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  1. #21
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    the OP is in an area thats often inundated with day hikers (ie people who don't need permits) so why bother and on what basis did he/she ask for the OP's permit?



    clingmans dome road is closed for the season......

    so one would stick out like a sore thumb up there right now...

    and most ridgerunners can tell the difference between someone backpacking and dayhiking.....


    and more importantly, if OP did have permit----all this could have been avoided if they just showed it to ridgerunner...

  2. #22
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    so even though the permit system is park wide there is a special group of permit checking people who only do so on the AT and not elsewhere in the park? and these people have special access to the park's permit system (would that be for the whole park or just the AT?)



    it's ridgerunners checking permits on the AT-----which is the most traveled trail for backpackers in the Park.....

    there's no other trail that gets that amount of backpacker traffic.....


    and the ridgerunners can check anyone's permit that is hiking the AT even if they are going to campsites not located on the AT........

    they can use their park issued radio and call in to dispatch and check permit.....

  3. #23
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    One of the OP's complaints was that there was "significant" snow/rain/wind. The permit is just something you print out on your computer. It's not a tag you hang on your pack. It's not durable at all. If it got hauled out during the rain, it would not survive long, possibly becoming unreadable. No one wants to dig through their pack in poor weather - not me, not any of you. Whether or not the ridgerunner was authorized to ask questions, pulling out the permit in the rain is still an irritation.

    It's possible to defend the ridgerunner and discourage rule-breakers without piling onto someone who just asked a question. Seems like a few of us just want to get our punch in. There's a lot of information missing about the situation, and the OP hasn't been back to fill in the details. Taking sides, passing judgment, condemnation - it all seems a bit premature.

    Just my opinion.
    Last edited by illabelle; 03-10-2019 at 06:10.

  4. #24
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    without piling onto someone who just asked a question...........Taking sides, passing judgment, condemnation



    but, OP didn't ask a question-------came right out with a statement putting a ridgerunner done for doing their job.....

    i think the entitled attitude of "hey, im better than a ridgerunner, and even if it's snowing, i'm going to not show my permit or give my real name" that prompted some of the responses.....

    after all----a permit can be put in a ziplock bag, and in an easy place in the pack, and pulled out........and as i stated earlier----trail names are not reality.......reservations and permits have to be done under real names..............

    but, based on another thread OP started----sounds like they have issues with ridgerunners all together.....

  5. #25
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    [QUOTE=MuddyWaters;2240179]
    Quote Originally Posted by tdoczi View Post
    Ridgerunners in gsmnp are still ATC employees. But they also carry radios and can call LE rangers if needed. if someone doesn't have the permit typically I understand they can issue you one. You pay for it after you leave the park. You have 72 hours. For them to behave otherwise is interesting........
    And (in addition to the Permit MW showed earlier) The Compendium says - In all cases a permit or letter of authorization must be in the permit’ee'spossession at all times and exhibited to any authorized person upon request. File: Compendium\Compendium2014.doc; December 2014
    Given that a RR can issue a permit it seems rather intuitive that GSMNP has enabled them to ask to see a permit.
    "Too often I would hear men boast of the miles covered that day, rarely of what they had seen." Louis L’Amour

  6. #26
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    In the park the ridgrunners are not police officers, no badge, no gun. They do have a uniform and ID indicating they work in the park and do have authority to ask to see your permit. (You should read that permit). They can't detain or arrest you unless you are in the act of a felony. They have a radio and will call a ranger who has a badge. Nobody has the right to be snotty, rude or un professional. You or the ridge runner.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkeeterPee View Post
    Here is information about applying or the position. http://pnts.org/new/wp-content/uploa...ement-2019.pdf Nothing mentions checking permits. It sounds like they are there to educate. A search of the NPS site has no mention of them so I suspect they have the same authority as anyone else on the trail that they can report problems to Park Rangers. They may ask for your permit, but can anyone find anything that says that you have to show it to someone who is not a NPS employee?
    What you may not be able to find on the GSMNP web site is the NPS requirement for NPS volunteers to sign a Government Optional Form 301A - Volunteer Service Agreement. In this form the individual Park can detail the specifics of the functions an individual is performing. As an example, even though PATC has been building and maintaining Trail in Shenandoah National Park since before it was a National Park, I as a trail maintainer, as of Sep 2018 am required to sign the OF301A before being allowed to volunteer my time to maintaining the trails in SNP. So, I would not be surprised that GSMNP does the same for RR and spells out on that form what their duties are. As you are required to provide personal information on this form, the signed forms are not made public.
    "Too often I would hear men boast of the miles covered that day, rarely of what they had seen." Louis L’Amour

  8. #28
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    [QUOTE=MuddyWaters;2240186]
    Quote Originally Posted by tdoczi View Post

    well, since ridgerunner is only on the AT they have no reason to check or issue permits for anywhere else in the park. To issue a permit, I'm guessing all they do is radio the backcountry office and get them to do it. whether or not they have a paper permit to give you at that point I have no idea.

    However Park rangers, can also be on the AT and can check permit and issue permits , or assist in changing permits, as well as in the rest of the park too.
    the person i met in the park, who i'm assuming was a ridgerunner, had an ipad hooked into the park's permit issuing system.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNhiker View Post
    clingmans dome road is closed for the season......

    so one would stick out like a sore thumb up there right now...

    and most ridgerunners can tell the difference between someone backpacking and dayhiking.....


    and more importantly, if OP did have permit----all this could have been avoided if they just showed it to ridgerunner...
    with all that being the case one could also then wonder why a ridgerunner was even out

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by illabelle View Post
    One of the OP's complaints was that there was "significant" snow/rain/wind. The permit is just something you print out on your computer. It's not a tag you hang on your pack. It's not durable at all. If it got hauled out during the rain, it would not survive long, possibly becoming unreadable. No one wants to dig through their pack in poor weather - not me, not any of you. Whether or not the ridgerunner was authorized to ask questions, pulling out the permit in the rain is still an irritation.
    All true. Because of the non-durability issue, I keep mine in a zip bag in my pocket. It is protected, and easily accessible and legible.
    "Too often I would hear men boast of the miles covered that day, rarely of what they had seen." Louis L’Amour

  11. #31

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    I haven’t been in the Smokys in a while. The parks I frequent (Yellowstone and Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore) have permits that are either printed on a Tyvek type paper, or they give you a little plastic bag. You’re always supposed to have them either attached to the outside of your pack, or to your tent. I’ve gotten (gently) chewed out a few times because I usually keep mine in my pocket. While hiking in the Tetons, I had the permit attached to my pack and a wind left me with nothing but the twisty. The ranger looked at me and said, “So I have to cite you for littering, too?” Then he told me I looked honest and that he figured I did have a permit. The rangers/ridge runners are often mirrors to what you bring to the conversation.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdoczi View Post
    with all that being the case one could also then wonder why a ridgerunner was even out



    because thru hiker season has started....

    and thrus are coming through the park already......

    that was also the case when i stayed at mt collins shelter a few years ago at beginning of march----road closed, ridgerunner stayed with us at shelter, and shelter was full of hikers.......

  13. #33
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    maybe it had something to do with the idea of concern of someone out hiking in rather dangerous conditions...significant snow/rain/wind......

    I can picture a person....a Barney Fife complex type perhaps...that sees a hiker that might be a novice not knowing the danger that they are in fact in....maybe prompting a shakedown as part of the educate function of their job.

    Just speculating here...for campfire discussion brainstorming purposes.....

  14. #34
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    When I did my thru hike there was a ridge runner at the Mollies Ridge shelter checking permits. He was also taking a count of thru hikers. He was courteous and professional. Many years ago my brother and I were heading SOBO and the Smokys did not have a provision for thru hikers. We had to get a permit at Fontana Village and the ranger told us where we would be staying. When we got to Ice Water Springs a ranger came thru and checked permits. There were 5 people with invalid permits. He told 2 to move along to their proper destination for the night. After the ranger left they started talking tough and were cussing out the ranger. They didn't move on and later that night when the 5 people who had reservations arrived these tough guys never said a peep. Even though ridge runners don't carry a gun and a badge they should be treated with respect. I would guess most are not doing this job for the money but for the love of the trail.
    More walking, less talking.

  15. #35
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    If you keep your permit in a ziplock and readily accessible, I really don't see the issue (just show it and be on your way. No need for an exercise in rights, leave that crap at home or on Youtube), except the unprofessional part. But being that, just relying on the original post and one one other about RR's on here from the OP, I can only say it's safe to assume the attitude given is what was most likely received at the start.
    - Trail name: Thumper

  16. #36

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    At Mt Rainier, permits are issued in a zip lock bag with a twist tie to attach to the pack. It rains there, hard and often, yet the permits survive and are checked with a quick glance. I strongly suspect the OP is the one with an attitude problem.
    "It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how." ---Dr. Seuss

  17. #37

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    I see no evidence presented that the RR was rude or condescending or overstepped their bounds. It's subjective speculation to assume the RR behaved inappropriately. Even if it is accurate the RR was so what. Do yourself and others a BIG favor! Learn to move on instead of being offended...instead of wasting energy and carrying around unnecessary emotional baggage influencing others to also share in being offended. http://meanttobehappy.com/10-ways-yo...sily-offended/

    What I see is someone wanting their emotions(feelings) validated. What makes me immediately suspicious of a clouded judgmental account is when one ignores the details surrounding their own actions only pointing to possible and unproven allegations of the other party. Rampant today is demanding and expecting subjective feelings validated. The facts can be ignored to cater to subjective feelings(emotions). And, some are so offended they will leverage anything to achieve feeling emotionally validated. Some of the reasons why this is done are listed in the provided link. Emotional feelings may not represent reality!

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pringles View Post
    Then he told me I looked honest and that he figured I did have a permit. The rangers/ridge runners are often mirrors to what you bring to the conversation.
    How true.

    What you're doing is bringing into consideration the impacts of our own behaviors. We are not backpacking in alienated bubbles experiencing encounters as if they all fell out of the sky.

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by soilman View Post
    When I did my thru hike there was a ridge runner at the Mollies Ridge shelter checking permits. He was also taking a count of thru hikers. He was courteous and professional. Many years ago my brother and I were heading SOBO and the Smokys did not have a provision for thru hikers. We had to get a permit at Fontana Village and the ranger told us where we would be staying. When we got to Ice Water Springs a ranger came thru and checked permits. There were 5 people with invalid permits. He told 2 to move along to their proper destination for the night. After the ranger left they started talking tough and were cussing out the ranger. They didn't move on and later that night when the 5 people who had reservations arrived these tough guys never said a peep. Even though ridge runners don't carry a gun and a badge they should be treated with respect. I would guess most are not doing this job for the money but for the love of the trail.
    This has happened to others and myself in GSMNP on the AT three separate times I know of. It's self absorbed the rules don't apply to me I'll impose on others I'm responsible only to self behavior. I've learned when obtaining my GSMNP permits to ascertain the expected occupancy. I overwhelming tend to obtain walk up permits at the last moment. If others and myself get at the shelter and it's highly over occupied we'll take ask everyone why. We'll take it on ourselves having valid paid permits to display them and ask for everyone else to do likewise if need be. Whether I'm alone or with others we'll confront this behavior. Often, its' someone, the quiet or defensive ones, illegally staying there imposing on others who have the legal paid right to stay there ahead of them. It's often someone with a defensive BS slick talking story excusing their illegal BS self serving behavior. I'll confront this shart personally. And, if that doesn't make the offenders come clean I'll inform Rangers who these people are as IMO it's our responsibility to all in the backpacking community to be held accountable. I'll go out of my way to do this as you've gone out of your way to be a d#@k is my mindset. This applies to me! With others in the shelter or CS area also having valid permits we've collectively thrown the slick talking BS the rules don't apply to me offenders out of the shelter or area. If we will not individually manage ourselves to some standard to which we've agreed than others will do it for you.

    I've seen this slick talking entitled self absorbed behavior that crosses the line into illegal behavior increasing on trails.

  20. #40
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    I met a ridge runner in the smokies on the AT last year.. she was really cool and I like the way she asked about me and a friends permits.

    She didnt ask for my name or to see my permit...


    She said did you have any trouble getting a permit? No.

    Where did you get it? Top of Georgia Hostel.

    Perfect.. non intrusive, kind, easy going. She knew I had one without even asking to see it.

    If i responded with .. online... she probably would have asked to see it.






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