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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockDoc View Post


    The calories in/calories out theory never worked for dieting because calories are not equal to each other and the theory ignores the effects of hormones like insulin. It doesn't work for hiking either. If we had to eat 6000 calories for every trek we ever took, our species would have fallen flat thousands of years ago. Probably the greatest physical feats ever done were done fasted, by fat adapted individuals.

    I dont think you understand thermodynamics and an energy balance.

    Energy in-energy out=accumulation

    Unless you are converting mass to energy via e=mc2, i assure you the energy balance is correct. If someone doesnt understand it, that just them.

    A calorie, is a calorie. Its a unit of energy. Energy is consumed by body, expended, and stored. Some energy is used converting one fuel source into another, and some is used to simply maintain body homeostasis. Some may be excreted without being absorbed by body due to innefficiency or problem in digestive system. It well known it requires about 25% more energy to convert protein to energy form that the body can store compared to carbs or fats...so you can eat 25% more protein without gaining weight. That doesnt mean a calorie isnt a calorie....it means some people just dont understand.

    But it is ALWAYS correct if your intelligent enough to add up the factors involved correctly. Guaranteed. Its a law of thermodynamics. Energy is not created, or destroyed, it just changes forms and internal energy of objects.

    It most certainly does work to predict weight lose and gain as well. Realizing that body wt changes are not just fat storage, water is stored as well. In process of storing glycogen as fuel in muscles, body stores 3 g water per g glycogen. When most people diet they dont realize all they lose first week + is glycogen and water, they havent lost any fat at all yet.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 04-30-2019 at 02:09.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    [COLOR=#333333]"
    1) @ 3 lbs(48 oz) food/day @ 8500- 9000 cals/day that's about a 180-185 cal/oz ratio. That's an exceptionally high Keto Diet like fat content diet of 84% of your daily calories coming from fat. Attempting to obtain a wider nutritional density with that high a daily fat content will be difficult likely among even diehard Keto dieters. I'd strongly suggest unless you're well informed about Keto Diets and maintain a Keto dietary approach pre 2 month hike you not have that high a cal/oz ratio on trail. It will be difficult getting your nutrition. Nutrition and energy is NOT, I repeat NOT, existent and determined by calories alone! The caloric energy in a food is potential energy. Converting it into useful kinetic energy is a process that is affected by range of aspects.
    I should clarify. The 3lb estimate was rounded down from my calculation, was for dry food only and did not include a bottle of olive oil on another line item, assumed at least some weight loss due to caloric expenditure on the trail, and assumed some recovery in town. So many people act like 3lb of food is crazy excessive, and I keep coming up with that on the extreme low end of my estimates. It sounds like you are agreeing that those calorie estimates (for 200-220lb range) seem reasonable for long days of hiking, correct? I can figure out the food weight/bulk easy enough from that (and I'll go far enough to estimate directly from my planned meals).

    As stated, my goal here was with regards to weight planning. I'm not trying to figure out my entire dietary intake quantity-wise (I'd rather just eat when I feel hungry, or force myself to eat more if I'm getting too light). I just have to figure out weight/volume totals for my consumables so I can pick a pack and test it out over the summer without wasting a lot of cash.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post

    2) Its' a mistaken thru hiking and LASHing notion one can always some how make up for a longer term
    4-5+ days [COLOR=#333333]nutritional and caloric deficit by in town gorging at zeros and neros every 5 days.
    I was looking at this as more of a reduced caloric expenditure in town (closer to my current rate), and only slightly elevated intake. I doubt I could consume more than 2500-3000 calories in a sitting even if I tried, at least without making myself ill. Is there something wrong with that even intake variable expenditure approach to calculation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    [COLOR=#333333]
    3) If the 2 months is during summer and shoulder seasons night hike. The AT is a maintained wider highly and regularly blazed and signed single track tread generally optimal for night hiking conditions. Night hiking means you'll need to carry less H2O wt and sweat less making for greater caloric/food and H2O efficiency. When it's cooler and we're backpacking under less physical and mental duress we consume less. This requires healthy consideration of consumption which U.S. citizens are not in the habit.
    I already do this extensively in the summer. I go through crazy quantities of water otherwise. I'm planning this for early spring, though, so less of a concern for water consumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    [COLOR=#333333]
    4) Reduce body fat if obese or more than 20-25 over wt. Fatter people eat more food. Don't wait to start this body fat reduction until on trail. Don't assume excessive body fat is a good thing on trail. It's still wt and volume one has to carry.
    From past years winter-weight, I expect to be starting at roughly 10% over ideal. Not perfect, but nothing crazy. I'm guessing much of that would be gone well before the end of the first month.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    [COLOR=#333333]
    5) Consume less sugar. When I began doing these things I was astounded realizing 10-12% of my on trail food wt was sugar, often refined sugar, weight. Sugar hampers satiation and consistent maintenance of energy levels resulting in blood sugar highs/lows - energy roller coasting - often addressed with consumption of more sugar or increased lethargy. As Mapman said constant grazing, particularly of non sugary snacks and large meals, is the goal. It can assist maintaining blood sugar levels and therefore result in less binge eating.
    I tend to eat a large portion of fruit, but very little refined sugars. I don't see that changing much on trail, and the fiber in dried fruits always seems to balance the satiation aspect over the raw sugars just like in fresh fruits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    [COLOR=#333333]
    6) Avoid the wt and possible lack of satiation consequences by avoiding highly processed pre packed food like experimentation particularly food additives that this type of "food" often contains that have been demonstrated to interfere with satiation neurotransmitter control mechanisms within the brain. A LASH or LD hike's added caloric and nutritional requirements is not an excuse to continue with off trail junk food gorging and diets unless one is unconcerned with hiking performance and energy consistency. Habituation to on trail junk food gorging can be problematic not only on trail but, if one continues, and many do just that, post hike off trail.
    I'll be preparing a good chunk of my food in advance, and I'll be eating very well quality-wise. I only eat poultry/fish for meat, and I need to avoid cashews/mangos/pistachios (severe urushiol allergy I can't risk making worse). So that rules out a lot of the pre-packaged backpacking meals, trail mixes, etc. I'm guessing I'll get really sick of the same selections of safe packable stuff from the supermarkets, so I'll be arranging for drops to a large number of the stops. I've already got my dehydrators going on the staples (legumes, quinoa, brown/wild rice, whole wheat pasta, etc.), and I'll switch over to drying fruits/vegetables when they come into season, and then meats over the winter (to minimize freezer space). The pre-cooked dehydrating aspect is new for me, but the fresh food processing of the fruits/veggies as they come in is a yearly thing, anyhow.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    But it is ALWAYS correct if your intelligent enough to add up the factors involved correctly. Guaranteed. Its a law of thermodynamics. Energy is not created, or destroyed, it just changes forms and internal energy of objects.
    Absolutely! That's where the easy estimates like "net Calories" come in. Foods like raw celery really do have some macro-nutrients in them, it just takes our bodies so much energy to extract it that it's near zero calorie-wise.

    Individual aspects add up too, like I can eat a very large quantity of fresh/dried fruit without it bothering my digestion, but if most people attempt to eat a quarter bag of prunes, the resulting *situation* is not going to be very calorie efficient vs. just eating one or two. I don't happen to do so well with greasy foods compared to most, though.

  4. #24
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    I've seen a lot of reviews that indicate the Arc Haul in particular performs poorly above 25-26lb. It's just too much of an investment/risk for me to get one of those packs for the higher weights, and you seem to have confirmed the weight band, even if I run a substantial calorie deficit (thank you for that!). I've also seen reviews indicating the Exos works well until about 30lb, but that's going to be right at the lower edge for me on resupply even if I can get by at 2lb food per day, etc.[/QUOTE]

    Just to ease your concerns on the pack. I had an Archaul that I used for a couple years. It's a good pack and I think that it handled 30 lbs just fine and a bit more than that when I needed it to. What I didn't like about it was how fiddly all of the straps and adjustments are. Plus, all of the adjustments are hiker-sized so I was pretty closed to maxed out on the lengths and I had trouble with straps loosening and slipping frequently and the thin straps chaffed more than I'd like. That's a really personal thing though and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend an Archaul as a solid light weight pack choice.

    I am currently using a HyperLight Mountain Gear 4500 Southwest and I really love their packs. They are a pretty basic DCF bag with aluminum stays and heavy duty fabric. They are a bit heavier than the Z-packs stuff because of the material. That's what I like in my gear though: simple, tough, and light (but it's not cheap.) 40 lbs isn't a problem for the pack

    I agree that the EXOS is a little questionable at that carry weight IMPE. Again, a nice bag with a great warranty but everything in it feels pretty, well, lightweight to me and I'm a big guy that puts a lot of stress on my gear. The ATMOS, on the other hand, was a very sturdy bag that carried weight really comfortably. It's not a light bag though plus it's nylon so it gets heavier in rain. You also have to be a little extra careful about packing your gear to keep it dry. That being said, it's still not a bad choice to my mind and I wouldn't be concerned about loads up to 50 lbs in that bag. Yes, it is heavier but it distributes the load well and is comfortable so that may be worth a couple of extra lbs in total weight to you.


    JMHO
    Last edited by Jayne; 04-30-2019 at 12:44.

  5. #25
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    Despite trying not to apply what I do and where I'm at in reducing food to your situation YES IMHO 3+ lbs of food/day seems excessive. Why are you not adding in the olive oil into your food wt? If its being eaten it's food wt.

    "I just have to figure out weight/volume totals for my consumables so I can pick a pack and test it out over the summer without wasting a lot of cash."

    Yeah, but that's also a function of your food bulk not just food wt, anticipated frequency of resupply, how much your diet and other factors capture those food cals and food nutrition BEYOND calories,...


    A calorie is NOT a calorie is NOT a calorie. I'll say it again; no food is alienated calories, just calories. You can't just consume calories alienated from other compounds and substances. Food is not just calories! Food is MORE than calories. Thinking of food just as calories is overly simplistic and incorrect. The 4 calories in a gram of simple carbs(sugar) of a can of sugary Coke which is basically sugar water is not the same as a 4 calories in a gram of complex carbs in broccoli even though a gram of either are 4 cals. The 9 calories of fat in a gram of man made artificial hydrogenated oil fat is NOT the same as 9 calories in a gram of fat from an avocado or 9 calories in gram of fat in wild salmon. You cant isolate consuming calories outside of a larger perspective of consuming food.

  6. #26

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    I found that one pack of Pop tarts for breakfast will get me a couple hours down the trail before I feel the need to get into my Cliff bars, yet three packets of instant oatmeal for breakfast wouldn't last me but about 30 minutes before I got into my Cliff bars.
    ...I tried the Pop tarts after someone told me to eat more fat.
    .
    Have you checked out the ULA circuit or catalyst? They are a bit heavier than the zpacs stuff, but are rated for more weight - and users have said the extra weight carries well. I haven't had a chance to put many miles on my Circuit, but the day hike I did felt great.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by MtDoraDave View Post
    I found that one pack of Pop tarts for breakfast will get me a couple hours down the trail before I feel the need to get into my Cliff bars, yet three packets of instant oatmeal for breakfast wouldn't last me but about 30 minutes before I got into my Cliff bars.
    ...I tried the Pop tarts after someone told me to eat more fat.
    .
    Have you checked out the ULA circuit or catalyst? They are a bit heavier than the zpacs stuff, but are rated for more weight - and users have said the extra weight carries well. I haven't had a chance to put many miles on my Circuit, but the day hike I did felt great.
    I rate , personally, my arc blast to 25, my circuit to 28 .

    In low 30s, you need a coventional pack , like osprey atmos.
    The wt will be stable, not bouncing and sagging with every step. It will feel lighter than in overloaded pack.

    I usually eat a quick snack before hitting the trail in the morning. Might be a Snickers, might be a packet of little chocolate donuts if I'm lucky. But I stop for a real breakfast a few hours later and usually have granola /dried fruit/milk. Is probably my favorite meal of the day. Cuts into miles . Every time stop to eat , costs 1 mpd. Eating on fly is good way to add 3-4 miles to day.

  8. #28
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    Thank you all for your thoughts. I ended up ordering a Seek Outside Unaweep 4800 with the 4" frame extensions, so I should have no practical pack weight limit. I'm not about to treat that as a license to carry crap, though, and base is still well under 20lb. Assuming it fits well, that's one more item off the checklist.

  9. #29
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    ... I'm planning this for early spring, though, so less of a concern for water consumption.



    Staying hydrated is still a concern from many different aspects including appetite modulation.


    I tend to eat a large portion of fruit, but very little refined sugars. I don't see that changing much on trail, and the fiber in dried fruits always seems to balance the satiation aspect over the raw sugars just like in fresh fruits.



    Ahh very nice. You see the relationship with sugar and fiber intake together in energy consistency.



    I'll be preparing a good chunk of my food in advance, and I'll be eating very well quality-wise. I only eat poultry/fish for meat, and I need to avoid cashews/mangos/pistachios (severe urushiol allergy I can't risk making worse). So that rules out a lot of the pre-packaged backpacking meals, trail mixes, etc. I'm guessing I'll get really sick of the same selections of safe packable stuff from the supermarkets, so I'll be arranging for drops to a large number of the stops. I've already got my dehydrators going on the staples (legumes, quinoa, brown/wild rice, whole wheat pasta, etc.), and I'll switch over to drying fruits/vegetables when they come into season, and then meats over the winter (to minimize freezer space). The pre-cooked dehydrating aspect is new for me, but the fresh food processing of the fruits/veggies as they come in is a yearly thing, anyhow.


    You may be able to consume mango if you avoid the tree sap, leaves, and skin of the fruit as I'm fairly certain mango flesh doesn't contain urushiol. The skin is the biggest container of urushoil. Have someone else peel fresh mango, have them rinse it including after they peel/slice it, and eat or buy dried mango slices with skin removed. I've seen folks with severe Anacardiaceae botanical family allergies eating mango this way. Cashews are actually washed even raw ones to remove the urushoil. I dont know for sure if trace amts of urushoil are left behind. In pistachios it's the shells and paper like "husk" where most of the urusoil is contained. If you have a severe life threatening allergy than perhaps it's best to stay away. However, I do know folks in Hawaii and Florida who are heavily allergic to urushoil that do consume all these foods.


    "Pasta" is now available made from a variety of whole grains, seeds, legumes, etc so no need to limit your diet to wheat pasta. ie: quinoa, black beans, lentils, edamame, rice, non GMO corn, etc. They are even available in some degree to southeastern mainstream AT med-lg grocery stores.

  10. #30
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    Meh...pop-tarts/peanut butter, tortillas and bean dip/pepperoni (combined is delicious), tuna packet on flat bread, GORP...The list of combinations from dollar store is endless. Pizza and burgers in town along with tons of fruits. Don't forget town hydration, aka beer.

    MW and Dogwood are infinitely more educated and involved than me. I didn't take a very in depth approach after a while on trail. Eat everything and hike your a$$ off.

    Disclaimer: If you are older, diabetic, vegan, lactose intolerant, tired or otherwise limited...forget my advice.

    Just having fun, guys. Please don't torture me for being a smart-aleck.

    I don't mean that older diabetics (etc, etc) are limited. Dang, it's hard to post satire now without offense.....

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    You may be able to consume mango if you avoid the tree sap, leaves, and skin of the fruit as I'm fairly certain mango flesh doesn't contain urushiol. The skin is the biggest container of urushoil. Have someone else peel fresh mango, have them rinse it including after they peel/slice it, and eat or buy dried mango slices with skin removed. I've seen folks with severe Anacardiaceae botanical family allergies eating mango this way. Cashews are actually washed even raw ones to remove the urushoil. I dont know for sure if trace amts of urushoil are left behind. In pistachios it's the shells and paper like "husk" where most of the urusoil is contained. If you have a severe life threatening allergy than perhaps it's best to stay away. However, I do know folks in Hawaii and Florida who are heavily allergic to urushoil that do consume all these foods.
    As far as I know, that's all 100% correct, and I never noticed issues handling mangos previously (used to eat them a lot, but I'm particular about washing my hands frequently during prep, so likely washed it right off). The last time I was exposed to poison ivy (transferred from a pup), I managed to avoid the ER, but not by much (according to two medical professionals, after seeing the photos). I still ended up with my eyes swelled completely shut for half a day (i.e. complete vision loss, except for light/shadow), and hives all over, despite starting high dose prednisone (used as an immune system suppressant) early on. Without Zanfel drastically cutting down the quantity present in my skin, I think it would have been so much worse. Even then, it took 6 weeks for the last of the initial rash to go away. The severity of the reaction increases with cumulative exposure, though, so the next one is supposed to be much worse. I have no idea how bad, so I'm requesting a course of prednisone before my hike (for the first aid pouch), just in case.

    It is well documented that dogs can eat poison ivy, and it doesn't seem to cause them any trouble symptom-wise. If they get any on their skin (as in, past the fur), they break out and itch just like we do. I wouldn't be surprised if the internal vs. external effect is the same for humans. I definitely saw the equivalent behavior where the urushiol entered my bloodstream from the skin exposure, and then I didn't see the systemic reaction until it hit my skin elsewhere (presenting first on the softest skin and progressing pretty much everywhere but the toughest callouses).

    I doubt I would even show short-term symptoms if I ate a pile of mango skins. I can't really justify the risk of making a future outbreak worse years down the line from continually eating trace quantities, though. That was downright miserable last time, let alone the repeated secondary exposures down the line (involving whole house carpet/upholstery cleanings, re-washing all clothing/bedding many time, etc.). I'd much rather break a rib or two than go through that again.
    Last edited by azdano; 05-08-2019 at 00:06. Reason: fix quoting

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by azdano View Post
    As far as I know, that's all 100% correct, and I never noticed issues handling mangos previously (used to eat them a lot, but I'm particular about washing my hands frequently during prep, so likely washed it right off). The last time I was exposed to poison ivy (transferred from a pup), I managed to avoid the ER, but not by much (according to two medical professionals, after seeing the photos). I still ended up with my eyes swelled completely shut for half a day (i.e. complete vision loss, except for light/shadow), and hives all over, despite starting high dose prednisone (used as an immune system suppressant) early on. Without Zanfel drastically cutting down the quantity present in my skin, I think it would have been so much worse. Even then, it took 6 weeks for the last of the initial rash to go away. The severity of the reaction increases with cumulative exposure, though, so the next one is supposed to be much worse. I have no idea how bad, so I'm requesting a course of prednisone before my hike (for the first aid pouch), just in case.
    You know they have poision ivy in the woods, right? Not a little either.
    Sounds like you are hyper sensitive

  13. #33

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    OK, Einstein, eat 100 calories of sugar and 100 calories of steak and tell me that they are equal in terms of how your body uses them. Calories are not equal in terms of how the body operates, is what I was very clearly saying.



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    Had you actually said something resembling that, you would have received vastly different responses.

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    ...
    I'll be preparing a good chunk of my food in advance, and I'll be eating very well quality-wise. I only eat poultry/fish for meat, and I need to avoid cashews/mangos/pistachios (severe urushiol allergy I can't risk making worse).
    Welcome to the club of being allergic to Mangos, Cashews and Pistachios. I am too, surprisingly more so than poison ivy. The good news is when the nuts are roasted it breaks down the urishiol oil. I have never had a problem eating commercially bought cashews and pistachios. I do have to stay away from the raw nuts fruits and the trees. Mangoes are the just the spawn fruit of satin! The flesh is safe to eat up but i cant even enjoy the flavor of it anymore.

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockDoc View Post
    OK, Einstein, eat 100 calories of sugar and 100 calories of steak and tell me that they are equal in terms of how your body uses them. Calories are not equal in terms of how the body operates, is what I was very clearly saying.


    Not that different in reality, because protein is a minor part of most peoples intake. No one wants to eat 20 skinless chicken breasts per day, or even 3. Been there.

    I used to diet when weightlifting periodically to cut up.
    Honest....wendys frosty and spicy chicken nuggets were my main lunch many days. If you do enough cardio, and restrict calories, graph it, have it under control.....it doesnt matter what you eat. Within reason. I got charts showing i lost weight slowly below 2300 cal. Goal was 1/2 lb per week. Weighing same time every morning, same scale is repeatable enough to trend well , consistent, predictable.



    Counting calories works perfect......if you know what your doing. No ,you cant predict based on only intake, because you dont know basal metabolic rate, or caloric daily expenditures, or how it will slow as body adapts and becomes more efficient, with any accuracy. When you graph it....you figure it out, and it covers all the things you cant know. The percentage of protein in your diet is also pretty constant.

    Most people with experience hiking have learned what caloric intake works for them as well, based on wt changes.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 05-11-2019 at 11:35.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by SC_Forester View Post
    Welcome to the club of being allergic to Mangos, Cashews and Pistachios. I am too, surprisingly more so than poison ivy. The good news is when the nuts are roasted it breaks down the urishiol oil. I have never had a problem eating commercially bought cashews and pistachios. I do have to stay away from the raw nuts fruits and the trees. Mangoes are the just the spawn fruit of satin! The flesh is safe to eat up but i cant even enjoy the flavor of it anymore.
    Mangoes are the spawn of satin.

    Do you know for a fact urushiol is broken down when roasting the nuts? It makes sense.

    I once worked on a landscaping crew with 3 Brazilian family members, two brothers and an Uncle, and two others removing extensive poison ivy infestations. The one brother and Uncle in teh middle of summer with no shirts or gloves on would rip it out with no chemical reaction holding heaps of it up against their bare chests throwing it into a dumpster. The other brother was mildly sensitive. At that time all I had to do was look at poison ivy and I'd break out. My sensitivity has lessened for what ever reasons that I now rarely get it with mild exposure.

  18. #38

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    [QUOTE=

    Do you know for a fact urushiol is broken down when roasting the nuts? It makes sense.

    .[/QUOTE]
    I do know that it is broken down under high heat. I cannot quickly provide a link to reputable source. So it really just my word.

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    If you're a SC forester as a Landscape Architect and hort I'll take you at your word family.

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