Winter Camping in the Snow?

[Leo L.]

Great story, good that you used a camouflage tarp so neighbors won't see you and call you stupid...

[nsherry61]

27-29f all night, 6” of dry snow, wind in the teens. Gear worked great . . .

Thanks for sharing. Your picture brings back memories of an overnight snowshoe trip a did in 2013 screwing around with a $10 poly tarp and polycryo groundsheet.
tarp in snow.jpgunder tarp in snow.jpg

In thinking about your comments about condensation in the bivy and tarp icing, it sounds like it was moderate and completely manageable for an overnight. Where moisture in your sleep system can become an especially significant problem in the field is on multi-night trips where the moisture accumulates over time in and compromises your insulation. And, packing an iced up tarp, surely isn't the end of the world, but does again add weight and moisture to your system. I'm really glad you got to enjoy a comfortable night's sleep. It's an awesome confidence builder. If you didn't try it, you might be surprised at how comfortable you would have still been sleeping outside your bivy and with a more open tarp pitch. In the end, you gotta do what puts the biggest smile on your face and not let us on-line "trolls" tell you what that is.

[JPritch]

I read a post above that says CCF on top of inflatable is warmer than the other way. What's the logic behind that? I've done both in really cold weather, and granted those two nights were not identical so it's hard to compare exactly, but I was much warmer the night with my ccf on the bottom. I thought the ccf on the ground insulates the inflatable from the ground, and the inflatable being against your body has a chance to warm the air inside of it?

[nsherry61]

I read a post above that says CCF on top of inflatable is warmer than the other way. What's the logic behind that? I've done both . . . but I was much warmer the night with my ccf on the bottom. . .

There has been a fair bit of discussion on this topic on WB in the past. To be honest, I don't think we've ever come up with a definitive explanation as to why. There are all kinds of speculation as to why. But, those of us that have experimented and used combined CCF & inflatables fairly extensively almost all agree that is it quite noticeably warmer with the CCF on top. I would encourage anyone interested to try it both ways on any given night. When you wake up in the middle of the night, switch it around and see what you think. When it's not especially cold out, the difference isn't all that noticeable. But when you start pushing the gear it starts being significant. 10 to 15 degrees below 0 F, I can sleep quite manageably on my z-rest on top of either my Thermarest x-light or my Big Agnes (whatever model 3-season pad it is). If I switch around and put the z-rest on the bottom, I'm too cold to sleep. The difference is NOT subtle colder temps.

[Leo L.]

The one reason why the CCF on top should be warmer is, that the stiffness of the CCF will spread the point pressure of your body parts on a wider area of the inflatable and thus giving the inflatable less local compression (which is one of the biggest downsides of an inflatable - compressed areas, while providing comfort, give you little insulation).
If you blow up the inflatable as much as possible and its hard like a plank, the layering doesn't matter.
If there is any reflective stuff in the game, this has to go as close to the body as possible.

[cmoulder]

There has been a fair bit of discussion on this topic on WB in the past. To be honest, I don't think we've ever come up with a definitive explanation as to why. There are all kinds of speculation as to why. But, those of us that have experimented and used combined CCF & inflatables fairly extensively almost all agree that is it quite noticeably warmer with the CCF on top. I would encourage anyone interested to try it both ways on any given night. When you wake up in the middle of the night, switch it around and see what you think. When it's not especially cold out, the difference isn't all that noticeable. But when you start pushing the gear it starts being significant. 10 to 15 degrees below 0 F, I can sleep quite manageably on my z-rest on top of either my Thermarest x-light or my Big Agnes (whatever model 3-season pad it is). If I switch around and put the z-rest on the bottom, I'm too cold to sleep. The difference is NOT subtle colder temps.

My experience exactly. Single digit temps and lower, the difference is really stark.

I've stopped trying to figure it out scientifically because even the air mat designers and manufacturers can't explain it and sometimes offer the wrong advice. But I've done the very experiment nsherry61 suggests — sleeping directly on snow — and CCF on TOP is without question far superior.

Harriman10.jpg

[Alligator]

Late to the experiment and you survived comfortably good to see. I generally use a tarp 3 seasons but not during the winter. Mine's a flat tarp though and I like the design on the Warbonnet. Folks covered anchoring your tarp in actual snow so I won't mention that but I carry four of the y-shaped stakes (three sided) for better anchoring in windy conditions with my tarp. If it's not arctic I will use my pyramid tent instead of the tarp or my full blown winter tent. I use a bathtub shaped tyvek ground cloth inside. It is an option on my 'mid but I made mine myself. There are some loops on base of the 'mid to attach some toggles that are attached to the bathtub floor. Anyway that keeps the wind down and the elements from blowing under the walls. I tried polycro with the tarp and didn't like fussing with it. I also use a quilt, again 3 seasons as it is not designed as warm as the one you have. I find that around 20F, there are qualities of a sleeping bag that a quilt just doesn't have like baffles on the zipper that eliminate drafts, the hood, and to me the I very much appreciate a chest baffle since I am a stomach sleeper.

The weak point in your system is anchoring the tarp in the snow. If you don't get that anchored proper you will be in for a rough night or worse. So practice anchoring in snow and frozen ground. You could also tie down to some vegetation. Practice pitching it with your poles. Realize the system you are using IMO has a smaller margin of error than other winter systems. How might you handle 10-15 degrees colder with the same system? Practice all around livability like cooking and holing up in camp inside it.

[needlefish]

I read a post above that says CCF on top of inflatable is warmer than the other way. What's the logic behind that? I've done both in really cold weather, and granted those two nights were not identical so it's hard to compare exactly, but I was much warmer the night with my ccf on the bottom. I thought the ccf on the ground insulates the inflatable from the ground, and the inflatable being against your body has a chance to warm the air inside of it?

I always thought the higher insulated pad goes closer to your body.