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  1. #21
    Registered User JNI64's Avatar
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    I went with the quilt for the Same reason I toss and turn a lot side to side you just tuck in . I have the hammock gear 0 degrees quilt with 4oz. Of extra, comes with draw string tighten at the foot box as well as buttons up to about knee level. At the head also has snap button and draw string to tighten around the shoulders. I think it came in at 20 oz. Very nice loft I've had it down to sub zero and beyond combining with down hoodie from zpacks. I also use the neoair.

  2. #22

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    I turned my 0* Dow bag into a quilt. I removed the zipper and all draw chords and got the weight down to 22oz. I left the foot box intact. I sleep on a 1" self inflating Thermorest lite in summer and a 1 1/2" self inflating Thermorest in the winter. If it real cold I'll also use a closed cell mat under the self inflating mat. I can open it up to vent. I can roll around a toss and turn w/o any constriction. I've used it down to -6*f and wearing my down jacket I slept very comfortable. I used a 20* bag on my first thru hike. Will never use anything but a quilt again.

  3. #23
    Registered User Maineiac64's Avatar
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    Personally I sleep cold and prefer a bag for colder temps but do like a quilt when it is warmer.

  4. #24
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    I have and still use a 25+ year old mummy bag (Feathered Friends) that I bought and used on half the AT, and a plethora of other hikes. I've gotten old and fat so I literally grew out of that thing. My wife & kids use it though and I washed it a couple weeks ago and I have to say it is as good as the day I bought it. It was ultra-light when I bought it at 2lbs for a 25-30 deg. bag (I forget what it is rated).

    I've went through all kinds of quilts and bags since I bought that one. I've bought and sold them used to see what I like best. There is no magic bullet but what I use now is a Hammock Gear Burrow Econ 20 deg. along with a down jacket top with hood. I don't like the lightest fabrics used in the lowest weight quilts. I like the extra heft of the Econ series from HG and it is cheap in comparison. I'll carry the extra 2-3 ounces. When you talk about a bag/quilt it is probably best to talk about a sleep system, especially if you use a quilt. The advantage of the quilt is the flexibility. You carry a puffy jacket which gets used in camp and you use a combination of down or fleece hoods which are useful in camp as well as part of your sleep system. You can do the same thing with a bag and if I were dealing with entire trips under 20-25 deg. I'd probably just carry a bag.

    Sleeping pad is just as important. After decades of experimenting with pads I still like the original Therm-a-Rest self-inflating pads in 3/4 length. They have always been pretty bullet-proof for me, low in pack volume and easier to set up than the current thicker inflating mattresses. Add a foam pad if you are dealing with winter/snow and you are set for almost all conditions. I sleep fine on the thinner pad, better than I do on the thicker ones which bounce and crinkle as you turn. YMMV.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slo-go'en View Post
    I just don't see the point of a quilt. You give up a bit of convenience for not much weight savings and that's really the bottom line right?
    I'd say the point is to sleep well and carry as little as you can. But it is all a tradeoff. I scoffed at quilts at one time. Didn't think they saved much if any weight because you have to supplement them with so many things. It isn't about weight for me though. It is about the flexibility and sleeping well.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slo-go'en View Post
    I just don't see the point of a quilt. You give up a bit of convenience for not much weight savings and that's really the bottom line right? I don't know what I'd do without a hood to hold my pillow in place
    .
    Ever try to sleep on stomach in a mummy bag?

    Quilts and more convenient to get in and out of, more convenient for rolling around and tossing and turning in, right up until the point you start to get cold.

  7. #27
    Registered User Venchka's Avatar
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    Where is JustBill’s treatise on Quilts vs. Sleeping bags?
    Bottom Line: According to Bill, 20 degrees Fahrenheit is the point of diminishing returns for quilts.
    His lengthy and well thought out explanation is buried somewhere in the archives of WhiteBlaze.
    Good luck finding it.
    I’m in the non-restrictive mummy bags for the Rockies from late August to early October camp. WM Alpinlite and Antelope specifically.
    Y’all use what works for y’all.
    Wayne

  8. #28
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    YES, I miss the hood in a mummy bag in a bag rated 25* and below. In 35-40*+ I don't miss the hood and switch to a quilt.

    Details matter. For me, I cowboy camp whenever opportunity presents itself. I don't enclose in a tent or hammock most often. Another important detail is I customarily take the temp rating of a quilt or bag up to 15* below it's temp rating though I'm more apt to do this with the same accurately temp rated mummy bag rather than a quilt. I do many high elev hikes also. In other words I tend to experience greater exposure. Another important detail is in the way I sleep. I start out on my back and toss from side to side as a rotisserie sleeper. The seal around the shoulders and the sides of a quilt where they attach to the pad has to work exceptionally well if I'm going to retain the warmed air inside. Drafts suck big time for me in temps below freezing. It reduces one of the aspects I rely - a sound restful sleep. I've found most mummy bags hold in the heat better than quilts. From what I can tell this is in part because the hood is integrated rather than separate. Although hybrid quilts like ZPacks with a zip I've found hold in the heat better with less need to be aware of quilt fiddle factors. Yet another factor in this is that I daily put in on avg 14-16 hrs on the move not in camp or in a bag or quilt. I hit trails as a hiker not mainly a camper or doing other things than not moving. SO, when stop time comes and the way I approach backpacking I NEED those 7-8 hrs restful sleep. When I don't get it over several days my mind wanders and performance falls off. I get cold and fatigued easier. Food consumption actually rises. This snowballs until I get injured or make bad decisions. It factors into consumable wt and bulk carried too.

    All that I glean from choosing a quilt or mummy.

    IMHO, one necessity on and off trail is in knowing thyself. Everything people say or advise including myself are just guides to consider not necessarily fully personally embrace.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venchka View Post
    Where is JustBill’s treatise on Quilts vs. Sleeping bags?
    Bottom Line: According to Bill, 20 degrees Fahrenheit is the point of diminishing returns for quilts.
    His lengthy and well thought out explanation is buried somewhere in the archives of WhiteBlaze.
    Good luck finding it.
    I’m in the non-restrictive mummy bags for the Rockies from late August to early October camp. WM Alpinlite and Antelope specifically.
    Y’all use what works for y’all.
    Wayne
    JB hasn't been the only one to note these factors or consequences or ideas. What JB brings to the table is his knowledge as a quilt designer and manufacturer. He also isn't afraid to go into details which long winded folks like me know can be critically significant. I'll be the first to state JB is appreciated.

  10. #30
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    If mummy bags are too confining perhaps one hasn't sufficiently explored different cut mummies, different sized mummies(OMG FF and WM have so many different cuts and sizes alone), and differently designed mummies that have more stretch like Montbell's Super Stretch and cut on the bias/Spiral bags that have more "give", or Nemos, etc. ? Also female mummies tend to be cut differently than unisex or male mummies so that might make the critical comfort difference. I know of some males that prefer sleeping in a female designed bag because the way their male bodies are shaped/sized or sleep. Reverse that. I know of some females that prefer bags designed for males. What I'm getting at is mummy bags differ. They are not all the same. IMHO it's better to understand this demoing and exploring mummy options comprehensively before throwing them out to embrace quilts ...as quilts are in fashion. They are the rage so some things, perhaps negative things, can be ignored in making sweeping quilt and mummy bag generalizations. For example, quilt based sleep systems are always lighter wt, less expensive, or...than conventional mummy bag based sleep systems. That little trapezoid piece of a mummy bag underneath and a hood may make more a difference than quilt promoters tend to suggest are useless wt and bulk. REMEMBER quilts largely were born out of UL philosophy. And even though I label myself as a ULer some ULer's including myself can rah rah their own gear and approaches ignoring critical aspects for other users having different goals, set ups, and approaches...that only become evident through personal usage and crash honesty. ULers can and very often leave out info.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    IMHO, one necessity on and off trail is in knowing thyself. Everything people say or advise including myself are just guides to consider not necessarily fully personally embrace.
    No wiser words have ever been written in an backpacking internet forum. Which isn't a high bar..... but take it for what it is worth.

  12. #32
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    I use a quilt to around 35 to 40 degrees below that I switch over to a mummy. If you want light and quality western mountaineering but man are they pricey.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Adams View Post
    I turned my 0* Dow bag into a quilt. I removed the zipper and all draw chords and got the weight down to 22oz. I left the foot box intact. I sleep on a 1" self inflating Thermorest lite in summer and a 1 1/2" self inflating Thermorest in the winter. If it real cold I'll also use a closed cell mat under the self inflating mat. I can open it up to vent. I can roll around a toss and turn w/o any constriction. I've used it down to -6*f and wearing my down jacket I slept very comfortable. I used a 20* bag on my first thru hike. Will never use anything but a quilt again.
    Well, you got my UL attention. Do they call you Sleepy, Sneezy, or Bashful? R U a dwarf? Do tell details UL Professor how you managed 22 oz for a 0* quilt? Brand, model, width, length, FP, fill wt(best guesstimate), face/interior fabrics. That's a really good wt if all is accurate. Anything behind the curtain oh wizard of UL?

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by ncwild View Post
    So I am looking for a new sleeping bag or quilt. I do not like the confining restrictions of a mummy bag so I am thinking going with a semi-rectangular bag or perhaps a quilt. Thinking of something 20 degree rated for Spring hiking in the Southern Appalachians. I want to keep the weight at a pound to 1.5 pounds. Not sure if i like not having any down underneath like in the quilt. Will be using a Neo Air 3.7 R value, 72″ length. For those of you that have switched to a quilt, do you still prefer the quilt, advantages, disadvantages? I realize the quilts are cheaper and less confining. Do you miss the mummy bag and the hood that they come with? Any input appreciated. Thanks.
    To me, that bolded part is one of the main reasons for moving to a quilt.
    I'm not one to try steering someone else toward one or the other, but I'll give you my "bag vs. quilt" perspective, because I like a lot of room, too, even though I'm more of a back sleeper lately.
    I currently(and for >5yrs now) use a size 6' Wide Katabatic Palisade quilt. If I had to replace it tomorrow with a bag, it'd be either a Feathered Friends Kestrel UL($469) or Western Mountaineering Megalite($470).
    At today's pricing, a 900 fill 6' Wide Palisade + my Goosefeet hood is going to total $485, or $490 with optional 900 fill Hyperdry.
    So while there's no real price difference with a premium bag of comparable quality, in this case the quilt actually costs a bit more when you add in the price of the hood.

    The quilt + hood is going to weigh 21.5oz. The bags are listed at 27 and 24oz, respectively(Kestrel shown as 3oz heavier than the Megalite, but with 3.7oz more fill).
    So there's no major weight difference, either.

    Both of those bags are wide models with a shoulder girth of 64" vs the standard versions' 59-60".
    My Wide Palisade has a width of 58" at the shoulder. With the edges secured 4" apart underneath me, it has the same girth as my 62" mummy bags, which is about as small as I'd want to use.
    But the distance between the outermost baffles of both my Exped mats, and where I actually attach the quilt most often, is 14.5". I'll usually draw the sides in more in sub-freezing temps, but that's a girth of 72.5".
    And that is a big difference. Very roomy.

    On the quilt questions:
    No, I don't miss a bag, and because I went "oversized"(I'm >50" at the shoulder, but under 5'7") and got a quilt with a list of performance-enhancing features that include an effective pad attachment system, I do not feel it has any disadvantages.

    I think the problems most people have with quilts is that they bought the wrong one for their needs. Like getting a quilt that is too small for the sake of minimizing weight. Or one that isn't as warm. Yeah, my 30F quilt weighs 3oz more than some competitors. Wonder if that has anything to do with being 3" wider and having 2oz more down
    I could use Katabatic's size Small(5'6") quilts in their regular width, and know this because I have a 50F summer quilt with similar measurements. But I also knew when I bought my Palisade that I couldn't stand drafts, wanted room to move around, and that it was going to be used at temps much lower than its rating with a down hoody and other layers.
    So I bought the 6' Wide instead.
    The weight difference between those sizes in a current Palisade is 3.8oz.

    The second night I used my Palisade in the field it was with supplemental layers at -2F, and I was fine. Obviously, a 30F quilt is not intended to be used at that temp, but I did the same kind of thing with a sleeping bag before, and the point is that the fact it was a quilt was not a limiting factor.

    All that to say if you decide to get a quilt, make sure to get one that has the features and sizing appropriate to your expectations, so you don't become one of the people who were disappointed because they didn't. I read some of this stuff on the internet, and often wonder if the quilt isn't getting blamed for "operator deficiency"...
    Last edited by OwenM; 03-05-2019 at 14:38.

  15. #35
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    That's an appreciated nicely detailed post Owen. You're aware details are significantly important in quilt based sleep systems which can often be ignored or minimalized in many quilt verse bag comparisons.

    This is good:At today's pricing, a 900 fill 6' Wide Palisade + my Goosefeet hood is going to total $485, or $490 with optional 900 fill Hyperdry.
    So while there's no real price difference with a premium bag of comparable quality, in this case the quilt actually costs a bit more when you add in the price of the hood.

    That's not something always recognized or shared. You're making like apples to apples comparisons and stating the opposite of many mainstream thoughts on quilt based sleep systems being less financially costly as if it's a given. And, I like you're recognizing that possibility while not being anti quilt judgmental.


    Katabatic pricing options, of which some bristled, have widened to now include 850 FP Hyper Dry Duck Down which is lower in cost than premium goose down in the same FP. When I bought a Katabatic 15* Sawatch opted for 850 FP HyperDry Goose down fill. It cost $550. There was no 850 FP HyperDry Duck down option then. The same quilt has now dropped in price to $445 if the duck down options chosen,...a substantial cost decrease if not overly concerned about possible differences in duck verse goose down. It prolly factors heavily into why Kat is now Sold Out of the 850 HyperDry Duck Down option.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    That's an appreciated nicely detailed post Owen. You're aware details are significantly important in quilt based sleep systems which can often be ignored or minimalized in many quilt verse bag comparisons.

    This is good:At today's pricing, a 900 fill 6' Wide Palisade + my Goosefeet hood is going to total $485, or $490 with optional 900 fill Hyperdry.
    So while there's no real price difference with a premium bag of comparable quality, in this case the quilt actually costs a bit more when you add in the price of the hood.

    That's not something always recognized or shared. You're making like apples to apples comparisons and stating the opposite of many mainstream thoughts on quilt based sleep systems being less financially costly as if it's a given. And, I like you're recognizing that possibility while not being anti quilt judgmental.


    Katabatic pricing options, of which some bristled, have widened to now include 850 FP Hyper Dry Duck Down which is lower in cost than premium goose down in the same FP. When I bought a Katabatic 15* Sawatch opted for 850 FP HyperDry Goose down fill. It cost $550. There was no 850 FP HyperDry Duck down option then. The same quilt has now dropped in price to $445 if the duck down options chosen,...a substantial cost decrease if not overly concerned about possible differences in duck verse goose down. It prolly factors heavily into why Kat is now Sold Out of the 850 HyperDry Duck Down option.
    Do you use any 850 quilts or bags?

    Once I got a 900fp quilt I dont think ill ever to back. Compared to my 850 downtek. It lofts much faster, maintains loft, and overall just performs much better. The treated down is always clumpier. If i put my 900fp quilt in the sun within 10 minutes it looks like its about to burst! My 850dt doesnt do that.

    I think treated down is overrated.... straight up old fashioned 900 fill is where its at.

    Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk

  17. #37
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    All that to say if you decide to get a quilt, make sure to get one that has the features and sizing appropriate to your expectations, so you don't become one of the people who were disappointed because they didn't. I read some of this stuff on the internet, and often wonder if the quilt isn't getting blamed for "operator deficiency"...

    Great
    advise!

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastfoxengineering View Post
    Do you use any 850 quilts or bags?

    Once I got a 900fp quilt I dont think ill ever to back. Compared to my 850 downtek. It lofts much faster, maintains loft, and overall just performs much better. The treated down is always clumpier. If i put my 900fp quilt in the sun within 10 minutes it looks like its about to burst! My 850dt doesnt do that.

    I think treated down is overrated.... straight up old fashioned 900 fill is where its at.

    Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk
    Yes, as well as 900, and 950 FP goose down. As a rule I don't go lower than 850 in bags and quilts but I'm an anal UL and SULer that is concerned with what some see as minor performance differences. More so I recognize these pieces as high ticket items I get many nights and possibly more than a decade maybe two.

    The 20* 950+ FP premium GOOSE DOWN FF Swallow UL is probably my highest quickest lofting bag. Lofting goes beyond merely FP though. Other details are important. i.e.: design, chamber shape, baffle loading, fabric traits, user treatments of gear(as Owen savvily stated can influence perspectives). It's super lofty and is conservatively temp rated(always an important detail for my approaches! However, compressing to reduce volume can be more time consuming.

    I prefer goose rather than duck down in bags and quilts for a variety of reasons. In my experiences duck tends to be clumpier because the clusters are smaller as it comes from smaller and less mature birds often coming from places like China as a byproduct of duck food consumption where young birds are desired to be quickly brought to food harvest compared to the same FP that comes from the best goose down, that in some cases may be harvested NOT as a by product of food consumption, like from goose nests after the goslings have fledged. In high down fill wts I trend toward goose for this reason; it's less clumpier than the same FP best goose down and hence it lofts faster. I have a keen olfactory sense making possible duck down odor more noticeable. I dont find goose down to be odorous at all. Other factors play into this. Some marketers of duck down suggest these two have no characteristic or performance differences in the same FP. I disagree as do some others who market Hungarian or French Grey goose. As demanding goose down commodity markets may increase the price even further of the very highest FP goose downs for the highest end applications we're seeing more availability, more marketing, and a lower price pt with the duck down option. For example, Allied Feather, one of the premier feather suppliers is now offering different FP down options.
    https://www.downandfeathercompany.co.../goose-vs-duck
    http://www.standardfiber.com/materia...cs/duck-goose/
    http://www.valandre.com/down.html Always some marketing hype but also possibly some individually applicable valid pts

    I chose 850 FP HyperDry goose down for the Sawatch because I intended to use it to 5* somewhat regularly with a MLD Superlight bivy often on extended milder winter trips while "cowboy camping" on the Colorado Plateau so wanted to minimize potential of loft deterioration over extended durations. I do sometimes go on trips for up to a few wks without accessing a resupply or going into a town as TW does. I also wanted to use it in hang set ups and mild alpining sleeping on ledges and ridges or in winter where exposure under all these set ups could be high.


    The hydrophobic or not debate is not a topic to discuss here in detail as it'll likely lead to further thread drift than my down drift. In short treated down may provide some marginal performance increases. It is marketed fairly if we dont read too much into it.

  19. #39

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    Maybe not to be discussed in detail, but treated down is a selling point for some, and a point in favor of quilts in a "quilt vs. bag" discussion, IMO. Most bags either have it or not, and I don't know if any of them use Allied Hyperdry. The premium bag makers do not yet offer it(kinda like they were years behind on entering the quilt market), but with made to order quilts it's usually an option. So if you do want it, you can get it.

    Both my quilts use 850 Hyperdry goose down, as that was the option at the time vs regular 900 fill. It's not that often that I get to see where the treated down makes a notable difference(and sometimes what difference there is may well be due to the shell material), but the few times I have were when it really mattered, so I'm pretty sold on it. Options are good...

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    Interestingly, though I read in this forum regularly about how mummy bags and CCF pads, and narrow pads are all anthemic to side-sleepers and stomach-sleepers, I have never had any issues whatsoever. I mostly sleep on my side, sometimes on my stomach, always in a mummy bag with a narrow CCF pad.

    I really don't get any of the side-sleeper hype. I'm not any wider on my stomach than I am on my back. Magically, I'm exactly the same girth on my side as well. I fit in my sleeping bag the same no matter what orientation I'm lying in, and I fit on my pad better on my side (I suppose some people are wider from front-to-back than they are side-to-side, but it would take a fairly good size belly to make up the width of my shoulders and arms.)
    Last edited by Zalman; 03-06-2019 at 14:18.

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