Providing Information from Guthooks to those Who Havent Paid

[Gambit McCrae]

I and others frequently provide information from guthooks to people online who obviously do not have guthooks otherwise they wouldn't be creating threads asking for water reports. Is this ethical to do? Every time I do I think "why don't you buy the app that contains the information your asking for?". But then I feel bad for them and know I would like the information if i didnt have it, and I post info I find on the hook. Thoughts? I think I will probably from now on just suggest for them to get the app.

[colorado_rob]

I find the practice of sharing limited, piece-meal amounts of information from various paid-for sources acceptable, either by word of mouth or by posting on social media.

Directly distributing software, music, etc, that you have paid for is not OK though. For example, for our recent AT LASH my wife went ahead and just bought the complete trail Guthook map set. I probably could have managed to load those on my phone as well, but this would not be either legal or ethical. Same with photocopying book pages and giving those out.

Just my own ethic, everyone's is a little, sometimes a lot, different.

[LazyLightning]

I find the practice of sharing limited, piece-meal amounts of information from various paid-for sources acceptable, either by word of mouth or by posting on social media.

Directly distributing software, music, etc, that you have paid for is not OK though. For example, for our recent AT LASH my wife went ahead and just bought the complete trail Guthook map set. I probably could have managed to load those on my phone as well, but this would not be either legal or ethical. Same with photocopying book pages and giving those out.

Just my own ethic, everyone's is a little, sometimes a lot, different.

what if the book is out of print and not available anymore except a few random people asking for way over face value? …. would you consider it ok to photocopy pages/maps to help people out or would you say that's wrong to? … not trying to be a wise guy just wondering your thoughts.

[4eyedbuzzard]

what if the book is out of print and not available anymore except a few random people asking for way over face value? …. would you consider it ok to photocopy pages/maps to help people out or would you say that's wrong to? … not trying to be a wise guy just wondering your thoughts.

A couple of thoughts...
When was the book first published? Is the author alive? If not, when did they die? Important to determine how copyright duration applies.
How much of the work are you copying and for what purpose? A page or two for commentary or educational purposes is usually okay. Important to know as it pertains to "fair use".
And just an observation, but present value of many old books would be much higher than "face value" due to inflation alone, never mind rarity.

[colorado_rob]

what if the book is out of print and not available anymore except a few random people asking for way over face value? …. would you consider it ok to photocopy pages/maps to help people out or would you say that's wrong to? … not trying to be a wise guy just wondering your thoughts.

tough call, but I'm not too strict on my own ethics, nor do I give anyone grief on theirs. I do have a guide book published, for example, and couldn't care less if folks copy pages. A good friend, however, nicest guy around does NOT like folks copying his guide books though (he has written a couple dozen of them).

[Teacher & Snacktime]

If you bought a map would you not share directions?

[colorado_rob]

If you bought a map would you not share directions?

If I understand correctly, Gambit is referring to posting paid-for info on social media. In the case of a physical map, for example, if you bought a map, would it be OK to scan the map then post it online? I would say no.

[Tipi Walter]

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[chknfngrs]

and also ================================== and a little *********************

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[colorado_rob]

and also ================================== and a little *********************

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predictable response.

[Deadeye]

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I agree with Tipi. I think.

[Tipi Walter]

I agree with Tipi. I think.

Finally, some consensus.

[Deadeye]

I buy paper guidebooks, and have no problem letting someone else read or borrow them. Someday, I might try guthooks or something, but I'm still fond of paper maps - their batteries last forever.

[Tipi Walter]

I buy paper guidebooks, and have no problem letting someone else read or borrow them. Someday, I might try guthooks or something, but I'm still fond of paper maps - their batteries last forever.

I agree. Paper Maps---Dream Makers and Heart Breakers. Nothing quite like holding a 1:24,000 topo in your hand and studying each blue line and contour line and creases and folds n the landscape. In fact, a good topo can locate water for you if you study above where the blue lines stop.

Here's good example from a friend who drew out his trip route---

TOPO!map.JPG
Look for "Jenkins Meadow". See "HAOE LEAD" and there's a nice CS on the ridge at the "O" in HAOE. Go a little west and down the ridge a hundred feet to the north and you'll find a spring water source---second black mark on the right. Voila, water. The lower blue line on the map helps to find these obscure sources.

[Sarcasm the elf]

I and others frequently provide information from guthooks to people online who obviously do not have guthooks otherwise they wouldn't be creating threads asking for water reports. Is this ethical to do? Every time I do I think "why don't you buy the app that contains the information your asking for?". But then I feel bad for them and know I would like the information if i didnt have it, and I post info I find on the hook. Thoughts? I think I will probably from now on just suggest for them to get the app.

My gut reaction (and nothing more) is that if the person is asking detailed guide data that guthooks/atlas guides has collected or compiled as part of the official app the yeah, it’s unethical to freely share that. However if you’re referring to simply sharing crowdsourced comments from within the app, such as “as of Oct 1st people are reporting that water source X is dry” then to me that’s akin to sharing a comment that was posed in a Facebook hiking group or here on WB and I don’t see an ethical issue.

[Teacher & Snacktime]

My gut reaction (and nothing more) is that if the person is asking detailed guide data that guthooks/atlas guides has collected or compiled as part of the official app the yeah, it’s unethical to freely share that. However if you’re referring to simply sharing crowdsourced comments from within the app, such as “as of Oct 1st people are reporting that water source X is dry” then to me that’s akin to sharing a comment that was posed in a Facebook hiking group or here on WB and I don’t see an ethical issue.

This is essentially what I mean

[MisterQ]

On my section hikes I've occasionally had Guthooks users tell me about water sources or available campsites which aren't listed on the Awol guide I use. For a limited purpose like that I agree there is not an ethical issue.

[TwistedCF]

If you're talking about sharing comments by other users, that's just word of mouth. If someone on the street asks me for the time and I look at my watch and then share that information, is it unethical because they didn't pay anything to the manufacturer of the watch? The information contained in apps like Guthooks isn't proprietary, it's well known and heavily documented in countless other sources, almost all of which pre date Guthooks in particular and the internet in general. Add into that database the user comments which amount to hearsay. What the user is paying for is the convenience of having that information at arms reach. If someone asks you for that information and you don't want to share it you can tell them to "buy the app", but I don't think sharing the information is unethical. If you are currently on trail and someone asks you where they can find water, and you know where the water is, it could be argued that not telling them is unethical. If you're talking about random posts you encounter while browsing the web it seems like the easiest solution would be not to respond at all if you feel it's unethical.

[Paleolith54]

If you're talking about sharing comments by other users, that's just word of mouth. If someone on the street asks me for the time and I look at my watch and then share that information, is it unethical because they didn't pay anything to the manufacturer of the watch? The information contained in apps like Guthooks isn't proprietary, it's well known and heavily documented in countless other sources, almost all of which pre date Guthooks in particular and the internet in general. Add into that database the user comments which amount to hearsay. What the user is paying for is the convenience of having that information at arms reach. If someone asks you for that information and you don't want to share it you can tell them to "buy the app", but I don't think sharing the information is unethical. If you are currently on trail and someone asks you where they can find water, and you know where the water is, it could be argued that not telling them is unethical. If you're talking about random posts you encounter while browsing the web it seems like the easiest solution would be not to respond at all if you feel it's unethical.

Absolutely nailed it.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Here's the terms of use: https://atlasguides.com/terms-of-use/

Guthook is basically just a compiler of information available in the public domain, along with publicly shared uploaded content (like current water sources) from other users - content that nobody really owns. The info itself is free to use and distribute, no different than letting another hiker look at your AWOL Guide or map. The app and tech, however, is a license agreement, and distributing the app itself, or using the app for commercial purpose would violate the license agreement.