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  1. #101
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    Not much of a prophet needed to see that there will be no big hiking this year.
    In countries were the athorities did't enforce a "stay at home" policy in time with all might, the death count is shooting through the roof.
    Noboy would love you to be part of the exponential growth of infections.

    If in doubt please take a close look at Italy or Spain.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo L. View Post
    Not much of a prophet needed to see that there will be no big hiking this year.
    In countries were the athorities did't enforce a "stay at home" policy in time with all might, the death count is shooting through the roof.
    Noboy would love you to be part of the exponential growth of infections.

    If in doubt please take a close look at Italy or Spain.
    Friday's death toll for Italy was over 900 and Spain over 800 . Almost 1,000 deaths in 1 day. Yeah we better get serious about this.

  3. #103
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    The death toll is only one number.
    Behind this, there typically are 10-100x more people in (intensive) care, suffering and slowly suffocating to death.
    A most recent report from France/Elsass: "This is war-time medicine. We are evaluating who will get one of the scarce ventilator aids. At the beginning, we stopped this for patients over 80. Now we are at 72.
    We cant help but simply let them die".

    This is all from countries that have a very good health system, not 3rd world.

    Plase take this corona very serious.

  4. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by JNI64 View Post
    I know it's very frustrating. All the big rich countries with some of the smartest people in the world within all know something like is was inevitable why wouldn't we already have 100,000 ventilators somewhere in stockpile?
    A Dr. on ABC, this morning spoke of things in a different light. It's not necessarily how many ventilators you have, you could have a million, it's how many trained people (IE respiratory therapists) you have to operate them. This pandemic definitely has the ability to overrun any healthcare system.

  5. #105
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    still lots of hikers comin' through Damascus daily

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Wolf View Post
    still lots of hikers comin' through Damascus daily
    Very surprising to hear. The die hards. Thanks wolf. As a die hard yourself are you surprised at the hikers still out?

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by JNI64 View Post
    Very surprising to hear. The die hards. Thanks wolf. As a die hard yourself are you surprised at the hikers still out?
    no. not at all

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Wolf View Post
    no. not at all
    Forgive my ignorance not sure but what are they gonna do in places like are the smokies closed.? Last I heard you can still tent around shelters in the smokies? Virginia lots of hostel ,shuttle shut down, I imagine difficult to hitchhike. Not sure about snp shelter closed? No stealth camping in snp correct? Then Hf foot bridge out ok , md has closed all shelters, md has no stealth camping. Pa from I see has just about all shelter and campsites closed, on,and on up the trail etc,etc. And you're not at all surprised at the hikers still out? I guess to some the bigger challenge the bigger the prize?

  9. #109
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    nope. not surprised. i live in a hiker town. folks are walkin' on through

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by JNI64 View Post
    Forgive my ignorance not sure but what are they gonna do in places like are the smokies closed.? Last I heard you can still tent around shelters in the smokies? Virginia lots of hostel ,shuttle shut down, I imagine difficult to hitchhike. Not sure about snp shelter closed? No stealth camping in snp correct? Then Hf foot bridge out ok , md has closed all shelters, md has no stealth camping. Pa from I see has just about all shelter and campsites closed, on,and on up the trail etc,etc. And you're not at all surprised at the hikers still out? I guess to some the bigger challenge the bigger the prize?
    Well if they are in Damascus they are well past GSMNP. They probably can still find places to camp, but resupplying will definitely be tougher. LEO probably have much higher priorities now than making sure no one is walking through the woods. I am not condoning and saying they should be doing it, but have no problem believing some are.
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  11. #111
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    no problem with resupply in this area.

  12. #112

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    This is the second warning, this thread is about thruhiking and Covid-19. Stay on topic.
    "Sleepy alligator in the noonday sun
    Sleepin by the river just like he usually done
    Call for his whisky
    He can call for his tea
    Call all he wanta but he can't call me..."
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    Whiteblaze.net User Agreement.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majortrauma View Post
    "But what none of these organizations can do, of course, is legally or logistically close trails that run the length of the United States."
    I've made this exact point numerous times when someone posts that "The ATC (or someone else) has closed the AT." It's simply not an accurate statement. And if it's not true, stop posting it. Unless it's a State Park, I seriously doubt that a state/ commonwealth can actually, legally close the AT or any other trail.
    If an agency actually does have the legal authority to close the AT, prove it.
    For the sake of this discussion, I'm not interested in what anyone thinks is the ethical thing to do. Opinions are irrelevant here, let's see some facts.
    https://www.njherald.com/news/202003...19-cases-climb

    VERNON — Authorities have closed a portion of the Appalachian Trail ... because the Appalachian Trail is under the authority of the Appalachian Trail Conservancy, Burrell said he did not have the authority as mayor, acting on his own, to close the Appalachian Trail or prevent people from accessing any portion of it.That has since changed following the New Jersey State Park Service’s announcement late Friday, in conjunction with the conservancy, that the Appalachian Trail boardwalk has been closed and will remain closed until further notice. According to the Park Service, ”(the) trail’s boardwalk and bridge are too narrow for visitors to maintain the required six feet of social distancing.”...

    So, NJ State Parks, in coordination with ATC, closed this section. On a larger scale, I believe NPS has legal authority to close (power to regulate) any or all parts of the AT under 54 USC.

  14. #114
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    While the AT remains technically open in most places, the growing closures of trailheads, shelters, overnight camping bans, etc., have pretty much made a long hike a logistical no-go situation at least for the next month or so, and I would expect the list to grow especially as spring progresses. The list of closures is extensive http://www.appalachiantrail.org/home.../trail-updates There just seems to be too much uncertainty to be able to plan a long hike anytime this year.
    Last edited by 4eyedbuzzard; 03-30-2020 at 03:55.

  15. #115
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    Here in Europe we tend to enforce wearing masks when being in public.
    Sounds like a very reasonable solution.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo L. View Post
    Here in Europe we tend to enforce wearing masks when being in public.
    Sounds like a very reasonable solution.
    Except that at this point in time, we don't have enough masks for the medical professionals, nevermind the general public.

  17. #117
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    Scientists found out that even a primitive DIY mask or a simple bandana does quite a lot to reduce the infections.
    Infections of Corona by contact (like, grabbing the same item by hand) is very unlikely anyway.

    So while it makes sense to wash/sanitize hands for many other reasons, it seems not to be the most critical measure against Corona.
    Wearing a mask (of any kind) does help against Corona!

  18. #118

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    What is the source of information that primitive DIY masks does "quite a lot" to reduce exposure of infection, or washing hands is not a "critical measure" against the virus? Nothing I have seen or heard suggests those things. I am not sure who would be saying this, however these comments are contrary to what's being said by medical professionals here in the US. Though what we do in our own domiciles is our own business, what we do in public in the hiking trail environment is our collective business and responsibility.

    The CDC in the US (as of yesterday) disagrees with advising healthy people to use masks:
    The Centers for Disease Control generally disagrees. It recommends face masks for people who are coughing and sneezing to prevent them from spreading COVID-19 to those around them. The CDC says people in close contact with an infected person may also benefit from wearing masks. It has, however, argued that masks are not designed to protect healthy people from getting the virus and there are reasons the general public shouldn’t wear them:

    • A mask can actually promote the spread of germs.
    • The masks become damp while being worn and should be thrown out after each use.
    • People wearing them may touch their face more as they adjust their masks, which can promote infection

    The N95 respirator mask is about the only type that will protect the wearer against infection, which are not readily available to the public. Though masks of many types, including primitive can be helpful to reduce the spread of disease for those who are infected and/or symptomatic, they do not work well in reverse to protect those who are not infected. Viruses are extremely small (10 to 100 times smaller than bacteria) and can very easily find their way through many layers of filters when inhaling through fabric of most any type. To put it into terms most can relate to, it would be like keeping pollen dust from coming through a screen in an open window. Common dust masks or homemade bandana masks are even less beneficial to prevent the virus from spreading to other people and surfaces, but do help slow the airborne release of particles will settle on people or surfaces when coughing.

    On the trail, wearing a mask of any type is difficult if not highly impractical, breathing through a mask or cloth is difficult for one, sweat, fogging of glasses, and snags from low tree branches and brush make these difficult to keep properly positioned, once out of place one has to use their hands to adjust them, which typically will cause fingers (even gloved) from touching the face. This alone defeats the purpose of the mask.

    Then there is the decision of when to use it and for how long as you approach or move away from others on the trail. You may find yourself behind someone who is infected but not yet sick who is breathing hard as they work their way up the trail, you are following in the air they have just expelled, which microscopic droplets of air (think cold foggy days when you can actually see some of that breath) are released with virus in them and can linger in suspension for long periods of time. When do you put the mask on or take it off? What if there is a breeze carrying expelled breath from others, what footage should be used to trigger mask use? What do you do with a regular dusk mask or a bandana once you have been through this exhaled air by one or several people and you remove it from your face, touching the surfaces exposed to that air? Without proper disinfecting processes, that dust mask or bandana are now potentially covered with the virus you are trying to protect yourself against. Handling the mask to put it on for the next hiker contact sharply increases the likelihood of infection or worse, passing it to others without knowing you are inflicting illness on others.

    On washing of hands, the CDC advises:

    Wash your hands frequently
    Regularly and thoroughly clean your hands with an alcohol-based hand rub or wash them with soap and water.
    Why? Washing your hands with soap and water or using alcohol-based hand rub kills viruses that may be on your hands.


    Perhaps Europe has a different point of view and medical data that suggest hand washing is not a critical element in controlling the spread of disease, so I will be interested to see who is saying that, what qualifications they possess to say it, and in what context it is being said in.

    Overall, what makes the most sense is the practice of social isolation and sheltering in place to reduce contact with those carrying virus. For now, these are probably the best two methods people can use to best avoid illness. This puts hiking into the grey area of disease management, while the social distance element can be employed a lot, it is not always assured in narrow tread way foot bridges and other places where there is no place to step out of the way 6-foot or more.

    I don't mean to sound harsh in this, but we as a community need to be careful in promoting things that are clearly against published best practice and common sense. It's not about you personally, it's about the information and doing what we can to vet new information and adapt it for the activity that unites us.

  19. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    What is the source of information that primitive DIY masks does "quite a lot" to reduce exposure of infection, or washing hands is not a "critical measure" against the virus? Nothing I have seen or heard suggests those things. I am not sure who would be saying this, however these comments are contrary to what's being said by medical professionals here in the US. Though what we do in our own domiciles is our own business, what we do in public in the hiking trail environment is our collective business and responsibility.

    The CDC in the US (as of yesterday) disagrees with advising healthy people to use masks:
    [FONT="]The Centers for Disease Control generally disagrees. It recommends face masks for people who are coughing and sneezing to prevent them from spreading COVID-19 to those around them. The CDC says people in close contact with an infected person may also benefit from wearing masks. It has, however, argued that masks are not designed to protect healthy people from getting the virus and there are reasons the general public shouldn’t wear them:[/FONT]

    • A mask can actually promote the spread of germs.
    • The masks become damp while being worn and should be thrown out after each use.
    • People wearing them may touch their face more as they adjust their masks, which can promote infection

    The N95 respirator mask is about the only type that will protect the wearer against infection, which are not readily available to the public. Though masks of many types, including primitive can be helpful to reduce the spread of disease for those who are infected and/or symptomatic, they do not work well in reverse to protect those who are not infected. Viruses are extremely small (10 to 100 times smaller than bacteria) and can very easily find their way through many layers of filters when inhaling through fabric of most any type. To put it into terms most can relate to, it would be like keeping pollen dust from coming through a screen in an open window. Common dust masks or homemade bandana masks are even less beneficial to prevent the virus from spreading to other people and surfaces, but do help slow the airborne release of particles will settle on people or surfaces when coughing.

    On the trail, wearing a mask of any type is difficult if not highly impractical, breathing through a mask or cloth is difficult for one, sweat, fogging of glasses, and snags from low tree branches and brush make these difficult to keep properly positioned, once out of place one has to use their hands to adjust them, which typically will cause fingers (even gloved) from touching the face. This alone defeats the purpose of the mask.

    Then there is the decision of when to use it and for how long as you approach or move away from others on the trail. You may find yourself behind someone who is infected but not yet sick who is breathing hard as they work their way up the trail, you are following in the air they have just expelled, which microscopic droplets of air (think cold foggy days when you can actually see some of that breath) are released with virus in them and can linger in suspension for long periods of time. When do you put the mask on or take it off? What if there is a breeze carrying expelled breath from others, what footage should be used to trigger mask use? What do you do with a regular dusk mask or a bandana once you have been through this exhaled air by one or several people and you remove it from your face, touching the surfaces exposed to that air? Without proper disinfecting processes, that dust mask or bandana are now potentially covered with the virus you are trying to protect yourself against. Handling the mask to put it on for the next hiker contact sharply increases the likelihood of infection or worse, passing it to others without knowing you are inflicting illness on others.

    On washing of hands, the CDC advises:

    Wash your hands frequently
    Regularly and thoroughly clean your hands with an alcohol-based hand rub or wash them with soap and water.
    Why? Washing your hands with soap and water or using alcohol-based hand rub kills viruses that may be on your hands.


    Perhaps Europe has a different point of view and medical data that suggest hand washing is not a critical element in controlling the spread of disease, so I will be interested to see who is saying that, what qualifications they possess to say it, and in what context it is being said in.

    Overall, what makes the most sense is the practice of social isolation and sheltering in place to reduce contact with those carrying virus. For now, these are probably the best two methods people can use to best avoid illness. This puts hiking into the grey area of disease management, while the social distance element can be employed a lot, it is not always assured in narrow tread way foot bridges and other places where there is no place to step out of the way 6-foot or more.

    I don't mean to sound harsh in this, but we as a community need to be careful in promoting things that are clearly against published best practice and common sense. It's not about you personally, it's about the information and doing what we can to vet new information and adapt it for the activity that unites us.
    I couldn't have said it better. Social distancing and thorough hand washing are what the experts have repeated time and again as the best defenses against spreading the virus.

    Shelter in place/stay at home won't last forever, but it's our best bet for slowing the transmission of the virus. It's just simple math: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...ona-simulator/

    Please protect yourself, your family, and your community by staying home.

  20. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4eyedbuzzard View Post
    Except that at this point in time, we don't have enough masks for the medical professionals, nevermind the general public.
    Since this thread is about ethics, you have to ask yourself how ethical is it to be using masks that health care workers are in dire need of to protect themselves while trying to save lives. Wearing a mask is of dubious value in preventing the average person from getting coronavirus as has been stated by the CDC and others. Personally, I believe if you feel you need a mask you should make your own.
    If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.

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