Is Stoveless a safety issue

[Big_Old_Dog]

As a kid playing hockey on the ponds, one of the times I fell in, it was 15-20F. I was up to my neck. Tommy pulled me out. The older guys made me keep skating round and round. I was shivering so hard, I could barely skate. Soon, my jeans and jacket were frozen solid. Perfect to play goalie. I stayed and played.

I decided to upgrade my base layers. I have yak and alpaca coming. Should be fun to see which is better.

[d.o.c]

you should carry a stove warm food and drink is better than not having it for just a few ounces .. or just carry the cook pot and make a fire as needed i did that on my second thru hike but i personally preferred warm meals and tea/coffee durrimg my hike... up to you.. do not be uncomfortable over food and drink!

[cmoulder]

Do you use a BGET?

I did in the past but for a few years now I've used the Esbit Tri-Wing, so I don't need a separate pot stand and I find it quite stable. I use it pretty much exclusively with the Toaks 550 and a Ti foil windscreen.

[cmoulder]

We offer the Multi-Fuel Stove (formerly ISO-Clean) that was designed to burn isopropyl alcohol) without generating soot. It will also burn other fuels such as dentaured alcohol, gels, Sterno and Esbit. Best regards.
Here it a video of our latest revision - https://youtu.be/Niw-TCoCaHA

lol fun video! Now THAT's multi-fuel!

[garlic08]

As a kid playing hockey on the ponds, one of the times I fell in, it was 15-20F. I was up to my neck. Tommy pulled me out. The older guys made me keep skating round and round. I was shivering so hard, I could barely skate. Soon, my jeans and jacket were frozen solid. Perfect to play goalie. I stayed and played.

Great story. I grew up with older brothers like that, made sure you didn't get soft. We used to play hockey on a lake in Wisconsin. We'd build a fire right on the ice.

[George]

For these kinds of decisions I use an old bromide, "If there's a doubt, there is no doubt".

To help make your decision, here's a common scenario most everyone who does this runs into in some form or another:

A weather front stalls and sets up a multiple day rain, taking normal temperatures of 80 degrees into the 50 degree range with a 20 mph wind. Windchill drives temps into the low 40s/high 30s. Horizontal wind driven rain finds every entry point in rain gear as you walk to the planned campsite. Rain eases and fog/mist develops that is carried on the wind, permeating most any remaining dry clothing you are wearing. The ground is saturated, every rock and root a potential slip, your pace slows, you start to feel colder, decisions start to get a little difficult as hypothermia tests you and stage 1 begins. Daylight fades out before you reach the planned camping area and you have to make camp in the dark just as the heavy wind driven rain starts up again soaking you further, along with everything as it comes out of the pack. Your struggle with the tent in heavy rain and wind is maddening, you get impatient with things, you leave the pack uncovered because you are rushing and wind opens it to the weather. You manage to get the tent set up after a while but most all of your gear is now soaking wet. You are beyond wet and starting to shiver and you do not have a beanie hat to slow the immense heat loss from your head draining your body of heat and energy. Not much of a chance to get a fire going given conditions, so you close the tent and try to bundle up in wet clothing to warm as best you can but it doesn't happen, shivering becomes more intense. You have some cold water to drink but water has gotten into your snacks and food. You are leaving stage 1 hypothermia and entering stage 2.

Do you think something hot to drink would help right now?

this reminds me of a prairie home companion monologue - the answer at the end would be isn't this a good time for rhubarb pie

[George]

In a true emergency, I cannot think of a reason to not just build a fire to warm up. .

uhh, other than the conditions that lead to an "emergency" also make starting a fire unlikely

[George]

Nice, when I carry a stove, I use pure methanol that I get free at work, but you can't drink it

hiked with a chemical engineer - he was very adamant about the risks of using any methanol containing stove fuel, inhalation not just ingestion can cause brain damage etc........ does this explain some of what you have been posting?

[George]

I am planning NOBO start in late April/Early May from Springer..

most of the compelling arguments that a lack of stove could be considered less safe would be negated by your late start date

[Big_Old_Dog]

most of the compelling arguments that a lack of stove could be considered less safe would be negated by your late start date

Thanks. The start date is certainly a key part of the analysis and I said somewhere starting earlier would be a different story.

Thru my analysis, I looked at how much a "cold" human body would be warmed by 150 degree F liter of water. Not much. Maybe half of a degree.

Shivering consumes 400-800 calories per hour. It is very possible to run out of energy (glucose and glycogen) unless someone is very, very adapt at burning fat (enzymes and higher aerobic capacity). Anyway. The human body has a gross efficiency of 20-22%. So, 78-80% of this shivering energy goes into heat. I did make a calculation of how much energy and how much time it would take to warm from 92F (mild hypo) but did not share it and now forget the numbers. My conclusion was getting dry, into a shelter (tent, bag) with constantly nibbling food to maintain blood sugar levels is far more important to recovery than having a warm drink and there is research showing that a warm drink is counterproductive as the thermoreceptors in the gut shut down shivering for 10-20 minutes after the hot beverage hits. It would also argue to never let your glycogen stores to drop during the day. How? Maintain a slower pace especially ascending and constantly eat. Shivering is unmistakable and the sign to immediately take action. It is sort of like when you get a hot spot on your foot, you don't wait until getting to camp to address it.

As a result of the comments, I did give more thought to my old base layers to replace. I got some Yak bottoms and tops. Very warm but definitely not itch free. I can wear merino with no itching and I can tolerate the Yak (hollow fiber, warmer than merino, better with controlling evaporative losses). I'll see how the alpaca stuff goes when it arrives. I can't stand synthetics due to the stench after 3-4 days and the stink never seems to come out of the clothing.

[CalebJ]

I can't stand synthetics due to the stench after 3-4 days and the stink never seems to come out of the clothing.

Quick tangent on that topic - have you tried the laundry soaps that are designed for synthetic fabrics? They really do work far better at exactly what you're describing.

[Big_Old_Dog]

Quick tangent on that topic - have you tried the laundry soaps that are designed for synthetic fabrics? They really do work far better at exactly what you're describing.

Kind of hard to do that on trail? Are you talking about strong detergents? Nikiwas baseclean? Something else?

Synthetics stink on me after one day and after 3 days, I can't stand the odor. How often can one launder their baselayer on trail? Weekly? That would me 5-6 days of gross and 1-2 days of fresh. I find the difference worth the extra weight over synthetics.

[garlic08]

...It would also argue to never let your glycogen stores to drop during the day....

And this is pretty much the solution to most of life's problems (beside rhubarb pie). The best way to get warm is to never get cold to begin with.

And don't forget hydration. I've found it's more difficult to stop and get water in hypothermia weather than it is to stop and eat. If you plan it right and keep the right snacks in your pockets, you don't even have to stop to eat. But stopping to fill a water bottle from a cold stream when it's raining and you're near freezing is tough.

[CalebJ]

Kind of hard to do that on trail? Are you talking about strong detergents? Nikiwas baseclean? Something else?

Synthetics stink on me after one day and after 3 days, I can't stand the odor. How often can one launder their baselayer on trail? Weekly? That would me 5-6 days of gross and 1-2 days of fresh. I find the difference worth the extra weight over synthetics.

It was more a general comment on dealing with synthetic fabrics rather than specific to through hiking. If I use traditional laundry detergent then they'll smell clean after washing, but within a few minutes of becoming active again, it's like all the smell is suddenly released again. With one of the detergents designed for synthetic rather than natural fibers, they seem to actually come clean and not stink up quickly each time. Here's what I use (but there are plenty of options out there):
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008D2AW14/

As to dealing with it during a thru hike, I don't have any sage advice.

[AsoloBootsSuk]

hiked with a chemical engineer - he was very adamant about the risks of using any methanol containing stove fuel, inhalation not just ingestion can cause brain damage etc........ does this explain some of what you have been posting?

Ouch, you got me good!

[AsoloBootsSuk]

hiked with a chemical engineer - he was very adamant about the risks of using any methanol containing stove fuel, inhalation not just ingestion can cause brain damage etc........ does this explain some of what you have been posting?

George are you saying you agree with your engineer friend that methanol should not be used in a stove?

[Alligator]

And this is pretty much the solution to most of life's problems (beside rhubarb pie). The best way to get warm is to never get cold to begin with.

And don't forget hydration. I've found it's more difficult to stop and get water in hypothermia weather than it is to stop and eat. If you plan it right and keep the right snacks in your pockets, you don't even have to stop to eat. But stopping to fill a water bottle from a cold stream when it's raining and you're near freezing is tough.

Yes. Regularly spaced calories are very important to keeping warm. I don't use them as much as I used to but I used to carry a few Gu shots for a quick pick up if needed. I also just carry my day's hiking water in the winter as I will boil a liter and add 2 and stick that in an insulated pocket I made for my water bladder. It being cold becomes an excuse not to stop and get water that you might need, particularly if you don't seem thirsty.

[nsherry61]

. . . Thru my analysis, I looked at how much a "cold" human body would be warmed by 150 degree F liter of water. Not much. Maybe half of a degree. . .

I didn't comment on this the last time you were suggesting it. I think you have a good point, in that the heat from a warm beverage shouldn't be taken as the great panacea for hypothermia that it often comes across as.

BUT, it may also be worth considering that warming your core from within doesn't have to heat your whole body, only about 1/2 of it? So maybe that 1/2 degree becomes one degree.

Secondly, the heat being poured into ones core with warm beverage is an immediate warming whereas digesting calories and heat from the outside take time to raise core temperature.

So, I wouldn't be too quick to discount the value of that degree of immediate warmth from a warm drink. BUT, included with that warm drink needs to be reduced heat loss from exposure and significant food calories to enable longer term warming from the inside.

[cmoulder]

Kind of hard to do that on trail? Are you talking about strong detergents? Nikiwas baseclean? Something else?

Synthetics stink on me after one day and after 3 days, I can't stand the odor. How often can one launder their baselayer on trail? Weekly? That would me 5-6 days of gross and 1-2 days of fresh. I find the difference worth the extra weight over synthetics.

You can carry a 2-gallon ziploc, add clothes/water/detergent and get a fairly decent wash.

One thing about merino, relating to the hypothermia issue, is that for me it dries much slower than synthetics. I noticed this when I bought a very expensive Icebreaker T shirt, and also the fact that it wore out in no time flat. Maybe there are better options but that one expensive experiment soured me on the whole concept.

[nsherry61]

. . . I don't use them as much as I used to but I used to carry a few Gu shots for a quick pick up if needed. . .

Without a doubt, the most used part of my first-aid kit is the packet of hammer gel (not Gu) that I keep in their. The stories I can tell about what a little of the right mix of maltodextrin can do to uplift a failing body is extraordinary!

FWIW: I noted using Hammer Gel instead of Gu as the Hammer Gel has a significantly faster digesting mix of carbs. Whereas Gu provides a reliable and steady release of sugar into ones bloodstream and avoids a post-sugar crash, Hammer Gel has a different maltodextrin mix that provides significantly more rapidly digestible carbs and provides a significantly faster input of sugar into your bloodstream. For "crash recovery" there is no comparison and Hammer Gel (as the name implies) is the clear winter!

Ask me how I know this, other than marketing hype which doesn't really say this? My son is a type-1 diabetic so we can measure his body's response to different carbohydrate sources with his blood glucose meter. Hammer works great for glucose recovery, whereas Gu makes no measurable difference at all (at least in the first 20 minutes).