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  1. #1
    Registered User sloetoe's Avatar
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    Default Ticks + mild winters = Moose In Trouble

    https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...-moose/583189/

    A great article on where global warming meets some of our wildlife icons -- "right where they live."

    “And if you’ve seen one of these calves on the verge of death ...” We were back at the truck now. He thought a minute and then pulled out his phone. “Probably shouldn’t do this. But here’s one I came across last spring.” The video shows a pathetically emaciated calf, probably only 20 feet away from Debow as he filmed it with his phone—far closer than a healthy calf would allow—trying to move away among some young trees. Except the calf can barely move. The slope is gentle and the snow only a couple of inches deep. Yet the calf, his legs a-wobble and his head moving uncertainly, looks ready to fall at any second. Repeatedly he tries to lift a foreleg and stride forward, but cannot. He seems to sense that if he falls, he will not rise. After several seconds, he finally succeeds. One step. Debow followed him until dark, he said, before he had to head home. The next morning he found the calf dead, just a few yards from where he had last seen him.

    When I did the AT in '79, it was a big deal to have seen a moose. I saw three -- each time with no film in my camera.

    In '00-'05, hiking the LT, AT, and Cohos with my twin sons, we saw moose poop everywhere (and bear, too), but with those boys yammering everywhere we went, we still managed to see 3-4 per (3-week) trip while on trail. (And when in transport by automobile, double of that.)

    Now, it's already a decade-and-a-half later, ....... yowser.

    Back in 1979, the "big deal" was the recovery of the coyote in northern Maine. Now, coyote can be found in NYC, fergawdsakes. Bear? In '79, I was as shocked to see the large sow in front of me, in that little NJ swampy loop that is the closest the AT gets to NYC, as the bear was to see me. Now? "Problem bears" are a phenomenon in a linked chain up the AT from Georgia on. WOW! "Bear Protocol" is now an AT thing, not just a CDT or PCT thing.

    "Recovery" is nice, to be sure. But here comes a different effect: climate change.

    Do yourself a favor and take note of what's around you -- where populations are at, water sources, encroaching development and such -- so that you can appreciate the good things that have *not* changed, far into your future, and so that you can sound an alarm of changes not-so-good.

    (Of course, we've all gotta get our arses out the door, first. February 22..... Is there *anyplace* on the AT that's not warm, wet, and icky right now? Ugh.)

  2. #2
    Registered User meat803's Avatar
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    Man made global warming is a unproven fairytale. So many false claims and predictions that haven't panned out. Contradictory information is abundant but ignored. LA just had it's coldest Feb in 60 years. In it's current state it is a scam. More research and less emotion is needed.
    2014 Foothills, 2015 AT GA-ME, 2016 LT SOBO, 2017 Art Loeb, 2017 Cranberry 50, 2017 PCT SOBO
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  3. #3

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    <bang!> .... and they're off!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by meat803 View Post
    Man made global warming is a unproven fairytale. So many false claims and predictions that haven't panned out. Contradictory information is abundant but ignored. LA just had it's coldest Feb in 60 years. In it's current state it is a scam. More research and less emotion is needed.
    OK, Traveler. I'll bite.

    LA has a month of cold weather so climate change is a hoax? The depth of such ignorance is simply exasperating. The article Sloetoe posted listed two causes of the ticks plaguing Vermont's moose population: climate change and population density. The causes of climate change were not mentioned. Sloetoe did not mention "man made" climate change. But Sloppy Seconds wishes to make it an issue. It is, however, simply an exercise in frustration to attempt debating global warming with people who don't know the difference between weather and climate. Of greater concern is the number of people in the US who hold the same beliefs on climate change as Sloppy Seconds. Reason, science, education: out the window. Thanks to Sloetoe for pointing out that we all need to have a greater awareness of the changes occurring in the world around us, perhaps more so in the remote areas we hikers come into contact with.

  5. #5
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    It is already been said "Where Ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise".

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by meat803 View Post
    Man made global warming is a unproven fairytale. So many false claims and predictions that haven't panned out. Contradictory information is abundant but ignored. LA just had it's coldest Feb in 60 years. In it's current state it is a scam. More research and less emotion is needed.
    You are 41 years old so you should live long enough to see if the science behind climate change is correct. Report back in 20 years. You can crow about being right or eat crow if you are wrong.
    If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.

  7. #7

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    The climate may be warming, but carbon emissions caused by humans has little, if anything, to do with it. The earth’s climate runs in cycles and we are coming out of the little ice age, a recent cold period. Back in Roman times the earth was much warmer than it is today. Where were all the carbon emitters then?


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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince G View Post
    The climate may be warming, but carbon emissions caused by humans has little, if anything, to do with it. The earth’s climate runs in cycles and we are coming out of the little ice age, a recent cold period. Back in Roman times the earth was much warmer than it is today. Where were all the carbon emitters then?


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    Will someone turn off Fox News?

  9. #9
    Wanna-be hiker trash
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    Quote Originally Posted by meat803 View Post
    Man made global warming is a unproven fairytale. So many false claims and predictions that haven't panned out. Contradictory information is abundant but ignored. LA just had it's coldest Feb in 60 years. In it's current state it is a scam. More research and less emotion is needed.
    Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince G View Post
    The climate may be warming, but carbon emissions caused by humans has little, if anything, to do with it. The earth’s climate runs in cycles and we are coming out of the little ice age, a recent cold period. Back in Roman times the earth was much warmer than it is today. Where were all the carbon emitters then?
    Wrong, we should be in the early stages of next ice age. One of the main driving forces behind an ice age is the wobble of the earth's axis. The axis reached it minimum declination towards the sun some 5,000 years ago. Since then the axis has been moving towards it's maximum declination, which should be cooling off the earth. Instead it's warming.
    The main problem is the oceans are getting hot. Unlike land which can warm and cool quickly, oceans store the heat long term. This is a major factor is severity and frequency of the storms we have been having, to the tune of 350 Billion in damages last year alone. It will get worse.

    LA had a cold snap? Great. Meanwhile Australia is having it's hottest summer yet and unprecedented wildfires. Winters are more intense, but are shorter by a good month. Summers are hotter then they have ever been. The average global temperatures have been steadily rising.

    It's not just man made CO2, it's deforestation, it's mega cities, it's billions of miles of paved roads.
    The AT - It has it's ups and downs...

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slo-go'en View Post
    it's deforestation.

    true or false- there are less trees on the plant now than there were 50 years ago.

    hint- the answer to that question is the same as the answer to this question-

    true or false- we live in a society with much more violent crime today than people did 50 years ago.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slo-go'en View Post
    Wrong, we should be in the early stages of next ice age. One of the main driving forces behind an ice age is the wobble of the earth's axis. The axis reached it minimum declination towards the sun some 5,000 years ago. Since then the axis has been moving towards it's maximum declination, which should be cooling off the earth. Instead it's warming.
    The main problem is the oceans are getting hot. Unlike land which can warm and cool quickly, oceans store the heat long term. This is a major factor is severity and frequency of the storms we have been having, to the tune of 350 Billion in damages last year alone. It will get worse.

    LA had a cold snap? Great. Meanwhile Australia is having it's hottest summer yet and unprecedented wildfires. Winters are more intense, but are shorter by a good month. Summers are hotter then they have ever been. The average global temperatures have been steadily rising.

    It's not just man made CO2, it's deforestation, it's mega cities, it's billions of miles of paved roads.
    Well, I for one am not willing to bankrupt the country based on climate models on what the temperature is gonna be 25 years from now. But, for arguments sake, let’s assume everything you say is true, and the climate models are 100% correct. There’s not a darn thing we can do about it. In case you haven’t noticed, China and India are industrializing. That’s around 3 billion people, folks! They both have made it clear that, despite some lip service, they’ll not hamper their economies trying to limit greenhouse gases, and why should they, we didn’t.


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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince G View Post
    Well, I for one am not willing to bankrupt the country based on climate models on what the temperature is gonna be 25 years from now. But, for arguments sake, let’s assume everything you say is true, and the climate models are 100% correct. There’s not a darn thing we can do about it. In case you haven’t noticed, China and India are industrializing. That’s around 3 billion people, folks! They both have made it clear that, despite some lip service, they’ll not hamper their economies trying to limit greenhouse gases, and why should they, we didn’t.


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    Clearly, lamenting our own impotence is the only viable step to take.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince G View Post
    They both have made it clear that, despite some lip service, they’ll not hamper their economies trying to limit greenhouse gases, and why should they, we didn’t.
    "But Daddy! They don't have to do it. Why should I?" Love that argument. There are some in this country who look for a brighter future for the US. There are some who cannot look into the eyes of their children and with a clear conscience ignore the damage our society is doing to our planet. There are some who would like to see the US regain power as a world leader instead of as a laughing stock. There are some who recognize the short sightedness of ignoring climate change from both an environmental standpoint and also for a long term strong economy.
    Last year on my E2E of the LT I was lucky enough to watch a moose feeding in a pond for half an hour. Little did I think I was watching a "canary in a coal mine."

  15. #15

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    eating popcorn....

  16. #16
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    WOW what a way to distract from the plight of the moose, we have a real problem which effects more then just the moose, as some just want to turn it into politics and a chance to pot forth a political agenda. Nice

  17. #17
    Registered User meat803's Avatar
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    My main problem with this climate science is that their predictions are horribly wrong. If you cannot make accurate predictions then you obviously don't understand the mechanics. We should definitely research this more with an open scientific mindset. Not instantly point at someone and call them a witch when they disagree. I'm a triple crowner and pollution disgusts me. Should we pump endless amounts of pollution into the world like China? No way. There must be a balance and reason with respect to human life and the environment.

    I treasure our planet and if man made climate change is real then I am by all means want to be proactive in help find a solution. But I wont be fear mongered into buying into it. I have given both sides equal consideration and at this point I don't believe it to the degree they speak of. For years their claims and models have been vastly over stated and shown so with facts. I have never had a legitimate discussion with someone that is pro climate change. As soon as I point out facts that contradict their view, they become upset and the discussion devolves. That shows a serious flaw in their argument. They only want to present what supports their belief and ignore what doesn't. That isn't science, thats religion. Why so much emotion when someone doesn't agree? It isn't healthy for discussion and the development of ideas. The whole climate debate is toxic because believers make it so. You're demonized if you so much as question the logic. That is insane.

    Like I have said, if I am wrong, I want to be shown the facts that change my mind. I don't want to disagree just to disagree and be hard headed. I don't care about the politics of it, just the facts. In the last 100 years the temperature has risen .7 degrees (from NASA). You are telling me this small increase is causing a total shift in tick and moose population? That is ludicrous. 100 years! 10 degrees sure, even 5, but less that 1 over a century? For just one second can you understand how someone may be skeptical when you say this is a direct result of climate change?
    2014 Foothills, 2015 AT GA-ME, 2016 LT SOBO, 2017 Art Loeb, 2017 Cranberry 50, 2017 PCT SOBO
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  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince G View Post
    ......But, for arguments sake, let’s assume everything you say is true, and the climate models are 100% correct. There’s not a darn thing we can do about it. .....
    You are right about one thing, too late to stop climate change now. Thirty years ago maybe we could have but its too late now. Maybe we can mitigate its effects by future actions but for now we are along for the ride (and so are the moose).
    If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.

  19. #19

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    [QUOTE=meat803;2238923........Like I have said, if I am wrong, I want to be shown the facts that change my mind. I don't want to disagree just to disagree and be hard headed. I don't care about the politics of it, just the facts. In the last 100 years the temperature has risen .7 degrees (from NASA). ......[/QUOTE]

    You misquoted NASA. Here are the facts from NASA. Take some time and read them. https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
    If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.

  20. #20

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    Well, when it's all said and done, in a million years it will be like we were never here. The Earth has another couple billion left in her, so maybe something else will have a go at it too.
    The AT - It has it's ups and downs...

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