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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrifty Endurance View Post
    Pepper spray is legal in all 14 AT states. NC requires the container be no more than 5 oz. I carry pepper spray on a carabiner on my pack.
    Could you provide a citation for your claim about NC requiring the container be 5 oz or less? I don't know of any bear spray that is sold in that size.

    Are you referring to self-defense (against people) pepper spray, as opposed to bear spray? Even if that's the key distinction in the 5 oz limitation, I'd be interested in knowing about that restriction. Most personal pepper sprays are fairly small anyway so I wouldn't find that terribly surprising. However, if faced with a life-threatening situation in NC, I'd probably not hesitate to use an 8 or 10 oz canister of bear spray, or anything else, for that matter. I don't quite understand how you can't defend your life with anything at hand, if attacked.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by illabelle View Post
    Monday morning an article about the Virginia attack was left at my desk by a coworker.
    Tuesday he brought a small gun to show me.

    At a music lesson Tuesday evening another person brought out a small gun to show me.

    I had never considered carrying a gun and don't currently own one, but this incident is making me think about it, not just for the trail.

    No question that a weapon of some kind, appropriately and judiciously utilized, could have stopped the perp's actions. I'd much rather we were discussing a death by self-defense.
    I used to carry a gun but switched to bear spray after a friend of mine( long time park ranger) explained to me that spray has more uses and would be more effective in a night time situation. At 3 AM it's going to be harder for that bullet hit your target.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by SWODaddy View Post
    Honestly I think this incident makes a great argument for stealth camping, or at least staying away from shelters. Shelters will always attract the less serious/less prepared/party and drugs types.
    Yes, that's been my experience, over 50 years hiking the AT... Bad encounters (including a wacko with a machete) were ALL in shelters, none stealth camping which is always peaceful and private if you choose sites carefully.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by PennyPincher View Post
    Awareness and then listening to your gut.

    Good read for every person is "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin De Becker.
    I agree 100%. I look back at my life, and most dangerous situations I've been in, have been because I ignored my instincts.
    Time is but the stream I go afishin' in.
    Thoreau

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Time Zone View Post
    Could you provide a citation for your claim about NC requiring the container be 5 oz or less? I don't know of any bear spray that is sold in that size.

    Are you referring to self-defense (against people) pepper spray, as opposed to bear spray? Even if that's the key distinction in the 5 oz limitation, I'd be interested in knowing about that restriction. Most personal pepper sprays are fairly small anyway so I wouldn't find that terribly surprising. However, if faced with a life-threatening situation in NC, I'd probably not hesitate to use an 8 or 10 oz canister of bear spray, or anything else, for that matter. I don't quite understand how you can't defend your life with anything at hand, if attacked.
    Per this pepper spray sales website: https://www.pepper-spray-store.com/c...-carolina-laws

    There is an exemption of amount of pepper spray for use against animals. Probably meaning that you can use larger than 5 oz. bear spray, provided it's labeled as such.
    Time is but the stream I go afishin' in.
    Thoreau

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNhiker View Post
    do you have any facts that support this?
    FL has done studies of concealed carry permit holders. They find they commit crime at a lower rate than the general population, and even a lower rate than certified police officers.

    https://wjno.iheart.com/content/2018...-record-highs/
    Time is but the stream I go afishin' in.
    Thoreau

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by devoidapop View Post
    Carry a gun if you want to. Just please don't shoot anyone. Live a peaceful life. It is actually very rewarding.
    So you are implying that it would be a bad thing if Sanchez had a gun, and had shot Sovereign with it? I live a peaceful life, but there are times that justify the use of violence for the greater good, such as keeping other people from being harmed.
    Time is but the stream I go afishin' in.
    Thoreau

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by SWODaddy View Post
    To answer the OP's question...

    I think the effectiveness of pepper spray in a situation like we had here is dubious. You're inside a tent and likely to catch as much as the attacker for one. Second, the enraged whacko must be within the danger zone for a knife (~7 yards) for you to use pepper spray. Third, pepper spray will further enrage the whacko, yet not really inhibit him slashing and stabbing away at you.
    Well, that wasn't quite the situation. They weren't attacked in the tent, but while trying to talk sense into him.
    Time is but the stream I go afishin' in.
    Thoreau

  9. #69
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    There is some misinformation in this thread on pepper sprays...

    If your goal is to protect yourself against humans, Pepper Spray designed for humans is the way to go.
    Bear spray is LESS potent than pepper spray designed for human defense. Typically pepper spray for humans is designed to emit a directed stream, bear spray is more of a fog.

    Some of the states have limits on who (adult non-felons) can carry pepper spray and how much in ounces. New Jersey is the most problematic allowing only 3/4 of an ounce of paper spray. Also, it is my understanding that you cannot bring pepper spray purchased out of state into New York (and maybe Massachusetts), you must purchase in-state. So, lots of work to do if you want to legally carry through all 14 states.

    As with any self defense weapon, if you carry the spray inside your backpack it may be of limited value.
    “For of all sad words of tongue or pen,
    the saddest are these, 'It might have been.”


    John Greenleaf Whittier

  10. #70
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    I always conceal carry. A previous poster was correct in that it adds 14oz, but well worth the added weight. I prevented a mugging/assault by pulling my firearm (did not discharge it) several years ago in the parking lot on my business. It CAN happen to you!
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........
    Travel not for the destination, but for the joy of the journey.

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by imscotty View Post
    There is some misinformation in this thread on pepper sprays...

    If your goal is to protect yourself against humans, Pepper Spray designed for humans is the way to go.
    Bear spray is LESS potent than pepper spray designed for human defense. Typically pepper spray for humans is designed to emit a directed stream, bear spray is more of a fog.
    I can tell you, from experience, bear spray is enough to incapacitate a human.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by martinb View Post
    I can tell you, from experience, bear spray is enough to incapacitate a human.
    I do believe you Martin B, but the type intended for humans is smaller, lighter, targeted, and more potent. I see some mace packages online that just weigh one ounce vs. 9 ounces for bear spray.
    “For of all sad words of tongue or pen,
    the saddest are these, 'It might have been.”


    John Greenleaf Whittier

  13. #73
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    More clarification on pepper spray if I may. Pepper spray and bear spray is the same thing. The active ingredient in both is "Capsaicin and related capsaicinoids". It's a matter of degree. Both my COUNTER ASSAULT and UDAP PEPPER POWER bear spray list 2% active ingredients. I have before me two law enforcement agency issued pepper sprays. Galls' MK-3 Defense lists 10% active ingredient and Safariland's MK-6 at 0.7%. Bear spray comes out like RAID yard spray, while pepper spray emits a water gun like stream.

    While I do not know where to find the studies showing the ineffectiveness of pepper spray and tasers (I'm no academic), below is a good article that reviews some well documented instances. It is common knowledge in the law enforcement community that some people, for whatever reasons, aren't stopped by these tools. I can tell you through first hand knowledge that this is taught at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center's basic academies.

    https://www.staradvertiser.com/2016/...cidents-finds/
    Be Prepared

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by martinb View Post
    I can tell you, from experience, bear spray is enough to incapacitate a human.
    I happened to have watched a video just a few weeks ago...someone had a friend spray him with wasp spray to evaluate it's self defense value....then with pepper spray...I'm thinking it was bear spray but I'm not sure...
    Anyway, based on that...and on other things I've read over the years I'd agree it won't incapacitate a human necessarily...but will serve to break off the confrontation long enough to get away...or maybe to get on the offensive side of things

    ....and then I would be like someone else posted here a bit ago...would be very very nervous hiking away from that area that night... and for many days and weeks after. I'd be looking over my shoulder and running for sure....

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCloud View Post
    More clarification on pepper spray if I may. Pepper spray and bear spray is the same thing. The active ingredient in both is "Capsaicin and related capsaicinoids". It's a matter of degree. Both my COUNTER ASSAULT and UDAP PEPPER POWER bear spray list 2% active ingredients. I have before me two law enforcement agency issued pepper sprays. Galls' MK-3 Defense lists 10% active ingredient and Safariland's MK-6 at 0.7%. Bear spray comes out like RAID yard spray, while pepper spray emits a water gun like stream.

    While I do not know where to find the studies showing the ineffectiveness of pepper spray and tasers (I'm no academic), below is a good article that reviews some well documented instances. It is common knowledge in the law enforcement community that some people, for whatever reasons, aren't stopped by these tools. I can tell you through first hand knowledge that this is taught at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center's basic academies.

    https://www.staradvertiser.com/2016/...cidents-finds/
    I'm not in the law enforcement business, but i happened to be familiar with that article and there was an NPR program about this topic, and here's what I learned. Tasers are effective about half of the time, that is 50%. So, many law enforcement officers claim that 50% is better than 0%. Of the other 50%, in about one half it is improperly used by the officer, and the other half, it is because of circumstances beyond the control of the officer, such as the perpetrator is too close and the electric shock is not evenly distributed. As for bear/pepper spray, even if some of it gets into the eyes of whatever is menacing you, animal or human, than, again, this is better than nothing at all. That is my belief.

  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCloud View Post
    .......... while pepper spray emits a water gun like stream.........
    I had an expired pepper spray that I decide to fire off to see how it worked. The spray came out as you describe and shot at least 15 feet. I was surprised at the range but also for the need to have a reasonably good aim to hit the target.
    If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.

  17. #77

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    You don't need a 14 oz gun in these hiking situations, generally. You just need something that works. As a well trained, licensed CC myself, I would favor a small .22 magnum for the AT, like the NAA 5 shot revolvers. As Sam Colt said, these make us equal. They also tend to make us all very polite.

    Or, you can wave your hands and say "don't hurt me!", and see how that works out.

  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Time Zone View Post
    Could you provide a citation for your claim about NC requiring the container be 5 oz or less? I don't know of any bear spray that is sold in that size.

    Are you referring to self-defense (against people) pepper spray, as opposed to bear spray? Even if that's the key distinction in the 5 oz limitation, I'd be interested in knowing about that restriction. Most personal pepper sprays are fairly small anyway so I wouldn't find that terribly surprising. However, if faced with a life-threatening situation in NC, I'd probably not hesitate to use an 8 or 10 oz canister of bear spray, or anything else, for that matter. I don't quite understand how you can't defend your life with anything at hand, if attacked.
    As you are aware, there is difference between BEAR spray and PEPPER spray for commercial use. I carried Bear spray hiking 100 miles of Glacier National Park, but carried pepper spray when I climbed Mt Mitchell and Mt. Craig in North Carolina (NC) and trekked other sections as a solo female hiker. I am trained in wilderness first aid and have spent most of my life in the backcountry, so learned the law of the land from forestry personnel. I would NOT use Bear spray on people because it was not designed for that kind of use. You can check the NC statute, but here is the link to the pepper spray store https://www.pepper-spray-store.com/p...ray-state-laws. ATStrong

  19. #79

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    Trying to stay within the terms of the service agreement and on topic to keep this post from being deleted.

    My practice is to carry a non-lethal weapon and a lethal weapon with the intent to use the non lethal weapon first and only defend myself when it is abundantly clear that a failure to do so would have disastrous consequences.

    HYOH.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephanD View Post
    I'm not in the law enforcement business, but i happened to be familiar with that article and there was an NPR program about this topic, and here's what I learned. Tasers are effective about half of the time, that is 50%. So, many law enforcement officers claim that 50% is better than 0%. Of the other 50%, in about one half it is improperly used by the officer, and the other half, it is because of circumstances beyond the control of the officer, such as the perpetrator is too close and the electric shock is not evenly distributed. As for bear/pepper spray, even if some of it gets into the eyes of whatever is menacing you, animal or human, than, again, this is better than nothing at all. That is my belief.
    You are absolutely right. But I don't care why something didn't work, whether it be user error, distance, the attacker is on drugs or just plain immune. If being attacked, I only care that I escape! For me, I know that if I get a solid dose I am visually incapacitated for about 40 min, which is about normal. Can't even open my eyes. I've gotten a little residual as well, and was affected for about 20 min but could still see enough to walk. It's a legit option; I just don't like it personally.
    Be Prepared

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