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  1. #21

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    I have a fairly new one and haven't noticed anything but I will keep an eye out. Glad you could get this issue resolved

  2. #22

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    There is absolutely no excuse for delamination issues, ever. There is no scenario that exists where delamination could be considered normal wear and tear unless we're talking 10 years of use or something like that. I find this behaviour shocking by Zpacks but to be honest after watching many AT videos on youtube this year it seems like they're having more and more issues, probably a good case of trying to keep up with demand now that the DCF is becoming more mainstream.

    I suspect Zpacks will lose their edge in time, I know people who've gotten away from using their packs from construction issues, however their shelters I assumed were the bread and butter, perhaps not.

  3. #23

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    This type gear is expensive.
    But its not high end quality your paying for .
    It's lightweight, expensive material, and handmade.

    The gear is also......disposeable....
    Read that again
    The gear is disposable.
    Cuben fiber doesnt last forever.
    A tarp canopy may last 200 to 250 nights
    The ground cloth half of that

    if you're too worried about a piece of seam sealing tape
    Then you bought the gear with the wrong expectations
    If it's functional, it's good. You should see inside of my arc blast after 1500 miles. Lots of peeling seam tape, and patches.

    My hexamid has two tears patched in canopy, one 6" long.
    My deschutes came with several issues, and hole in edge of canopy. Sealed and patched with tape. Done

    If you expect it to maintain its purchase value..after any significant use ....youll be dissapointed

    Now, you should expect brand new to not have defects
    But after a few uses....get over any minor issues. It dont matter. Its disposeable.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 06-06-2019 at 21:56.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Watson View Post
    There is absolutely no excuse for delamination issues, ever. There is no scenario that exists where delamination could be considered normal wear and tear unless we're talking 10 years of use or something like that. I find this behaviour shocking by Zpacks but to be honest after watching many AT videos on youtube this year it seems like they're having more and more issues, probably a good case of trying to keep up with demand now that the DCF is becoming more mainstream.

    I suspect Zpacks will lose their edge in time, I know people who've gotten away from using their packs from construction issues, however their shelters I assumed were the bread and butter, perhaps not.
    As someone who is currently hanging out in my duplex right now.. this instant. It stinks.

    Its got over 300 nights on it now.

    Hell i leave this $600 tent setup for days now in the yard...

    They arent the bread and butter. Its functional.. its quality. But theres no craftsmanship.

    Its a good tent though.

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  5. #25
    Registered User andymc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    This type gear is expensive.
    But its not high end quality your paying for .
    It's lightweight, and handmade.

    The gear is also......disposeable....
    Read that again
    The gear is disposable.
    Cuben fiber doesnt last forever.
    A tarp canopy may last 200 to 250 nights
    The ground cloth half of that

    if you're too worried about a piece of seam sealing tape
    Then you bought the gear with the wrong expectations
    If it's functional, it's good.

    If you expect it to maintain its purchase value......youll be dissapointed
    I donít completely agree. Iíd rather not pay 630.00 for a shelter and have it failing in vital areas before I even use it on trail. The failure was more like ďfeetĒ of tape than a ďpieceĒ of tape. If I only wanted lightweight and handmade, I would just buy some DCF and make one or three myself. I know the materials are expensive but some of the total cost is for quality, design, and professional workmanship, which I was able to completely find with another company in the same price range.
    Lifespan of a product is completely relevant to care and usage. 200 nights is a lifetime to me since I have other ultralight gear I like to use as well. Shelters can last a single thru hike, or in my case of being an average weekend warrior, Iíll probably pass mine on to my son one day. A product being considered disposable is specific to each individual case.


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  6. #26

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    Well to be frank DCF has a short life compared to high quality Silnylon - so yes it's more disposable than quality silnylon. The Duplex isn't anything new if we're being honest, it's basically a lighter version of the Six Moon Designs Lunar Duo which has been out for a very long time now. But for something like the AT - where you need ventilation and rain protection - it's fine. I assumed they were well made but in my experience all the cottage companies typically suffer from suspect craftsmanship at times (Tarptent and MLD are the best IMO), hand made in America might sound nice but seasoned Vietnam factories with decades of experience are far superior in terms of quality - politics is another matter however.

    Regarding Cuber Fiber /DCF, Andrew Skurka said this in this blog...

    "The performance of Cuben will degrade over time due to use, UV exposure, repeated folding, and wet storage. But the lifespan is still excellent. Ron Bell at MLD estimates the functional lifespan of his shelters made with .75 oz/yd2 at around 250 “thru-hiker nights,” which assumes intense use and occasional wet storage. This is comparable to or in excess of standard coated nylons, which Ron puts at 300 to 500 nights depending on the quality."

    https://andrewskurka.com/cuben-fiber...orth-the-cost/

  7. #27
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    Iím not comparing materials. God knows weíve heard that enough. Iím saying for me and my usage, my current tent which happens to be a DCF Tarptent is not viewed as disposable.
    I agree with your Skurka and Bell quotes. I knew what I was buying when I chose my materials. But in my particular case, Iím not hiking a great western loop or a Yukon expediton so I expect my product to last a little longer than a few weeks of sitting on a shelf before falling apart.


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  8. #28

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    I am sorry your gear has minor flaw.

    But as i said, all gear is disposeable.
    Use it, it degrades
    Dont use it, it degrades, just slower
    Adhesives degrade with time, harden, crack, coatings and materials degrade with time, and with UV. Plastcizers evaporate out of plastics and they get brittle, metal corrodes.

    Nothing...nothing is made to last forever. They are made to be used, reasonably, right now. Not stored for 10-20 yrs. Thinking any gear is lifetime gear is foolish. Clothing too. Elastic degrades, polyester thread degrades, synthetic fabrics degrade....just with age. Things might look OK at first.....but quickly fail when used or stressed. You cant see this....but its there.

    Whether you use it or not, in 20 yrs its trash. Maybe sooner. Might just be 10 yrs, sometimes even less.

    Put tape over part pulling up, and use it. Its perfectly functional.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 06-07-2019 at 05:53.

  9. #29
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    Thanks for your concern on my issue. If you read this thread you would know I was able to send it back and get something else. Much happier now and havenít had any issues whatsoever with my tarptent.



    If you can get 2-300 uses from a razor is it still labeled disposable? I guess you can if thatís how you want to look at it. Once again, just not the term I want to define my gear no matter how delicate it is. Iíd rather not put my shelter in the category of paper plates, razors, toilet paper. On the other hand, I know itís not a family heirloom or my grandsons mantelpiece, but 10-15 years of light use should be reasonable longevity. I expect to make repairs and maybe have failures along the way but not out of the box for $600-700. This issue would have more acceptable in my eyes with use. Still donít believe I need to feel comfortable and justify repairing expensive products out of the box by labeling them disposable.


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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by andymc View Post
    Thanks for your concern on my issue. If you read this thread you would know I was able to send it back and get something else. Much happier now and haven’t had any issues whatsoever with my tarptent.



    If you can get 2-300 uses from a razor is it still labeled disposable? I guess you can if that’s how you want to look at it. Once again, just not the term I want to define my gear no matter how delicate it is. I’d rather not put my shelter in the category of paper plates, razors, toilet paper. On the other hand, I know it’s not a family heirloom or my grandsons mantelpiece, but 10-15 years of light use should be reasonable longevity. I expect to make repairs and maybe have failures along the way but not out of the box for $600-700. This issue would have more acceptable in my eyes with use. Still don’t believe I need to feel comfortable and justify repairing expensive products out of the box by labeling them disposable.


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    You have now jumped the shark!

    Thom

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheyou View Post
    You have now jumped the shark!

    Thom
    I havenít said anything unreasonable. Just two different mentalities. Iím guessing a thru hiker vs me: weekend warrior who dreams of thru hiking. Different expectations/goals with gear thatís all.


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  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by andymc View Post
    Thanks for your concern on my issue. If you read this thread you would know I was able to send it back and get something else. Much happier now and havenít had any issues whatsoever with my tarptent.



    If you can get 2-300 uses from a razor is it still labeled disposable? I guess you can if thatís how you want to look at it. Once again, just not the term I want to define my gear no matter how delicate it is. Iíd rather not put my shelter in the category of paper plates, razors, toilet paper. On the other hand, I know itís not a family heirloom or my grandsons mantelpiece, but 10-15 years of light use should be reasonable longevity. I expect to make repairs and maybe have failures along the way but not out of the box for $600-700. This issue would have more acceptable in my eyes with use. Still donít believe I need to feel comfortable and justify repairing expensive products out of the box by labeling them disposable.


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    Glad you got resolution .
    But your problem wasnt unique

    Its been repeated hundreds of times

    People buy things to them, that are expensive
    And expect cosmetic perfection

    The real issue, is spending an amount of money that is significant to them. $600-700 isnt really much money. But it is to many people, and this causes them to expect cosmetic perfection to justify it.

    This occurs with many handmade items....even $150,000 boats. The laughable thing is people are so focused on getting cosmetic perfection for their money, ......they are oblivious to fact they wasted money on junk to start with.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 06-07-2019 at 07:16.

  13. #33
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    I am a zpacks fan and all of my purchases have been really great quality workmanship. The issue andy had and the way zpacks originally tried to handle it are not acceptable. Nobody should have to repair a new tent and a duplex is far from disposable. Joe V should really think about customer experience and expectations as the reputation is falling short.

  14. #34
    Registered User andymc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maineiac64 View Post
    I am a zpacks fan and all of my purchases have been really great quality workmanship. The issue andy had and the way zpacks originally tried to handle it are not acceptable. Nobody should have to repair a new tent and a duplex is far from disposable. Joe V should really think about customer experience and expectations as the reputation is falling short.
    Thank you! Couldnít have said it better. Glad you have had good experiences with them.

    For what itís worth, Iím still a Zpacks fan as well. I loved the duplex design, and they gave me the customer service I requested in the end. It just sounds like I just made my purchase during a period of inconsistent quality.


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  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by andymc View Post
    I’m not comparing materials. God knows we’ve heard that enough. I’m saying for me and my usage, my current tent which happens to be a DCF Tarptent is not viewed as disposable.
    I agree with your Skurka and Bell quotes. I knew what I was buying when I chose my materials. But in my particular case, I’m not hiking a great western loop or a Yukon expediton so I expect my product to last a little longer than a few weeks of sitting on a shelf before falling apart.


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    Yeah, we don't disagree, sucks that you got a poorly made shelter considering the price

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    Glad you got resolution .
    But your problem wasnt unique

    Its been repeated hundreds of times

    People buy things to them, that are expensive
    And expect cosmetic perfection

    The real issue, is spending an amount of money that is significant to them. $600-700 isnt really much money. But it is to many people, and this causes them to expect cosmetic perfection to justify it.

    This occurs with many handmade items....even $150,000 boats. The laughable thing is people are so focused on getting cosmetic perfection for their money, ......they are oblivious to fact they wasted money on junk to start with.
    Seam tape on a tent is 'cosmetic perfection'? This is 100% functional and in a critical area. Tents are designed for one major element - rain. They are sewn together, and those needle holes leak, the tape is there to seal the needle holes so the tent can perform for it's desired purpose - to stop rain. The tent is brand new and the tape is peeling, the tent also costs $600. Calling this cosmetic is amusing.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Watson View Post
    Seam tape on a tent is 'cosmetic perfection'? This is 100% functional and in a critical area. Tents are designed for one major element - rain. They are sewn together, and those needle holes leak, the tape is there to seal the needle holes so the tent can perform for it's desired purpose - to stop rain. The tent is brand new and the tape is peeling, the tent also costs $600. Calling this cosmetic is amusing.
    The seam was covered and mfg offered more tape to place over lifted edge. Which, btw, is exactly what they will do to returned tent and sell for $25 lower price in bargain bin, to someone not nitpicky that doesnt want to wait weeks for a new tent.

    The ONLY value these items have us that they are light. If they weighed 42 oz instead of 20 oz you couldnt sell it at any price. You are not paying a premium for fine craftsmanship, or an outstanding weather resistant design. You are paying for light wt expensive raw materials and hand labor to construct. If $600 is too much money to accept less than cosmetic perfection, then you probably shouldnt be spending that amt of money . Dont go counting it as asset on personal balance sheet......in a couple years it will be worth a fraction if what it cost, whether used or not. Items degrade, and are also superceded by new designs rapidly. Theres little market today for a used UL shelter from just 10 yrs ago.

    As i said, you should expect new items defect free, but at same time, its not a big deal if you gonna use it. You should have supply of cuben tape on hand. If you not going to use it, you threw money away so you can be part of cool kids club....

    Wait till you see what squirrell claws due to 0.51 cuben ..or a falling pointy pine cone or stick....Best thing...its easily repaired 100% with tape and patches. Duct tape will work fine for weeks and still be carefully peelable to make permanent repairs later.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 06-08-2019 at 14:38.

  18. #38
    Registered User andymc's Avatar
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    Default Zpacks Duplex problem

    Dang, squirrel claws and DCF?.............
    I know!




    Only 57 grams per can too!
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    Last edited by andymc; 06-08-2019 at 14:55.

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    The seam was covered and mfg offered more tape to place over lifted edge. Which, btw, is exactly what they will do to returned tent and sell for $25 lower price in bargain bin, to someone not nitpicky that doesnt want to wait weeks for a new tent.

    The ONLY value these items have us that they are light. If they weighed 42 oz instead of 20 oz you couldnt sell it at any price. You are not paying a premium for fine craftsmanship, or an outstanding weather resistant design. You are paying for light wt expensive raw materials and hand labor to construct. If $600 is too much money to accept less than cosmetic perfection, then you probably shouldnt be spending that amt of money . Dont go counting it as asset on personal balance sheet......in a couple years it will be worth a fraction if what it cost, whether used or not. Items degrade, and are also superceded by new designs rapidly. Theres little market today for a used UL shelter from just 10 yrs ago.

    As i said, you should expect new items defect free, but at same time, its not a big deal if you gonna use it. You should have supply of cuben tape on hand. If you not going to use it, you threw money away so you can be part of cool kids club....

    Wait till you see what squirrell claws due to 0.51 cuben ..or a falling pointy pine cone or stick....Best thing...its easily repaired 100% with tape and patches. Duct tape will work fine for weeks and still be carefully peelable to make permanent repairs later.
    Dancing around the point again. Sloppy seam tape peeling off a $600 shelter which is brand new is unacceptable. The end. Thanks for playing.

  20. #40
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    Glad you got it sorted and Joe came through, in the end. For what it's worth, I have had zero problems and lots of contented nights inside my tarptent, Double Rainbow.Sleep well !

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