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Thread: Bread Crumbs

  1. #41
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    @Alligator:
    My wife told me that we have those bread bag clips here in Europe, too.

    While I understand the basic idea to have something simple to fint the way back to the trail, I don't like the idea to use something cheap and tiny. It may not be a far shot that it might happen another hiker used the same thing and left one behind, so you might be misguided. What leaves to the other concern, something cheap and tiny might all-too-easily be just left behind.
    What about using your tent stakes, hanging two or three from the branches on your way off the trail?
    This would be easier to spot on the way back due to their size, and you sure will collect them no matter what.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alligator View Post
    A compass isn't necessarily a better option really. Suppose you take 60 steps one direction, there's too many rocks, you go another direction 30 steps because you have to and there are bushes and then you find a spot about 10 paces over. At this point you really have to go, you nearly pop a blood vessel from eating too many peanuts and all you remember is was it 30 steps or 30 degrees?

    This could be a short-term memory issue for some, whether age or disability even.

    A GPS in rugged terrain may be off quite substantially. If that causes you to misidentify a geographic feature for instance, you might wander around in the wrong spot for a while.

    Leo L I believe these plastic items are called "bread clips". One story commonly cited for using breadcrumbs is Hansel and Gretel, but the modern/translated versions differ from the original stories told by the Brothers Grimm to differing degrees.

    Teacher I would suggest numbering these with a sharpie and perhaps strictly using a set pacing distance between placement.

    Flagging tape is biodegradable and lightweight if you don't carry the whole roll. Longer length and better colors. If you somehow lost your last point, somebody would spot the flagging right quick if you were lost. Anybody working in the woods who spots flagging their first thought is "I wonder what that flagging is for?"
    Thank you Alligator....you've explained my reticence to GPS and compass solutions much more clearly than I might have. Yes, memory is a big issue here also. I like the idea of numbering the clips, and 10 feet or so is my placement distance, but of course that depends on the density of the forest/brush. I always make sure I can see the one behind me before moving on.
    "Maybe life isn't about avoiding the bruises. Maybe it's about collecting the scars to prove we showed up for it."

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo L. View Post
    @Alligator:
    My wife told me that we have those bread bag clips here in Europe, too.

    While I understand the basic idea to have something simple to fint the way back to the trail, I don't like the idea to use something cheap and tiny. It may not be a far shot that it might happen another hiker used the same thing and left one behind, so you might be misguided. What leaves to the other concern, something cheap and tiny might all-too-easily be just left behind.
    What about using your tent stakes, hanging two or three from the branches on your way off the trail?
    This would be easier to spot on the way back due to their size, and you sure will collect them no matter what.
    Honestly, professionals use flagging. For instance, when their lives depend on it, escape route flagging. Lots of other varieties.

    Not that it's a bad idea to use the clips, but they are on the small size.
    "Sleepy alligator in the noonday sun
    Sleepin by the river just like he usually done
    Call for his whisky
    He can call for his tea
    Call all he wanta but he can't call me..."
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  4. #44

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    If you can read this you are too close.
    "Sleepy alligator in the noonday sun
    Sleepin by the river just like he usually done
    Call for his whisky
    He can call for his tea
    Call all he wanta but he can't call me..."
    Robert Hunter & Ron McKernan

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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alligator View Post
    Honestly, professionals use flagging. For instance, when their lives depend on it, escape route flagging. Lots of other varieties.
    ...
    We have similar flags or ribbons here in the forests everywhere, nobody really knows who put it there and for what purpose.
    Best guess is, it was once placed by a logger who wanted to make clear which trees to fell (or to keep?) and just forgot and left it forever.
    Another guess is, it had been a hunter who marked a kill site.
    Whatever - I just dislike all this plastic in the forest.

  6. #46
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    For what it's worth, whenever I have used flagging to mark my way back, I always collect it. There's certainly no need to leave it.
    fortis fortuna adjuvat

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo L. View Post
    We have similar flags or ribbons here in the forests everywhere, nobody really knows who put it there and for what purpose.
    Best guess is, it was once placed by a logger who wanted to make clear which trees to fell (or to keep?) and just forgot and left it forever.
    Another guess is, it had been a hunter who marked a kill site.
    Whatever - I just dislike all this plastic in the forest.
    Professionals use it responsibly. Whether other uses are appropriate or necessary is not really the subject of the thread. It would be a simple matter to collect this as one leaves and would be in line with leave no trace. If someone is super concerned about plastic (even biodegradable) they could cut up a blaze orange bandana or shirt to make strips.
    "Sleepy alligator in the noonday sun
    Sleepin by the river just like he usually done
    Call for his whisky
    He can call for his tea
    Call all he wanta but he can't call me..."
    Robert Hunter & Ron McKernan

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  8. #48
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    Thank you, creative Whiteblazers. I, too, find my original heading often needs adjusting once leaving the trail, and needed more than a compass heading. Something quick to deploy and retrieve. Seems like a few flagging tapes attached with bread clips is the answer!

  9. #49

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    I like compasses and flagging,also reflective tape for night time.If you depart a trail Eastbound,no matter how much twisting and turning you do after that the reciprocal heading of WEST will bring you back to the trail.The problem is whether or not you might unwittingly cross the trail without realizing it so having a little flagging in spots helps.Also like the numbering idea for the flags/bread crumbs.Counting steps or at least keeping time goes a long way in helping to not get lost.

    But at night,Nothing beats reflective tape and a good light.I keep reflective tape on my hiking poles and stake one at my tarp and then take the other for a nature call.With a good light it's amazing how far you can see that hiking pole like a beacon in the night......ditto,for tape on a food bag........

  10. #50

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    Suppose the trail makes a turn like above Five Tango. If you go east but also north from the original trail position (the corner) you wouldn't be guaranteed recrossing the trail by heading west. Eventually you should but that might be quite far away. It might be potentially blocked even or locally the trail may run east west .
    "Sleepy alligator in the noonday sun
    Sleepin by the river just like he usually done
    Call for his whisky
    He can call for his tea
    Call all he wanta but he can't call me..."
    Robert Hunter & Ron McKernan

    Whiteblaze.net User Agreement.

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alligator View Post
    _
    . |
    . |

    Suppose the trail makes a turn like above Five Tango. If you go east but also north from the original trail position (the corner) you wouldn't be guaranteed recrossing the trail by heading west. Eventually you should but that might be quite far away. It might be potentially blocked even or locally the trail may run east west .

    That's why I always carry some flagging.Remember,we are just looking to go 200 feet off trail in the first place.
    Not getting out of sight of a known point,like your flagging or a bandanna tied to a bush etc,means you should be able to find the Exact spot you left the trail.If not,the compass provides you a means to travel a straight line until you "hit" something like a stream or road that will at least take you somewhere.

  12. #52

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    Having used flagging tape for years to mark bushwhacking routes with the last person picking them up or picking them up on my return and the occasional needs of nature in unfamiliar forests, I never thought of bag clips, they sound like a pretty good idea. Alligator's example being a reminder trails do not necessarily continue on a given compass direction, presumption of a trail direction has led many to a frightening moment.

    Clips would be easier than flagging tape to carry, use, and collect once done with the activity. When set up properly so one has to go directly to the next clip to see the next until the trail or campsite is rejoined, collection should not be an issue. Even if one is missed, given their size, they are fairly unobtrusive unlike flagging tape.

  13. #53
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    When I have to do my business in the forest, I always make sure I have eye contact with the trail. Safety surpasses modesty. also, I always go to the higher elevation. People tend to pay more attention to the decline side than the incline. Saying that, I never hiked (yet) north of Hanover, NH. Inchworm got lost on the 100 miles wilderness. According to the gentleman who wrote the book about her (very well written, BTW), the forest can be so thick, that one can get lost just by stepping a few feet off the trail.

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    Again, for those carrying a smartphone:
    Would it be OK if one had an app like Backcountry Navigator running (without tracking active, so almost zero battery usage - and on my hikes I have it exactly this way) and simply press the one button to set a waypoint when leaving the trail?
    Nothing easier than to find the way back to this set point a few minutes later.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo L. View Post
    Again, for those carrying a smartphone:
    Would it be OK if one had an app like Backcountry Navigator running (without tracking active, so almost zero battery usage - and on my hikes I have it exactly this way) and simply press the one button to set a waypoint when leaving the trail?
    Nothing easier than to find the way back to this set point a few minutes later.
    Yup, no need for anything else, no need on most hikes to even set a waypoint, as the trail is clearly visible on whatever app you're using (in most cases) and your position is a nice comforting little blue dot.

    I've never been anywhere on earth where my phone did get a strong GPS signal except in deep slot canyons. BUT, I sure like having my little 0.2 oz button-compass just-in-case.

    It really is easy though to "get lost" stepping a hundred yards (~meters) off trail for a poop, so I do get the bread-crumb-tie thing, but I've personally just relied on my eyesight and memory with my phone app as a backup.

  16. #56
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    OK, 100 meter is quite a distance and if the dump made you dizzy you could get disorientated.
    But then, I'm quite regular on this business and select my breakfast&coffee point exactly with this specific second use in mind, so I just had to learn here on WB that this topic can even be an issue.

    On my more recent hikes I used to carry two reflective velcro ribbons to wear for safety when road walking in the dark, so I could imagine to use these as sort of bread crumb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by colorado_rob View Post
    Yup, no need for anything else, no need on most hikes to even set a waypoint, as the trail is clearly visible on whatever app you're using (in most cases) and your position is a nice comforting little blue dot.

    I've never been anywhere on earth where my phone did get a strong GPS signal except in deep slot canyons. BUT, I sure like having my little 0.2 oz button-compass just-in-case.

    It really is easy though to "get lost" stepping a hundred yards (~meters) off trail for a poop, so I do get the bread-crumb-tie thing, but I've personally just relied on my eyesight and memory with my phone app as a backup.
    This is pretty much how I go about things, although I have reverted to the app only a couple of times the past few years but only for a bit of cross-country bushwhacking to make a shortcut thru the woods. The little button compass has been used a few times on those milky overcast days as a 'sanity check' when the sky is a monochrome overcast and it's literally impossible to tell which way is east or west by sun position and time of day... (and also time of year and latitude). The last time I walked the wrong way was on the Cranberry lake loop in the Adirondacks, for about a couple of miles. I came across a junction and literally could not believe I had done this until I looked at the log book which I had signed the previous evening on the way to Olmstead Pond.

    I like Harold Gatty's book "Finding your way without map or compass" which uses a lot of natural clues to indicate direction, and details the handrail method (among many others) for navigating. I actually used the handrail method one time when I lost my camp on Giant Ledge in the Catskills. I had strolled over to the eastern side to watch the sunset — carrying no compass or GPS or phone, although I did have a headlamp — and did not notice that heavy fog was moving in. Well in no time flat it was thoroughly socked in, and I wandered around quite frustrated for a while trying to find my camp before I thought of using the technique. So I figured a general direction for east/west based upon tree moss and walked east to the edge of the ledge, made a 90° right turn to walk south for a while, another 90° turn to the west took me to the western edge, and another 90° north turn in due time had me stumbling across my camp in the fog and dark.

  18. #58
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    I wonder how animals navigate in the woods without getting lost. Many have pretty small territories. For example, I read that chipmunks rarely venture more than 1/3 of a mile from their homes. I imagine a chipmunk would become very familiar with each tree, bush, rock, and log within a certain radius, and maybe somewhat familiar with several paths that venture outside that radius. If a chipmunk were trapped and then released in a new territory, how well would it be able to adapt? Would it exhaust itself in frantic futile attempts to find home? Would it crawl into the first hole it found and establish a new home? What does "lost" mean to a chipmunk?

    I read that deer, on the other hand, have a home territory that may range from 40 acres to 1000 acres depending on season, availability of food, whether it's a buck or a doe with young. A deer wouldn't become familiar with every hole in the ground like a chipmunk would. How does a deer learn the boundaries of its territory and where the trails are in relation to the food sources? What does "lost" mean to a deer?

    If the forest animals are able to navigate in the woods, why is it so easy for us to become disoriented? Are we so lost in our thoughts that we can't see the texture of the vegetation? Are we so so foreign to the forest environment that we can't feel the shape of a clearing, the subtle change in slope, the predominant direction of the breeze?

    In no way am I suggesting that the bread crumb concept (or GPS, or compass, or trekking pole, etc) is inappropriate. I'm just wondering why intelligent creatures like humans have such vulnerability to being lost in the woods when it appears that the lesser creatures handle it just fine.

  19. #59

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    GPS is not as accurate as you think, particularly in rough terrain which I said. I will give you a better example. Turn on the location data for your phone. Put your phone down in your house and turn off wifi access on your phone and let it sit there for a number of hours. Then go to google maps and look at your location information in your gmail account or do the find my phone option. I've done this a number of times looking for a family member's or my lost phone. There will be points across the street, in neighbor's houses on both sides, in the backyard etc. The best I can usually say is at least the phone is in the house or in the car in the driveway or in the yard. Shoot you could try it in the woods too if you like you would just need to leave your phone on for a while so watch the battery. You may get a signal and a point but that doesn't mean it is right where you actually are. Ever had your phone's map put your car on the wrong street?

    Plus that trail map you are referring to on your GPS, that more than likely comes from a regular map with its own accuracy standard. So 90% of "well-defined points" must be within the stated tolerance. The other 10% can be grossly off. There's a lot of uncertainty involved with geographic information.
    "Sleepy alligator in the noonday sun
    Sleepin by the river just like he usually done
    Call for his whisky
    He can call for his tea
    Call all he wanta but he can't call me..."
    Robert Hunter & Ron McKernan

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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by illabelle View Post
    ...
    I'm just wondering why intelligent creatures like humans have such vulnerability to being lost in the woods when it appears that the lesser creatures handle it just fine.
    Guess we humans are too intelligent, always busying our brain with useless highend stuff while not taking care of the most fundamental tasks at hand.

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