To get rid of the cats?Originally Posted by TwoSpirits
But that's what the snakes are for
Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.
I've become more mindful of not eating and cooking in any of the AT GSMNP shelters...even when it's raining or snowing. It causes problems that have been stated here.
I never eat where I sleep . That's why I carry a tent and shy away from others habits that clash with mine . There's good people staying at shelters of course but trying to correct their habits just doesn't get it . Besides the mice , squirrels , racoons and bears
are already tuned into the free meals at shelter areas .
To repeat what has already been said... the OP is talking about GSMNP where there is no other legal place to camp along the AT except at the shelters... and tent camping near the shelters is illegal.
Of course there is an exception for those hiking on an AT thru permit when shelters are full, but the OPs post seems to imply he will not be hiking on a Thru permit. And while we're at it, tarp and hammock campers fall under the same rules as tent camping in GSMNP.
It's kinda silly for any of us to think that we can avoid food-seeking animals by eating and sleeping in different places. Let's say I decide to stop at this cool little spot for supper and then hike another mile or two to the shelter to sleep. Or maybe I'm going to stop by the shelter to fix supper and then hike on to a camping spot beyond. What about all the other hikers out there? Did one of them eat supper in my camping spot? Will one of them set up camp where I just had my supper?
Let's face it. EVERY comfy looking log or boulder on or near the trail has served as a place to sit and eat. EVERY flat clear bit of ground on or near the trail has been camped on. Possibly that same day. Maybe an hour ago. Animals associate the trail with humans and food. Doesn't matter if I set up my tent beside the trail in an inhospitable patch of briers or on a pile of boulders. Mr Skunk, Mr Bear, and Ms Mouse won't pass me by because they've never found food crumbs in that spot before. If they pass me by, it's because they fear me.
It’s alright, I’ve got a bear canister.
804CB12E-E969-4986-9FB4-3EC5692CAF42.jpeg
Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.
The shelter(s) will be covered in both people and meals of the past. People treat the shelters like a kitchen and I am sure the wildlife especially in GSMNP due to shelter restraints are so used to those areas (shelter sites) being saturated with food smells that it is probably a navigational scent mark for them. Even if folks do not cook directly in the shelter, the ol worn down picanic tables directly outside from the shelter are used everyday to boil ramen and mountain house meals. the scent is there. Tenting is wonderful.
I don't think there is as much if any emphasis on the AT of eat before you get to camp like there is in Grizzly country.
Trail Miles: 4,980.5
AT Map 1: Complete 2013-2021
Sheltowee Trace: Complete 2020-2023
Pinhoti Trail: Complete 2023-2024
Foothills Trail: 47.9
AT Map 2: 279.4
BMT: 52.7
CDT: 85.4
I used to reason the same. My diverse observed experiences and correction by those who have vast more understanding have led me to recognize otherwise. When I did it I was trying to excuse my impact. We cook, eat and sleep in the same location within 5 ft of all these tasks out of human centric comfort and convenience... out of habit.There's nothing stating I know of in GSMNP policies that state we have to always cook and eat at or in AT shelters when hiking the AT or where we sleep elsewhere in GSMNP. Am I wrong...again?
We can decrease the magnitude of and possibly avoid negative wildlife/human encounters as wildlife is re-habituated if we incorporated to a greater extent not eating where we immediately sleep and greater mindfulness of food protection.
Too often in various cultures we associate food with rest or sleep. We so often unwarily take to the trail our at home habits - eating while watching TV(I can still do this) or on the computer(me) or in bed or bringing food into the BR or while lying on the couch. I often eat while standing or while continuing to work or while moving. At work I stand while doing CAD rather than sitting. I've replaced a sit down chair with a ergonomic high rise adjustable stool. Here are some culture's habit(Indians, Chinese, some Italians, etc: work(for backpackers that means hiking), eat, take a walk after eating. This habit can offer many benefits than being lethargic or stationary immediately after eating.
Why do many U.S citizens fall into such a stupor after eating? We eat too large a meal before resting or requires resting and we eat many of the wrong foods meaning food at the wrong times like right before "bed"... products of a culture utterly absorbed in consumption and sugar. We also tend to make dinner the largest meal of the day and fall into a B'fast, lunch, and dinner habit which we can also bring to the trail. It's been advised by several savvy experienced hikers here on WB to break away from the 3 squares mindset on trail. IMHO, it's great trail advise that also can have health benefits in off trail life.
Gnoshing smaller amts(snacks) continually during the day, eating less sugar, making early in the day and early afternoon the largest caloric intake but still metering it out to not severely spike blood sugar and preemptively avoid severe energy roller coasting, avoiding junk food addictions, perhaps eating all day smaller amts(half handfuls at time) while often on the move, being mindful of off trail habits impacting on trail habits, etc can change on trail diary habits leading to not requiring such a huge heavy "dinner" meal. When getting to where we sleep we're not so depleted and famished. The day's agenda can be: get up and hike, gnosh maybe a bit, eat a bit later, eat continually but smaller amts, hike while gnoshing, hike, while gnoshing, gnosh stopped at teh overlook, hike, hike while gnoshing, eat, brush teeth and clean up lightly to keep smells in one spot, a few more miles, than sleep - New trail habits that can impact off trail at home dietary habits combining both lifestyles to compliment each and having positive affects not only on ourselves but possibly others aware of a larger whole. Maybe, fewer negative wildlife encounters as a benefit.
We dont need to sleep where we eat all the time. We don't need to associate food with rest and slumber and being necessarily prone or even sitting out of habit.
Rant over.
Here were some ancillary benefits of not always sleeping where I eat: 1) I learned that I didn't need to camp near water. Dry camping skills were developed and incorporated into the skill set. This provided significant benefits on AZT, HDT, GET, LHR, GC NP, DV NP, JT NP, and PCT hikes to name a few. It also meant my AT backpacking no longer needed to center around AT shelter CS's or water. 2) I no longer experienced teh magnitude of negative wildlife issues unnaturally habituated to human food 3) It meant greater awareness of more mindful water logistics 3) I better learned how to read maps 4) It developed water finding ability and capturing it in a wider range of environments 5) I developed and adhered more to the intent of LNT ethics meaning for me I was being more mindful of otjhres, not hiking with a self absorbed mindset
All this snowballs and is interconnected having impacts on so many aspects. These are just some of the consequences from not always needing to or being in the habit of eating where I sleep.
Not sure you understood my post. Or maybe I was unclear.
It doesn't do any good for me to keep my sleeping place pristine by eating elsewhere if you or some other hiker used that spot to eat before I got there. The food smells and crumbs you may have left behind will attract wildlife to my "pristine" camping spot.
(Not talking about GSMNP, by the way, since rules require use of shelters for sleeping.)
This is right in so many ways. Bears are predators and WE are the prey if they are so inclined to eat us. Remember, we are walking cheese sticks to a bear. And what happens when we cook up a pound of food and place it inside our stomachs? Won't a hungry bear want that bag of food which is now inside the tent??? (Inside us). Or heck just eat us from our tents??
Just being out in the woods opens a human up to bear predation. Bears put the "wild" in what's left of wilderness.
Fortunately, most bears in the South East do not consider people "AS" food. Yes, there have been a few predatory attacks, but those have been rare.
GSMNP also tries to prevent bears from learning people are a source of food by including bear cables at every campsite. If everyone followed the rules for food storage and protection, there would be few problems with people/bear interactions in GSMNP. But again, because in every relatively crowded location, there's always that one that one person that either doesn't take the time to learn the rules, or thinks the rules do not apply to them. As a result, every summer, campsites in GSMNP get closed (usually about a month at a time) as the park service tries to prevent bears from learning people are a source of food.
I would hazard a guess that most hikers who shelter in the GSMNP are not thru hikers. I would further guess that most are inexperienced or infrequent backpackers. These types tend to hike shorter distances and arrive at the shelter early in the day. Therefor they will end up cooking and eating at the shelter. I have also run into day hikers who use the shelters for lunch stops. I think it would be a monumental task to change this kind of behavior.
More walking, less talking.
I would hazard a guess that most hikers who shelter in the GSMNP are not thru hikers.
except in the bubble, where there might be 10-12 non thru hikers and 40 thru hikers either in the shelter or camping around it or using it as a place to cook/hang out....
True, but over the course of a year most shelter users are not thru hikers.
More walking, less talking.
Try looking under rocks in well used camp areas
Youll frequently find everything from food trash to last night's dinner
Water virtually never plays a role in where I camp. If I'm less than 5 miles from a reliable water source it's not even a consideration. Well I like to fill up on water first thing in the morning before I start hiking that's just so I don't have to stop later. But I can cover that first 5 miles and always do with even taking a sip.
It's actually the technique I use for long dry stretches most of the time. I've covered 25 miles on one liter of water. Hike 15 on one liter, get up the next morning and hike 10 with none while it was still cool.
Last edited by MuddyWaters; 03-04-2019 at 22:41.
I understood your post. You were clear.
Let me be clear. I respectfully disagree.
It's not just about you but what you do certainly can and does impact yourself.
Again, my thinking was precisely as yours...at one time...to excuse the impacts of my own actions...to kick the can down the road. It puts other's behavior on trial while ignoring our own. I excused what I was doing, continuing to eat and cook where others and myself slept sometimes leaving crumbs and food smells behind in highly human impacted areas. I did it initially because that's what others were observed doing or I knew others had done(sound familiar?). It's also what I was once habituated to do at home. It impacted not only myself and others at the time but impacted those who came after me. They did it so I'll do it; this way I don't have to change; I don't need introspection...was my mentality. I could continue adding to how and why it became a highly impacted area. Follow the herd. Be a sheeple. It continued a behavior that is problematic for not only myself, but other humans, and wildlife. It may even impact flora, water quality, and other aspects.
Consider changing your sentence to not one in which you are being impacted by others - victimized - and consider how your behavior impacts on others as the perpetrator/victimizer...a situation we don't like to often see ourselves. Maybe, because it entails being uncomfortably personally accountable?That's what LNT principles is intended... to be mindful of more than ourselves. None of us are islands. We are not alienated, backpacking in a bubble, only responsible to self, responsible only for what happens to us as individuals or our cadre but not responsible for the impacts we have on others.
It also matters what we each do because just as I learned in observing others eating in the immediate vicinity of where I and others slept, causing problems, ignoring them out of some ignorance, often until I personally experienced them myself(sound familiar?), when others see us doing something different it provides an example for others to learn. It provides opportunities to lead by example, be an innovator, act like an ambassador rather than with a herd mentality..to initiate new behaviors, new paradigms.
Several of us doing PCT LASHes and thrus started realizing this in 08. What we started doing was eating where we or others didn't sleep but still socializing in groups of about 8-12 with each of us of different backgrounds, religions, non religious, ethnicities, ages, genders, socio-economic persuasions, races, of U.S. and foreign descent, etc. We would find places to enjoy a sunset or the late afternoon together. When we did sleep we had already eaten. We tended to hike later and learned to night hike more competently. We had less negative impact on wildlife and others. We learned better water logistics in the process. We learned and incorporated different approaches widening our adaptability than opting for the same cookie cutter imposing approaches again and again no matter what trail, region, agenda, or season. We expanded comfort zones in the process. We became more conscience of our impacts beyond just ourselves too. We learned to impose ourselves less on others and the trail. It was able for all of us because we are open. I will never forget those "trail" lessons that stay with me today after 10 yrs. They paralleled nicely into being applied to off trail life.
It makes me laugh when a thru hiker stops to make dinner at a shelter, enjoying sitting on a bench and socializing. Then they move on to sleep elsewhere. So...you don’t eat and sleep in the same place but you eat where others sleep? What moralizing pricks.
True, but over the course of a year most shelter users are not thru hikers.
i would tend to think----when the numbers are really broken down-----that over the course of the year, thru hikers make up the majority of shelter users (or camping nearby)....
figure from march to beginning of June----there's always NOBOthru hikers coming through the Park........and then SOBO users, which are not as many as the NOBO, but still count them in...
For non thruhikers----the shelters hold 10-13 or so................
and figure there could (potentially) be 20-50 thruhikers a night for many nights during the thru hiker season.........
But again, keep the context of the OP in mind... we're talking about GSMNP where there's only about a dozen places you can camp in about a 75 mile stretch. It doesn't matter where you stop to eat, you're going to be sleeping where others before you have been eating.It makes me laugh when a thru hiker stops to make dinner at a shelter, enjoying sitting on a bench and socializing. Then they move on to sleep elsewhere. So...you don’t eat and sleep in the same place but you eat where others sleep? What moralizing pricks.
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