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  1. #41
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    With an OP having only 4 posts... It sure sounds like you've been TROLLED!!!

    Either that or perhaps this guy didn't have a permit... After all, if anyone with any authority asks to see your permit, the proper response for someone hiking legal would be to show the permit, not complain if the person technically has authority over permits or not... And the fact he is complaining about having to give his legal name doesn't lend much credibility to the notion he was hiking legal.

  2. #42

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    I just want to send a little love to any past, current & future Ridge Runners who might feel maligned or underappreciated by this thread. I think Ridge Runners rock! They're like a walking talking information booth, and you don't have to wait in line. Ridge Runners have told me about lesser known water sources, trail conditions, where to find better re-supplies, the time & place to catch the best sunrise (one even hiked down to my campsite to make sure I didn't miss it), current bear activity, etc. If I hit the panic button on my GPS there's a good chance a Ridge Runner will reach me before search & rescue does. They pack out trash, clean up fire pits, clean the Privy's (OMG!), report or just fix trail maintenance problems and make the AT a nicer place for all of us. I think they really are the good guys.

  3. #43

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    LucyInColor is quite colorful, very bright. That's a high quality post!

  4. #44
    GSMNP 900 Miler
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    LucyInColor, I totally agree. I am also very grateful that ridge runners are in GSMNP.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    The ridgerunners are hired representatives of the ATC. Who report to....NPS.

    If they request to see a permit where one is required for the AT, it is because they must have authority to do so.

    ....
    From a former smokes RR they have no authority at all - their function is educational, maintenance, reporting.

    The RR can request the permit, to the degree that anyone can request to see your permit, the hiker can refuse, RR can call/radio for a LEO if they feel it is needed - refusal to show is normally not something to be radioed in except for info purposes and if a LEO is nearby they may visit and officially request. The RR is a employee of ATC, not the NPS. At least in the Smokies.

    I had some initially refuse but IIRC everyone showed after explaining why I wanted to see them, which was for shelter space, making sure that everyone had a space and no one was taking a spot of a permitted sleeper, as the shelters were almost always full. Also I could help them if they were 'off sequence' by redoing their permit in the field. I could also issue a field permit if they didn't have one.

    Sometimes I would explain it to them that sleeping in a shelter is like staying at a hotel, you need a reservation. I am the front desk and while they don't have to show me their permit, I have to take it as a illegal guest and report it to the authorities.

  6. #46
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    If you feel you were treated poorly by a RR you should report that incident to the ATC. Perhaps others have as well and it could be a pattern with that person. I'm sure by far most are doing a thankless job as best they can for the love of the trail. There are always outliers, of course. I recall a couple of years ago a RR really being rude at Gooch Gap. Several people had commented about it and it seemed obvious this guy was being very pushy and rude. I believe he was reported as well. Perhaps it was a misunderstanding and some re-education was in order. Perhaps he's a better RR today because of it. Worse case, he wasn't cut out for the job and has been relieved. There's nothing wrong with relaying to the ATC that you had a bad experience. It could be a one-off or it could be they need to speak to the person about being a better ambassador.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchild View Post
    The RR can request the permit, to the degree that anyone can request to see your permit, the hiker can refuse, RR can call/radio for a LEO if they feel it is needed - refusal to show is normally not something to be radioed in except for info purposes and if a LEO is nearby they may visit and officially request. The RR is a employee of ATC, not the NPS. At least in the Smokies.
    I'd say as an ATC representative, a ridgerunner does have the authority to request to see a permit. Further every interview I've seen with Smokies ridge runners they have all said that they request to see permits. Now you may not have any authority to do anything about it if they don't comply , but you can radio a LE ranger and so that alone is some enforcement ability.

    And while ridge runners are not employed directly by the NPS, the ATC is. The NPS grants the right to oversee the AT to the ATC, and ATC is accountable to them for management of it. The ATC also receive significant federal funding for it, something like 25% of their total expenses I think. So while you may not be directly employed by your bosses boss..... You do work for them . Like it or not. It's their national scenic trail, and something like 45% of it is directly on federal land. The NPS used federal funds to aquire the lions share of the protected corridor as well. The 250,000 acres of AT protected lands is a significant land holding in NPS system
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 03-14-2019 at 22:50.

  8. #48
    Registered User middle to middle's Avatar
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    They suck, I always stealth !

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by middle to middle View Post
    They suck, I always stealth !
    The OP discussed encountering a RR in GSMNP, and many of the comments have specifically been about RRs in GSMNP (especially since much of this discussion has been in regard to requesting permits, and GSMNP is one of the few locations along the AT permits are required).

    In that context, you are promoting an illegal activity.
    In GSMNP, you are legally required to camp in the designated camping locations. Given the limited camping locations and the popularity of GSMNP, pretty much any definition of "stealth" camping would be illegal.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    I'd say as an ATC representative, a ridgerunner does have the authority to request to see a permit. Further every interview I've seen with Smokies ridge runners they have all said that they request to see permits. Now you may not have any authority to do anything about it if they don't comply , but you can radio a LE ranger and so that alone is some enforcement ability.

    And while ridge runners are not employed directly by the NPS, the ATC is. The NPS grants the right to oversee the AT to the ATC, and ATC is accountable to them for management of it. The ATC also receive significant federal funding for it, something like 25% of their total expenses I think. So while you may not be directly employed by your bosses boss..... You do work for them . Like it or not. It's their national scenic trail, and something like 45% of it is directly on federal land. The NPS used federal funds to aquire the lions share of the protected corridor as well. The 250,000 acres of AT protected lands is a significant land holding in NPS system
    Perhaps just semantics, but it's our National Scenic Trail. But otherwise, yeah, because collectively We The People do cede management of it to various agencies. It's also an interesting example of a pretty successfully coordinated management of a publicly owned resource by multiple non-government organizations, largely coordinated by ATC. AMC, PATC, MATC, et al, State and local Parks, land acquired by conservation organizations, etc. all work together for our trail. Anyway, off to work, where I'll probably face some encroachment on my liberties by someone with a little authority. I'll probably just show them my papers if asked.

  11. #51

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    Much ado about nothing. Just show the damn permit. What is the big deal?

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by middle to middle View Post
    They suck, I always stealth !
    what prompts a 78 year old person who has been a member of this site for 14 years but has barely posted to decide one day in march at nearly midnight to log in and interject such a useful addition to the conversation? gotta be a good story there.

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdoczi View Post
    what prompts a 78 year old person who has been a member of this site for 14 years but has barely posted to decide one day in march at nearly midnight to log in and interject such a useful addition to the conversation? gotta be a good story there.
    I kind of was thinking the same, but out of respect to this gentleman's mature age, I decided not to respond.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephanD View Post
    I kind of was thinking the same, but out of respect to this gentleman's mature age, I decided not to respond.
    my best shot at an explanation is that it was posted by someone else who found his/her account logged in, was bored and felt like spicying it up by saying something moronic. like a 16 year old grandson or something.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    I'd say as an ATC representative, a ridgerunner does have the authority to request to see a permit. Further every interview I've seen with Smokies ridge runners they have all said that they request to see permits. Now you may not have any authority to do anything about it if they don't comply , but you can radio a LE ranger and so that alone is some enforcement ability.
    As I read this you basically restated what you quoted of me, RR can request, hiker can refuse - end of the 'power'. Now yes the RR can call a ranger, however so can anyone. RR is not enforcement, and can not enforce. Now a ranger may take a RR's request more seriously due to the professional relationship. Which gets to your second paragraph.

    And while ridge runners are not employed directly by the NPS, the ATC is. The NPS grants the right to oversee the AT to the ATC, and ATC is accountable to them for management of it. The ATC also receive significant federal funding for it, something like 25% of their total expenses I think. So while you may not be directly employed by your bosses boss..... You do work for them . Like it or not. It's their national scenic trail, and something like 45% of it is directly on federal land. The NPS used federal funds to acquire the lions share of the protected corridor as well. The 250,000 acres of AT protected lands is a significant land holding in NPS system
    The amount of interagency and club interaction and cooperation of the ridge runner and all related parties is staggering to be involved in. And they can and do influence RR activities, but ultimately, in the ideal, it falls directly to ATC and it's mission in regards to the AT. In practice the ATC does allow a lot of other agencies to get it's say, and influence policy (and routing), and some of that influence comes from continuing donations to ATC from clubs . IIRC the Smoky Mountain Club actually donated the RR salaries (in whole or in part), and in that 'buys' a lot of say. However this does not lead in any way to enforcement ability on behalf of the RR, it is education, maintenance and reporting that is the job of the RR.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephanD View Post
    Much ado about nothing. Just show the damn permit. What is the big deal?
    If you don't have a permit to show... that's when it's a big deal.
    I all but directly accused the OP of not having a permit... but they haven't been back to add to the conversation.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
    If you don't have a permit to show... that's when it's a big deal.
    I all but directly accused the OP of not having a permit... but they haven't been back to add to the conversation.
    But this is where the RR can help, they can issue field permits on the spot (assuming radio reception in that spot) which could get them out of a ticket if the friendly ranger comes along.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
    If you don't have a permit to show... that's when it's a big deal.
    I all but directly accused the OP of not having a permit... but they haven't been back to add to the conversation.
    Yep.

    Not a big deal at all ....when u have one.

  19. #59
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    But this is where the RR can help, they can issue field permits on the spot (assuming radio reception in that spot) which could get them out of a ticket if the friendly ranger comes along.



    i say they should have the permit before entering the Park...

    it should be part of the planning process....

    and there's enough resources nowadaze to research this info...

    this aint the 1980's anymore.....

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchild View Post
    ...The amount of interagency and club interaction and cooperation of the ridge runner and all related parties is staggering to be involved in ...
    http://www.appalachiantrail.org/home...l-partnerships

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