Has Society Become Softer

[full conditions]

I'm 60 and have spent my summers guiding rafts on southeastern rivers since the late 70's and the kids we get nowadays are every bit as tough as any we got thirty or forty years ago. They put in 8-10 hours pushing rubber down whitewater rivers and party all night and show up for work the next day on time ready to work. I mostly like this generation very much - great bunch of kids - savvy, smart, and funny. If I have one negative observation I'd say they have incredibly short attention spans and getting them to go two hours without staring at their phones is like watching a junkie try to get thru Thanksgiving dinner.

[Sarcasm the elf]

I’ll be honest, I’m happy society has become softer because historically speaking, our species has really been a bunch of dicks.

[Photodog]

We will have to become tougher as we age because it is very expensive to get care and help. People who have had children see them move away seeking better jobs. Families spread out across the country. The society as a whole ignores the needs of the elderly as they become widowed and fixed income fails to meet expenses. This applies to even the healthy ones. Getting old is not for sissies is right. Better not sit around inside watching TV and eating junk food. Better stay hardy enjoying the outdoors so you have a chance to die with dignity.


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[Seatbelt]

I'm 60 and have spent my summers guiding rafts on southeastern rivers since the late 70's and the kids we get nowadays are every bit as tough as any we got thirty or forty years ago. They put in 8-10 hours pushing rubber down whitewater rivers and party all night and show up for work the next day on time ready to work. I mostly like this generation very much - great bunch of kids - savvy, smart, and funny. If I have one negative observation I'd say they have incredibly short attention spans and getting them to go two hours without staring at their phones is like watching a junkie try to get thru Thanksgiving dinner.

You got any extra kids you can send up my way? Around here they can't get to work on time, don't want to put it in 8 hours (forget overtime) and have a very limited amount of stamina for their age.

[stephanD]

I’ll be honest, I’m happy society has become softer because historically speaking, our species has really been a bunch of dicks.

We are still a bunch of dicks, only softer...

[Leo L.]

https://www.amazon.de/Long-Walk-True.../dp/149302261X
Not sure if the story sticks straight to the truth, but I think I wouldn't have survived more than 24hrs.
So yes, we became softer. I don't see any problem in this.

[imscotty]

https://www.amazon.de/Long-Walk-True.../dp/149302261X
Not sure if the story sticks straight to the truth, but I think I wouldn't have survived more than 24hrs.
So yes, we became softer. I don't see any problem in this.

I enjoyed that book. It was made into a movie called 'The Way Back'

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_way_back

[Another Kevin]

"Becoming softer" is something that parents lament of their kids' generation.

Parents work hard to make sure that their kids have it easier than they did - and then resent the kids for it.

Whether the kids have it any easier is debatable. The kids have a different set of problems. There's always a different set of problems. I'm glad that I'm not in my twenties nowadays, struggling under a crippling burden of student debt, unaffordable housing, and work available only in the gig economy.

And - well, I'm glad that I wasn't born much earlier. 1950's antibiotics saved my hearing - and I have nearly-deaf cousins who are only a little older, who had the same sort of infection. God knows what diseases I escaped in 1960's immunization campaigns - certainly, all the kids knew grownups who'd been damaged by paralytic polio. Measles damn near killed me. 1990's surgical technique definitely saved my life - which was quite touch-and-go, even the surgeons weren't all that optimistic. 2010's surgical technique has saved my vision - and I had an auntie who went blind from the same condition in the 1970's with nothing to be done for it. I wouldn't have been tougher if I'd been born thirty years earlier and been part of the Greatest Generation. I'd have been dead.

Kids are always disrespectful to grownups - because it's impossible to give the respect that the elders think they're entitled to and still retain any personal autonomy.

And for all the complaining I hear, I can't help remembering one nice group of college kids that I met on the trail. The guy who'd dragged his friends along said to me, "Wow, I think it's great that you're doing this at your age. My parents must be ten years younger, and I can't them to do anything!. Yeah, I wanted to slap him. But he was being nice, as best he knew how. (I gave the kids a lift to their car - they'd made a wrong turn and came out at the wrong trailhead, with a 5-mile roadwalk to get back to where they wanted to be.)

Anyway, those kids were doing a section of Devil's Path in the Catskills. You can't be entirely soft and take on that hike. It's an infamously tough trail.

[Traffic Jam]

I'm 60 and have spent my summers guiding rafts on southeastern rivers since the late 70's and the kids we get nowadays are every bit as tough as any we got thirty or forty years ago. They put in 8-10 hours pushing rubber down whitewater rivers and party all night and show up for work the next day on time ready to work. I mostly like this generation very much - great bunch of kids - savvy, smart, and funny. If I have one negative observation I'd say they have incredibly short attention spans and getting them to go two hours without staring at their phones is like watching a junkie try to get thru Thanksgiving dinner.

Nice! Totally agree.

Except for one thing...there are as many older adults glued to their phones as younger. Sit in a restaurant and observe. They won’t say one word to each other during an entire meal! Among my kids’ peers (early 20’s to 30) I’ve seen a trend that they are becoming more conscious of cell phone use when out with others.

What I see is a generation that is more socially and politically engaged, more accepting of diversity, has to work harder for less opportunities, and has to shoulder more financial burdens than my generation.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I often have to listen to some of my coworkers complaining about their "entitled millennial" children - and most times simply proving the old adage, "The nut doesn't fall far from the tree."

[fiddlehead]

Electricity changed the world.
And nylon (and since then cuban) changed hiking. (and trail runners)
and now cell phones.
I believe if you prefer, you can still find places that have people without electricity, cell phones or trail runners, and they are much hardier than I. (but they probably have nylon)
Back in the 60's , we hiked in jeans and used cotton sleeping bags with heavy boots and framed packs. we thought we were tough. But could only do 10-12 mile days.
I doubt there are many from even back then who could beat Karel Sabbe's time.

[Odd Man Out]

There was much whining on our local Facebook Community group page yesterday about the fact that scools were not cancelled due to extreme cold when the overnight temps dipped to a few deg below zero.

[Leo L.]

...
I believe if you prefer, you can still find places that have people without electricity, cell phones or trail runners, and they are much hardier than I.
...

You know better from own experience than me, I had one such encounter two years ago:

We had been on a trip to some remote desert mountains and had the obligatory guide with us.
The one we've got assigned didn't speak anything (we later found out that he was deaf), he was a chubby elderly guy carrying a torn kid's backpack, carrying an old sleepingbag roll in hands, wearing sandals.
Note: We were going to hike up a difficult mountain, were expecting some rock climbing, and intended to stay up for the night and come down the other side.
We were carrying all our modern gear, including ropes&harness.

The guy kept pace up the mountain just fine, finding the way by himself (we never got to know if he ever had been up there before - guess not).
When we came to the climbing part, I (being a former rock climber) hesistated and as there was no point to belay off was a bit too scared to continue.
The chubby old guy took off his sandals, threw them up atop the rocks, and climbed up the step, his backpack and bag roll dangling off his shoulders.
Whow. We managed to follow.
In the evening we reached the corrie before the summit where we intended to spend the night.
There was only little wood to be found, so we had just a small cooking fire and prepared for the night.
My friend and me found a sandy spot each, spread out our pads and bags, and crept into the bags as it had become really chilly.
I used my Thermarest Pro Lite+, Exped 500g down bag, doubled up with my down jacket, put on all layers, hat and balaclava, etc. - and still was not really warm.
The old guy took a flat-ish spot on the rocky slope, prepared it a little bit by taking away the bigger pointy stones, unrolled his bag (it was an old flimsy sythetic bag - and he had no pad), lay flat on his back, closed the eyes and did not do any move for the whole night.
We seriously belived he was dead, could not belive he could have any sleep or even survive under these harsh conditions.

Next day, he opened his eyes, started making a fire for morning tea, and life continued like nothing special had hapened.

[Traveler]

There was much whining on our local Facebook Community group page yesterday about the fact that scools were not cancelled due to extreme cold when the overnight temps dipped to a few deg below zero.

Apparently necessary for the community, but does not, in and of itself, denote lack of "toughness", it only reflects the decisions public officials have to make in a litigious society. I've known people who can fix a clutch on a muddy corduroy road in mid-winter but have trouble using a cell phone. Does that mean they are/aren't tough, stupid, or just have different skill sets and related experience. Taking someone who has never left the city and place them in a wilderness environment with a hatchet and a knife will probably not fare all that well unless someone comes along to help educate them and develop some skills. Conversely, taking someone living in the wilderness and place them in an urban environment with a cell phone and pen will probably not fare well either, until someone comes along to help educate them and they can develop skills specific to that environment.

Though people had tougher lives in 1880 America, had they the same technological, medical, educational, and economic advances Americans have today, would they be any different than we are as a society today? We are still the same species, which will exploit whatever resources we can to survive.

[full conditions]

Nice! Totally agree.

Except for one thing...there are as many older adults glued to their phones as younger. Sit in a restaurant and observe. They won’t say one word to each other during an entire meal! Among my kids’ peers (early 20’s to 30) I’ve seen a trend that they are becoming more conscious of cell phone use when out with others.

What I see is a generation that is more socially and politically engaged, more accepting of diversity, has to work harder for less opportunities, and has to shoulder more financial burdens than my generation.

Excellent point. I used to take public school teachers up to the US Holocaust Museum for a week of study. One of the highlights of the week was an address by an Auschwitz survivor named Letti - an amazingly compelling story - and during her recitation (less than an hour) I saw no less than eight or nine of those teachers women in their 30's and 40's) on their smart phones. They just couldn't stop themselves.

[BillyGr]

There was much whining on our local Facebook Community group page yesterday about the fact that scools were not cancelled due to extreme cold when the overnight temps dipped to a few deg below zero.

They should tell everyone they go by the Alaska rules - no cancellation of school until it hits -50 (which, according to the well known sled dog racer that said this does happen generally a couple times per year).

[perdidochas]

Nice! Totally agree.

Except for one thing...there are as many older adults glued to their phones as younger. Sit in a restaurant and observe. They won’t say one word to each other during an entire meal! Among my kids’ peers (early 20’s to 30) I’ve seen a trend that they are becoming more conscious of cell phone use when out with others.

What I see is a generation that is more socially and politically engaged, more accepting of diversity, has to work harder for less opportunities, and has to shoulder more financial burdens than my generation.

My observations exactly. In fact, it's getting to the point where I see more older people on their phone during dinner than the youngsters.

Personally, I have respect for the upcoming generations. I think they will be able to step up to whatever challenge arises, they just haven't been forced to step up yet.

[RockDoc]

Decrease in thru success corresponds with growth in obesity, which began around 1980.

[scope]

Softer yes. Better yes, though because we are "softer", we don't do things done previously as well as they were done before. For instance, we have better gear, but this mostly allows our insights and natural instincts to wane. All the while, we're developing new insights and instincts that will benefit us in future endeavors. That's the nature of our evolution. Doesn't mean we might not suffer a bit when we try to do old things with our diminished skills.

[evyck da fleet]

Obesity statistics would say yes.

Would I rather drive five minutes to the store to buy a steak, push a button on my grill and have dinner in twenty minutes as opposed to track down a deer, kill it, clean it, etc yes

But I think more people are working longer hours, taking less vacation and spending more time indoors because of work and the disparity in wages for the working class and executives.

Now with the tech advances since the early 90s I was able to complete a thru which I wouldn’t have done back then. Does that make current me more or less soft than younger me?