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  1. #21
    Registered User Majortrauma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalebJ View Post
    If opinions are irrelevant, then please stop sharing your ignorance of common sense.
    Real classy CalebJ. Your own ignorance is now on full display. Read what I actually typed.
    I asked for legal facts that proves someone has the legal authority to close the AT except for those portion of the trail in a Natl Park. Someones opinion or virtue signaling about what should or should not be done is not relevant and of no help to the hiking community and does NOT answer my question and many others who genuinely want to know what is within anyone's legal authority to close the AT.




    "But what none of these organizations can do, of course, is legally or logistically close trails that run the length of the United States."
    I've made this exact point numerous times when someone posts that "The ATC (or someone else) has closed the AT." It's simply not an accurate statement. And if it's not true, stop posting it. Unless it's a State Park, I seriously doubt that a state/ commonwealth can actually, legally close the AT or any other trail.
    If an agency actually does have the legal authority to close the AT, prove it.
    For the sake of this discussion, I'm not interested in what anyone thinks is the ethical thing to do. Opinions are irrelevant here, let's see some facts.

  2. #22
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    from earlier thread - slo-go'en, you wrote,

    Since it's still winter where I live, I just leave my fleece gloves on when shopping. The virus doesn't survive long on fabric. It will survive a long time on plastic, so plastic gloves could be counter productive.
    Where did you get the information that the virus does not survive long on fabric? You mentioned fleece gloves. Do you mean polyester fleece? Then you said it survives a long time on plastic.

    If you meant polyester fleece, I'm pretty sure that stuff is a type of plastic.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by med2 View Post
    How are you putting others at risk when individuals take risk each and every day. We must choose our own level of comfort. If I chose to hike the trail or go to the store during the Wuhan virus scare, that is my choice. Those that are hiking take the INDIVIDUAL risk of hiking. Just because someone else gets a warm and fuzzy feeling telling others how they personally should live is ridiculous. Okay, let's play this nonsense out. "Today I saw a bear on the trail near Hot Springs!" "Don't go there!" "Call the ATC and ask them to support stoping hikers from that area until a bear expert can give us the all-clear"....or, we as individuals can make the choices for ourselves knowing there was a bear spotted on the trail.

    People hike the trail each and every day with some kind of common cold or flu virus not knowing initially they have it. Should we stop hikers from hiking because there MIGHT be a risk? Of course not. Same with the Wuhan virus. Let the individual hiker assume his or her own choice and if they feel comfortable with the risk.

    The ATC closing their offices at Amicalola Falls State Park is silly. They are doing nothing except making themselves feel warm and fuzzy.
    Congratulations for making the most irresponsible post I've read yet. And your profile says you're a retired Paramedic (as am I), you should know better.
    You do realize that people carry and spread this virus without having symptoms don't you?
    If you've never hiked the AT for any distance you might not realize that the hiking community depends on many people to help them throughout their journey. The store owners, hostel/motel operators, the shuttle drivers, the post office clerks and more. You come into contact with all these people and risk the spread of this virus. Maybe we should think about others.
    Comparing this situation to seeing a bear and closing down the trail is ridiculous.
    I'm all for hiking your own hike and people making their own choices but in this case your choice may effect others in an extreme way.
    "Chainsaw" GA-ME 2011

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majortrauma View Post
    I asked for legal facts that proves someone has the legal authority to close the AT except for those portion of the trail in a Natl Park. Someones opinion or virtue signaling about what should or should not be done is not relevant and of no help to the hiking community and does NOT answer my question and many others who genuinely want to know what is within anyone's legal authority to close the AT.

    While I get your "ought" vs. "is" distinction inherent in your question, you add the opinion that "oughts" are "not relevant and of no help to the hiking community." I, and I expect many others, disagree. We are in a pandemic, and the hiking community is most certainly helped by people recognizing that they "ought not spread disease" [even unknowingly, such as those who are asymptomatic, including those who are in the incubation period]

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Majortrauma View Post
    "But what none of these organizations can do, of course, is legally or logistically close trails that run the length of the United States."
    I've made this exact point numerous times when someone posts that "The ATC (or someone else) has closed the AT." It's simply not an accurate statement. And if it's not true, stop posting it. Unless it's a State Park, I seriously doubt that a state/ commonwealth can actually, legally close the AT or any other trail.
    If an agency actually does have the legal authority to close the AT, prove it.
    For the sake of this discussion, I'm not interested in what anyone thinks is the ethical thing to do. Opinions are irrelevant here, let's see some facts.
    You should note the thread title. If the ethics of it aren't going to be what you are discussing, leave the thread.
    "Sleepy alligator in the noonday sun
    Sleepin by the river just like he usually done
    Call for his whisky
    He can call for his tea
    Call all he wanta but he can't call me..."
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  6. #26

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    Many people are on edge right now, including me. (My shoulders are sore from being tense!). But we need to be respectful of each other when we disagree, please.

  7. #27
    Registered User ldsailor's Avatar
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    Gee, I had to look twice to be sure I was on Whiteblaze. This sounds just like the Facebook group PCT Class of 2020. That group devolved into a name calling, verbal fight to the point that most group members quit or exited to another group where they could exchange opinions and ideas without condemnation.
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  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Time Zone View Post
    from earlier thread - slo-go'en, you wrote,
    Where did you get the information that the virus does not survive long on fabric? You mentioned fleece gloves. Do you mean polyester fleece? Then you said it survives a long time on plastic.
    If you meant polyester fleece, I'm pretty sure that stuff is a type of plastic.
    On a medical website talking about how virus generally spread and how long they can survive on various surfaces. When I say plastic, I mean hard plastic surfaces. Plastic cups, plastic bottles and such. The same is true of metal and glass.

    In fabric, the virus apparently gets trapped in the fibers.
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  9. #29
    ME => GA 19AT3 rickb's Avatar
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    It seems to me that even those who think it ethical to start or continue a thru hike would agree that it is imperative to self quarantine at the earliest sign of possible infection.

    To my understanding some “first signs” are more common than others — low grade fever and dry cough, for example. That said, those first signs vary considerably and even include gastrointestinal issues.

    With that in mind, is it reasonable to assume that hikers can/will elect to self quarantine — effectively — for a minimum of 14 days (and longer if they actually are infected) immediately upon getting a case of the runs, the sniffles or a bout of diarrhea?

    I am thinking the answer to that question (no) helps answer that large question of whether or not it is ethical to start or continue a thru hike.

    And that does not even consider spreading the virus when you don’t have symptoms.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldsailor View Post
    Gee, I had to look twice to be sure I was on Whiteblaze. This sounds just like the Facebook group PCT Class of 2020. That group devolved into a name calling, verbal fight to the point that most group members quit or exited to another group where they could exchange opinions and ideas without condemnation.
    Oh geez. The PCT Class of 2020 FB group is a dumpster fire and echo chamber rolled together.

  11. #31

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    While I have followed everyones take on the "ethics" of hiking at this time; it really isn't a question of ethics. It's a public health issue!! The ethical question will emerge when two critically ill patients are in the hospital, and the attending Physician has to decide which one gets the one remaining ventilator. Hiking the AT is a very social activity, and because of the logistics of a long distance hike, it is nearly impossible to avoid close contact with people on and off the trail. The best way to help avoid that ethical issue, is social distancing to lessen the numbers of infected people. I would implore all of the people in our AT family to stay at home with your loved ones, be a responsible citizen, and help to slow the spread of this very contagious pathogen.
    Last edited by Captain Panda; 03-23-2020 at 15:25.

  12. #32
    Registered User lonehiker's Avatar
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    I am self-absorbed and to be quite frank, proud of it...

    Now, personally, the logistics of thru-hiking/long section hiking right now would at least make me reconsider if it would be worth the hassle. My own long hikes being later this summer/fall hopefully will make this a moot point for me. However, I am going to do short trips that don't involve resupply and I absolutely see no ethical problem with doing such. I will shop for supplies, as I do my weekly shopping, as normal. Then drive to the trailhead, hike and return. I will as usual get gas and pay-at-the-pump. If I encounter someone on the trail I may or may not stop and converse with the person. I usually leave that option up to them anyways as I'm not the most gregarious person. As an aside, one of the best things you can be doing right now is to get outside and breath fresh air and get some sunshine. Of course I live in Wyoming where we do have fresh air (albeit cold still) and sunshine. Now should I start to exhibit signs of an infectious disease (any disease) I would take prudent measures and leave the trail and seek medical advice. As I would in any scenario.
    Last edited by lonehiker; 03-23-2020 at 15:25.
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  13. #33
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    We here in Europe are a few weeks ahead in the pandemy. We have a "stay at home" policy, with exceptions like to shop necessary things, go to doctor/hospital, or go for sports or a walk alone or with the people you are living with.
    I have been travelling through infectious countries 3 weeks ago and put myself in home-quarantaine for 2 weeks.
    Nothing wrong so far.

    Now I'm living in a spot a little outside of town where a famous local trail is passing by, right outside my door, straight through my property.
    Normally, 10-20 people will pass by on a nice sunny day.
    Now in Corona-time, 50-100 people walked the trail every day, numbers growing as weather warms up.

    So now I have avoided an infection while abroad, but am exposed to crowds back home.
    Would you call this "responsible hikers"?
    Most likely, in every hike you will have situations like my own (but you being the hiker, not the resident) where you cannot avoid getting close to other people.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo L. View Post
    We here in Europe are a few weeks ahead in the pandemy. We have a "stay at home" policy, with exceptions like to shop necessary things, go to doctor/hospital, or go for sports or a walk alone or with the people you are living with.
    I have been travelling through infectious countries 3 weeks ago and put myself in home-quarantaine for 2 weeks.
    Nothing wrong so far.

    Now I'm living in a spot a little outside of town where a famous local trail is passing by, right outside my door, straight through my property.
    Normally, 10-20 people will pass by on a nice sunny day.
    Now in Corona-time, 50-100 people walked the trail every day, numbers growing as weather warms up.

    So now I have avoided an infection while abroad, but am exposed to crowds back home.
    Would you call this "responsible hikers"?
    Most likely, in every hike you will have situations like my own (but you being the hiker, not the resident) where you cannot avoid getting close to other people.
    I hiked on Saturday and was shocked at the number of people out. I felt more vulnerable on the trail than I did at the grocery store.

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traffic Jam View Post
    I hiked on Saturday and was shocked at the number of people out. I felt more vulnerable on the trail than I did at the grocery store.
    And of course you were one of them, as was I. I believe short, passing encounters in the outdoors is very low risk.
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  16. #36

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    At this point anyone who has been on the trail for a couple of weeks is probably better off staying on the trail then trying to go home.

    But anyone with long distance plans who hasn't yet gotten on the trail yet should stay home for now. The weather will be better in a month anyway.
    Follow slogoen on Instagram.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slo-go'en View Post
    And of course you were one of them, as was I. I believe short, passing encounters in the outdoors is very low risk.
    I respectfully disagree. Did you see the photos of the vehicles parked all along the road at Mountain Crossings?

    per the ATC...

    “In a time when social distancing is necessary to minimize the spread and contraction of a dangerous virus, many have escaped to nature seeking isolation and unpopulated spaces. On the A.T., however, what they’ve found are trailhead parking lots exceeding their maximum capacities, shelters full of overnight hikers, day hikers using picnic tables and privies, and group trips continuing as planned. Popular spots along the Trail like Blood Mountain in Georgia, the McAfee Knob area in Virginia, and Annapolis Rocks in Maryland have seen day use reach record-breaking levels. Cars line the highways leading to popular day-hiking spots on the Trail. Hiking the A.T. has become, in other words, the opposite of social distancing. “

    I believe it’s only a matter of time before the state and federal government close their respective parks.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traffic Jam View Post
    I hiked on Saturday and was shocked at the number of people out. I felt more vulnerable on the trail than I did at the grocery store.
    If you pay attention to the simplest precautions regarding distance, what you handle, touching your face, and washing your hands I don't see how you can "feel" more vulnerable than in a relatively enclosed space where, much of the time, you can't maintain the recommended distance. Now, I wouldn't argue if you said you observed most of them blithely ignoring the rules; I see that myself, and I'm baffled by it. But I see no science-based reason why you can't stay safe on the trail just because there are lots of people out there.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleolith54 View Post
    ... But I see no science-based reason why you can't stay safe on the trail just because there are lots of people out there.
    Wouldn't the 'science-based reason' be just that? Because there are lots of people out there? Just askin.....

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crossbar View Post
    Wouldn't the 'science-based reason' be just that? Because there are lots of people out there? Just askin.....
    That's OK, reading AND comprehending at the same time takes practjce.

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