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  1. #181

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    It does seem like we're creating an imaginary problem to make a point.

  2. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by Puddlefish View Post
    You have poor logic skills. I could say that you spend time at the computer, because you don't like being in the outdoors enough, you post on message boards because being in the woods isn't enough. It would be untrue. Just like your statement that I listen to music because hiking is too boring without it is untrue. It's an invalid assumption, because it assumes that's there's only one way to properly enjoy the outdoors.

    It's a crappy gatekeeping attitude. It's you deciding, based on your experience, that your experience is more pure, is better than someone else's way of doing things. I comprehend exactly what you said. You don't give a rats ass, but you still feel the need to demean those who do it differently than you do.
    Im not demeaning anyone
    Simply stating reality.

    If someone listens to other things in woods
    Its because they would rather do that, than not. This is irrefutable. They arent doing something against their will.


    If that in itself is demeaning to realize, so be it. Your interpretation, not mine. Dont put your thoughts in my mouth.

    If you notice, im not arguing to not wear headphones, or even giving a reason not to, or suggesting what to think about those that do

    just stating reality....if you listen to something else out there....its because you prefer to. People can have their own opinions about it .
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 04-11-2019 at 16:06.

  3. #183

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    Probably just human nature, but I do find it interesting that the primary focus of a thread like this quickly becomes:


    • Do other people bring too much technology to the Trail, and do so in an inappropriate and disrespeful way?


    Rather than:


    • Are we ourselves bringing too much technology on our own hikes, and paying a personal price for that choice?


    To my way of thinking, the second question is more important ó albeit without the opportunities to virtue signal in a lovely online discusion.
    Whada diz wertree cignull?


    All quite on the WB front.

  4. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by CalebJ View Post
    It does seem like we're creating an imaginary problem to make a point.
    Here's a quote from a Rattlesnake website---regarding hiking---It's from Arizona Hikers' Guide to Rattlesnakes Safety---See it here---

    https://rattlesnakesolutions.com/sna...esnake-safety/

    5. Donít wear headphones when you hike.


    Rattlesnakes have a really great feature that does a great job keeping us from stepping on them Ė the rattle. When you get too close to a wary rattlesnake, it sounds off to let you know that youíre getting too close. As scary as it might seem when this happens, the result of you going one way and the snake going the other is how thatís supposed to work; thatís the system working.

    How do you ruin a good thing? Replace the sounds of birds and wind winding through desert canyons with the same sounds you listen to while stuck in traffic. When you have headphones on, youíre opting out of the built-in safety features generously maintained by rattlesnakes. Even worse, if youíre blasting music for all to hear, youíre not only facing the danger of ďsilentĒ rattlesnakes, but from me throwing rocks at you.

    And just because this comes from Arizona does not mean we don't have scores of rattlesnakes in our Southeastern mountains. In fact, I'm seeing more rattlesnakes from year to year---and they are on established backpacking trails.

  5. #185

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    People all too often draw arbitrary lines in the sand, call one side good, and the other side bad, based on where they're standing at the moment.

    People who hike faster than me, don't really enjoy the outdoors, because they're going too fast to take it in properly. Fact.
    People who hike slower than me, don't really enjoy the outdoors, because they're going too slow to see much of it. Fact.

    People who stay in stealth camp don't really enjoy the trail experience, because they miss out on all the neat people. Fact
    People who stay in shelters don't really enjoy the trail experience, because shelters are noisy and filthy. Fact.

    People who wear brimmed hats, don't really enjoy hiking, because they miss out on 20% of the view upwards. That's 20% less of nature they enjoy. Fact.
    People who wear shoes/boots/footwear, don't really enjoy the outdoors. They miss the tactile sensation of feeling the trail under their feet. Fact.
    People who wear sunglasses, don't really enjoy the outdoors, as they see a reduced spectrum of light. Fact.
    People who use bugspray, don't really embrace the outdoor experience, as ticks and illness are an important part of nature. Fact.
    People who use earbuds, don't really enjoy the outdoors. Fact.

    Old people who wake early, and rudely speak at full volume when I'm trying to sleep, are the bane of my existence. Fact.
    Young people, who stay up late, and rudely make noise while I'm trying to sleep, are the bane of my existence. Fact.


    All of these "facts" are seriously flawed and require a great deal of your own perspective to process. They all rely greatly on your personal interpretation of what enjoying nature consists of. We all draw the lines in the sand, at slightly different spots. We hike, camp, tent, backpack, walk, amble, run, in a way that works best for us. It's tacky to pretend someone else is "doing it wrong" because they're doing it differently. It's insulting to diminish someone else's experience, because you have a different preference and different experiences.

    This is not a call for anarchy. We can hike our own hike, without intruding on anyone else's hike.

  6. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipi Walter View Post
    Here's a quote from a Rattlesnake website---regarding hiking---It's from Arizona Hikers' Guide to Rattlesnakes Safety---See it here---

    https://rattlesnakesolutions.com/sna...esnake-safety/

    5. Don’t wear headphones when you hike.


    Rattlesnakes have a really great feature that does a great job keeping us from stepping on them – the rattle. When you get too close to a wary rattlesnake, it sounds off to let you know that you’re getting too close. As scary as it might seem when this happens, the result of you going one way and the snake going the other is how that’s supposed to work; that’s the system working.

    How do you ruin a good thing? Replace the sounds of birds and wind winding through desert canyons with the same sounds you listen to while stuck in traffic. When you have headphones on, you’re opting out of the built-in safety features generously maintained by rattlesnakes. Even worse, if you’re blasting music for all to hear, you’re not only facing the danger of “silent” rattlesnakes, but from me throwing rocks at you.

    And just because this comes from Arizona does not mean we don't have scores of rattlesnakes in our Southeastern mountains. In fact, I'm seeing more rattlesnakes from year to year---and they are on established backpacking trails.
    I've made a great effort in life to protect my hearing. Do you imagine that I'm blasting music at full volume and can't hear other things? I can hear people coming up behind me, I can carry on a conversation, I can even hear a rattlesnake. I saw one last year sunning itself on a rock, mid trail, in NH. It was just a baby, so it was in pre-rattle form. A few people told me they saw rattlers in the morning warming themselves on campfire stones. That seems a bigger risk than just randomly in the trail.

    How about just carrying on a conversation with a hiking partner on a windy day, couldn't that be just as loud as earbuds? How about just a really windy day, where the wind is whipping loudly through the trees, should we stop hiking in the wind for fear of the .0001% chance of a rattlesnake bite?

    Personally, I think it's kind of sad someone is equating beautiful music to "what we listen to in traffic." I equate music to far more glorious things, past friendships, cathedrals, happy memories, and even nature. I think the author was just editorializing a bit. That said, on that trail in Arizona, yeah, I probably would leave the earbuds in the pack, and listen for rattlesnakes.

  7. #187

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    Quote Originally Posted by Puddlefish View Post
    We hike, camp, tent, backpack, walk, amble, run, in a way that works best for us. It's tacky to pretend someone else is "doing it wrong" because they're doing it differently. It's insulting to diminish someone else's experience, because you have a different preference and different experiences.

    This is not a call for anarchy. We can hike our own hike, without intruding on anyone else's hike.
    A simple discussion on any facet of backpacking involves expressing differing opinions---whereby Opinions themselves become intruding on someone else's hike.

    For example, if I recommend winter backpacking in full leather boots vs trail runners---that's my opinion---and my opinion only. People will then say, "Tipi Walter wants you to do it HIS way . . " when in fact I'm just expressing an opinion on gear---which most likely goes against THEIR opinion on gear. But it's called a Discussion---and yes someone's differing opinion (my differing opinion) could intrude on someone else's hike.

    Without expressing our opinions---on gear, on technology, on tents or quilts or whatever else (on headphones while hiking) . . . well . . . we wouldn't have any need for this Forum.

    And why would anyone even ask our opinions about Technology on the Trail if he/she doesn't want to know them?

  8. #188
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    I get the HYOH idea... and I am fine with it as long as it doesn't mess with MY HIKE. It is kind of the same thing in a classroom (yes, I am a teacher). If someone wants to listen to music while working/hiking, no big deal as long as others don't have to listen to it. Frequently, I have to call my kids out to turn their music down only because they have cheap earbuds, and people around them don't want to hear it. Same is true when hiking... if a person wants to listen to loud music, get quality earbuds or turn it down - please!

    Me, personally, I like to deplug a bit. Yes, sometimes, I listen to music. Sometimes, I check Guthooks. Every day or two (or three), I text home to let everyone know I am fine. However, it is nice not to sit staring at my phone and feeling the need to be on social media...

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNhiker View Post
    well.......

    more people have been killed by snakes while attending church than in the woods.......
    A good reason to be in the woods, rather than in church.
    "It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how." ---Dr. Seuss

  10. #190
    Registered User lonehiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puddlefish View Post
    People all too often draw arbitrary lines in the sand, call one side good, and the other side bad, based on where they're standing at the moment.

    People who hike faster than me, don't really enjoy the outdoors, because they're going too fast to take it in properly. Fact.
    People who hike slower than me, don't really enjoy the outdoors, because they're going too slow to see much of it. Fact.

    People who stay in stealth camp don't really enjoy the trail experience, because they miss out on all the neat people. Fact
    People who stay in shelters don't really enjoy the trail experience, because shelters are noisy and filthy. Fact.

    People who wear brimmed hats, don't really enjoy hiking, because they miss out on 20% of the view upwards. That's 20% less of nature they enjoy. Fact.
    People who wear shoes/boots/footwear, don't really enjoy the outdoors. They miss the tactile sensation of feeling the trail under their feet. Fact.
    People who wear sunglasses, don't really enjoy the outdoors, as they see a reduced spectrum of light. Fact.
    People who use bugspray, don't really embrace the outdoor experience, as ticks and illness are an important part of nature. Fact.
    People who use earbuds, don't really enjoy the outdoors. Fact.

    Old people who wake early, and rudely speak at full volume when I'm trying to sleep, are the bane of my existence. Fact.
    Young people, who stay up late, and rudely make noise while I'm trying to sleep, are the bane of my existence. Fact.


    All of these "facts" are seriously flawed and require a great deal of your own perspective to process. They all rely greatly on your personal interpretation of what enjoying nature consists of. We all draw the lines in the sand, at slightly different spots. We hike, camp, tent, backpack, walk, amble, run, in a way that works best for us. It's tacky to pretend someone else is "doing it wrong" because they're doing it differently. It's insulting to diminish someone else's experience, because you have a different preference and different experiences.

    This is not a call for anarchy. We can hike our own hike, without intruding on anyone else's hike.
    This post needs to be fact checked.
    Lonehiker

  11. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipi Walter View Post
    A simple discussion on any facet of backpacking involves expressing differing opinions---whereby Opinions themselves become intruding on someone else's hike.

    For example, if I recommend winter backpacking in full leather boots vs trail runners---that's my opinion---and my opinion only. People will then say, "Tipi Walter wants you to do it HIS way . . " when in fact I'm just expressing an opinion on gear---which most likely goes against THEIR opinion on gear. But it's called a Discussion---and yes someone's differing opinion (my differing opinion) could intrude on someone else's hike.

    Without expressing our opinions---on gear, on technology, on tents or quilts or whatever else (on headphones while hiking) . . . well . . . we wouldn't have any need for this Forum.

    And why would anyone even ask our opinions about Technology on the Trail if he/she doesn't want to know them?
    I'd be more willing to give you 5 mins on trail if you first offer a bribe of two avocados. Wonder if you have some extra?

  12. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipi Walter View Post
    A simple discussion on any facet of backpacking involves expressing differing opinions---whereby Opinions themselves become intruding on someone else's hike.

    For example, if I recommend winter backpacking in full leather boots vs trail runners---that's my opinion---and my opinion only. People will then say, "Tipi Walter wants you to do it HIS way . . " when in fact I'm just expressing an opinion on gear---which most likely goes against THEIR opinion on gear. But it's called a Discussion---and yes someone's differing opinion (my differing opinion) could intrude on someone else's hike.

    Without expressing our opinions---on gear, on technology, on tents or quilts or whatever else (on headphones while hiking) . . . well . . . we wouldn't have any need for this Forum.

    And why would anyone even ask our opinions about Technology on the Trail if he/she doesn't want to know our opinions?
    I think you personally are pretty careful about stating that you have preferences, and typically leave the "moral failing if you don't agree with me," out of the equation. You state what works for you, in your circumstances. Nothing at all wrong with that. You obviously have a style that works for you, and you rightfully share those opinions. Other participants are all too eager to sneak in generational politics, and other "they're doing it wrong" aspects. Those are the people I'm addressing.

    I, with my limited experience, try to be careful with my advice, stating what things work for me, and why. Just like you don't like the people who "hold court" and don't ask questions. I'm not a bit fan of those who "hold court, and gatekeep."

    Gatekeeping: the activity of controlling, and usually limiting, general access to something. In effect, I find it annoying and shortsighted when someone tells me, that my experience is less valid, because I only hike two miles a day in the winter, or that I don't like the outdoors because I listen to music.

    It's a hiking forum, we should be able to discuss hiking, technology, and express opinions, just like you said. We can do so in a respectful, thoughtful way way without insulting others; without conveying our opinions as facts, and putting down other people's opinions.
    Last edited by Puddlefish; 04-11-2019 at 16:50.

  13. #193

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    Quote Originally Posted by lonehiker View Post
    This post needs to be fact checked.
    Indeed it does.

  14. #194

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    I'd be more willing to give you 5 mins on trail if you first offer a bribe of two avocados. Wonder if you have some extra?
    Next trip menu is in the works. It very well might include a tub of hummus and one avocado and some Bosc pears---along of course with peanut butter to smear on the pears. Most items will be closely guarded in camp from marauding bears and raccoons . . . but there's always extras. You bringing the watermelon???

    Quote Originally Posted by Puddlefish View Post
    I think you personally are pretty careful about stating that you have preferences, and typically leave the "moral failing if you don't agree with me," out of the equation. You state what works for you, in your circumstances. Nothing at all wrong with that. You obviously have a style that works for you, and you rightfully share those opinions. Other participants are all too eager to sneak in generational politics, and other "they're doing it wrong" aspects. Those are the people I'm addressing.

    I, with my limited experience, try to be careful with my advice, stating what things work for me, and why. Just like you don't like the people who "hold court" and don't ask questions. I'm not a bit fan of those who "hold court, and gatekeep."

    Gatekeeping: the activity of controlling, and usually limiting, general access to something. In effect, I find it annoying and shortsighted when someone tells me, that my experience is less valid, because I only hike two miles a day in the winter, or that I don't like the outdoors because I listen to music.

    It's a hiking forum, we should be able to discuss hiking, technology, and express opinions, just like you said. We can do so in a respectful, thoughtful way way without insulting others; without conveying our opinions as facts, and putting down other people's opinions.
    Very reasoned post and a good response. My opinion only.

  15. #195
    ME => GA 19AT3 rickb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puddlefish View Post
    I saw one last year sunning itself on a rock, mid trail, in NH. It was just a baby, so it was in pre-rattle form. A few people told me they saw rattlers in the morning warming themselves on campfire stones. That seems a bigger risk than just randomly in the trail.
    Very, very, very few in NH.

  16. #196

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    Very, very, very few in NH.
    Yeah, I've seen three lifetime.

    Edit: The people who told me they saw them on campfire stones, were on the southern AT. Shouldn't have mixed my stories together like that.
    Last edited by Puddlefish; 04-11-2019 at 17:28.

  17. #197
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    I've never seen one rattlesnake in northern NH in almost 20 years. Plenty of milk snakes, and lots of garter and other small snakes, but no rattlers.

  18. #198

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4eyedbuzzard View Post
    I've never seen one rattlesnake in northern NH in almost 20 years. Plenty of milk snakes, and lots of garter and other small snakes, but no rattlers.
    I've been in NH for 50 years, mostly in southern NH, and more recently upper valley. I've seen one in Salem as a kid when there were still woods in Salem, Raymond about twenty five years ago (when I was showing my kids how to spot garter snakes along an old stone wall,) and recently in New London along a rarely hiked trail.

  19. #199

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    Lotta cowbell in this session.

  20. #200

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    Everyones experience in outdoors is different.

    The overweight dude that hikes 3 mpd has a different experience from the fit liteweight guy hiking 25.

    The guy with old school 70s 2nd hand gear has a different experience from someone with newer gear.

    The person in boots....has a different experience from those in trail runners.

    The psycho carrying a a 95 lb pack and staying out 3 weeks thru blizzards, intense storm fronts has a different experience from your average fair weather hikers.

    The person relying on effusive up to date data , crowd sourced via connected electronics, has a different experience from those with minimal data and paper guide.

    People hiking in groups have different experience from hiking solo.

    People staying in shelters have different experience from those searching out campsites. Those using popular marked campsites in guides, have different experience from people who find their own as light is fading, ( or after dark).

    And even the person hiking with earphones.....has a different experience from those without.

    Everyone may like their version of outdoor experience....but they are all...very different. is any "better" to than others? Thats subjective and up to personal taste, and popular opinion.


    The important thing is to understand that everything affects your experience in some way, often significantly. And decide for yourself if that's acceptable you.

    Possibly reflect on the reasons for your decisions. For instance, some group hikers, not all, are afraid to be alone in woods and will never hike or camp alone. Their version of outdoors must always be tainted by presence of other people. They will never know solitude, or the feeling of being self sufficient for days in vast wilderness without seeing another human. Ok for them, that probably scares the poo out of them.

    Maintaining electronic connections to civilization also taints the ability to feel disconnected from civilization. For some, its that connection that permits them to do what they do. Without it, they wont. They are actually afraid to be totally disconnected, without cell or satellite communication. Even on AT, which is kind of ridiculous imo, at least south of ME.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 04-12-2019 at 06:19.

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