KirkMcquest]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/science...7-dog-usat.htm

"............ dogs generate disease-causing bacteria that can make people sick. Studies done in the last few years put dogs third or fourth on the list of contributors to bacteria in contaminated waters. "Dogs are one of our usual suspects," says Valerie Harwood, a microbiologist at the University of South Florida. "At certain sites, we find their effect to be significant."
It doesn't take a Ph.D. to figure out that dog do is nasty. But it took science to determine how nasty it is.
From mutt to blue-blooded champion, all dogs harbor so-called coliform bacteria, which live in the gut. The group includes E. coli, a bacterium that can cause disease, and fecal coliform bacteria, which spread through feces. Dogs also carry salmonella and giardia. Environmental officials use measurements of some of these bacteria as barometers of how much fecal matter has contaminated a body of water........"

People are the NUMBER ONE carrier of diseases that make people sick