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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alligator View Post
    False equivalency. It's got nothing to do with whether they are safe in outdoor recreation. It's whether it is safe indoors to do so and permitted by the property owner. . .
    No it is NOT! You infer that it is safe enough to use these stoves outdoors. Then, you turn around and suggest that, regardless of how safe it is (or not) using them indoors is not safe and therefore they should not be used there. You are presenting a complete double-standard with not actual data to back up your claims. AND, all the anecdotal evidence I am aware of suggests that many more people and many more dollars in property have been destroyed by wildfires started by camping stoves than have motels or people in them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alligator View Post
    The manufacturers say not to use them indoors.
    Pocketrocket
    Jetboil
    Do you have any understanding of combustible fuels and their differences and associated dangers? Butane and propane (like used in cartridge camping stoves) are regularly used for indoor cooking. Yes, they are open flames, as is the stovetop I cook on in my house every day. They have the ability to generate carbon monoxide associated with incomplete combustion, as do all open flames from my gas fired fireplace, to my hot water heater, to my oven, to my cooktop. Geez, must I go on. Manufactures putting safety labels on their products have little to do with reality, as the tag you have probably left on the bottom of your mattress may attest to. Most motels don't allow candles either, many others do. Why aren't we arguing about the dangers of candles while we're at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alligator View Post
    Here's a hotel not far from the trail saying no cooking per fire code. Lots of hotels state outright no cooking in rooms.
    I will not argue against being courteous and therefore choosing to obey hotel rules. That's great. I would appreciate it as a hotel operator. But, don't go telling me that just because there is a sign saying not to do something, that therefore it is dangerous, and I should therefore not do that same something!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alligator View Post
    I can't help you that you don't understand that placing a tippy open flame source into a room with no design space to safely operate it is unsafe. . . It's not whether this is regulated, it's just common sense.
    And again, if that is your argument, you sure as heck should not be using these stoves in the wilderness where there is not designed space for their use either! Do you not see the complete absurdity of your stance on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by gpburdelljr View Post
    Ask it it is allowed when checking in. If they say no, donít do it. Itís common curtesy.
    Now, that is common sense and common curtesy. I agree. The safety arguments, in contrast, are complete fabrications to justify following rules that are profoundly inconsistent from one setting to the next.
    I'm not lost. I'm exploring.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    . . . Here is some info, but it only speaks to fire statistics ó not to who has the right to act upon their interpretation of them.
    https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/...tics/v19i4.pdf
    Thank you!

    There is also this: https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/f...tics-wildfires

    The comparison isn't even close. That being said, the logical conclusion for many would be to outlaw all campfires and outdoor cooking. I would suggest there is much, much more justification for outlawing campfires than there is to outlawing cooking stoves in motels. Who's right is it to make such rules? Alligator, I assume you would support such bans?
    I'm not lost. I'm exploring.

  3. #43
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    I've seen many thru hikers using their stoves in the parking lots of the motels.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by nsherry61 View Post
    Thank you!

    There is also this: https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/f...tics-wildfires

    The comparison isn't even close. That being said, the logical conclusion for many would be to outlaw all campfires and outdoor cooking. I would suggest there is much, much more justification for outlawing campfires than there is to outlawing cooking stoves in motels. Who's right is it to make such rules? Alligator, I assume you would support such bans?
    You seem to have stuck in your head that because backpacking stoves can be used outdoors, they can be used indoors. False equivalency. Authorities recognize that travelers in the outdoors require a cooking stove, and their use is generally permitted. Just because the park service says a stove is ok to use outside has ABSOLUTELY no bearing on what the town fire marshal may deem safe for indoor use. NONE. When we need to use stoves indoors, they are appropriately designed for indoor use. It's kind of hard to tip over a kitchen stove by accident, particularly if the back mount for child safety is installed. Your other indoor appliances, also designed for indoor use as well as having quite often, extensively considered building codes for use. It is often the case with building code that if the manufacturer places restrictions on an appliance those restrictions need to be honored, like a dedicated circuit called for by the manufacturer but it is not code. The manufacturers of those stoves say not to use inside. The logical conclusion is that if you need to use a stove indoors to use an indoor stove not an outdoors stove in an indoor space that is not designed for its use. A major aim of building code is to prevent fires and a hotel room is not designed for an outdoor stove.

    I'm telling you if the hotel operator does not permit something, that's their right up to their rights under the law to refuse you service and the use of their property. Don't like the sign, your right is to choose another hotel. You definitely appear to have a problem with being told what you can and can't do. Tough cookies. No dogs allowed in the hotel, no dogs. No smoking, smoke outside. Checkout is 11, checkout at 11 or they can charge you for another day. No cooking, no cooking. Go sleep in your car with your self-entitled attitude.
    "Sleepy alligator in the noonday sun
    Sleepin by the river just like he usually done
    Call for his whisky
    He can call for his tea
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  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchild View Post
    I've seen many thru hikers using their stoves in the parking lots of the motels.
    I took my stove on a long bus trip to Texas once. I cooked in a lot near the bus station, not on the bus.
    "Sleepy alligator in the noonday sun
    Sleepin by the river just like he usually done
    Call for his whisky
    He can call for his tea
    Call all he wanta but he can't call me..."
    Robert Hunter & Ron McKernan

    Whiteblaze.net User Agreement.

  6. #46
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    I can't believe this has become 3 page debate...

    For me it's a no-brainer; go burn right outside.

    Arguing personal responsibility, owner wishes, regulations, wildfires vs structure fires is not addressing OP. Do what feels ok for you and hope for no negative consequences.

    Words like lazy, irresponsible, prohibited only matter if you let them.

  7. #47
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    I challenge anyone, anywhere to ask about this to the proprietor and get his opinion.

  8. #48

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    I agree this thread got a bit out of control so here's my last contribution to it: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". In YOUR motel/hostel/hotel, would you want your guests use open flame in the rooms? If not, do not do it. Period.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durwood View Post
    I can't believe this has become 3 page debate...
    Oh how I miss the good old days.

    Three pages used to be just a warm up.

    And missing the anticipation of seeing Jack Tarlin weigh in to a thread like this.

    Good memories there.

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by nsherry61 View Post
    Yes! and Yes!

    We all put a lot more people and property in danger cooking in the woods and risking massive wildfires than we do cooking in a hotel room.
    Just on the face of it people wise this is illogical. Most of us go out into the woods precisely because there are fewer people there. And Iíd posit that more of the people who are out in the woods have the self awareness to extract themselves from the fire danger.

    Now as for property you have to do some math. A very quick web search told me an average economy hotel has 75 rooms of 330 sq ft. So 24,750 sq feet. Iíll assume that is 2/3ís of the total building, for total square footage of 37,125. From what I could gather the average construction costs are about $168/sq foot. So construction costs of $6,237,000. Furnishing costs for a hotel are about $10,000 for a mid price establishment , so I will guess $5,000 for our economy joint, for an additional $375k. So the hotel is worth $6,612,000.

    An average acre of >15 yr old non-plantation pine sold for $2,035/acre, in 2019.

    So the average wildfire would need to be 3,249 acres to risk the same property as an average economy hotel.

    Even in 2020 with all the big West coast fires, the average size of the 57,000 wildfires was 181 acres.

    So a stove accident in the woods only puts at risk about 5.5% of the property that a hotel fire does.

    You sound like an experienced outdoorsman from Alaska, but your line of reasoning about risks assessment is deeply flawed in this argument.

    Now perhaps there are 18 canister stove caused wildfires for every canister stove motel fire. But that would still ignore the what seems to be far greater likelihood of human tragedy.

    As for signs, sure I ignore some speed limit ones. But I do obey the eight sided red ones. For my own sake and that of others.

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    Oh how I miss the good old days.

    Three pages used to be just a warm up.

    And missing the anticipation of seeing Jack Tarlin weigh in to a thread like this.

    Good memories there.
    Trying to do my part

  12. #52
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    Reminds me of a time I visited my very moral and Christian brother. Excusing myself to shower I climbed onto the toilet and smoked something with odor, blowing into the vent fan. Showered, stepped out and everyone in apartment is scrambling and exclaiming, "There's a fire. We smell smoke!".

    My wife was sitting calmly with her arms crossed and shaking her head.

    Point being: if you need to hide in bathroom and run the fan it may not be cool.

    There...keeping the thread going. You're welcome OP. Never told that story.

  13. #53

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    As for signs, sure I ignore some speed limit ones. But I do obey the eight sided red ones. For my own sake and that of others.


    So there's sometimes sort of a 'grey area'?

    According to some folks here, you don't get to pick and choose which rules you observe and which you ignore. Some (not I) would argue that exceeding legal speed limits also endangers other people's lives.
    UL, because nobody ever asks "How can I make my pack heavier?"

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durwood View Post
    I challenge anyone, anywhere to ask about this to the proprietor and get his opinion.
    This is probably the best ending of the paragraph. Ask at check in if the hotel minds if you use a butane stove in the room and respect their response.

  15. #55
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    I’d be interested in knowing if any motel owner anywhere would say, “yeah, sure, you can use your stove inside your room” when asked.

  16. #56

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    .
    .......I climbed onto the toilet and smoked something with odor,
    Something with odor?

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee View Post
    I’d be interested in knowing if any motel owner anywhere would say, “yeah, sure, you can use your stove inside your room” when asked.
    And create all kinds of odors ?

    Only you can prevent forest fires ,only you can prevent hotel fires!!
    This is a very serious subject I know I've been on fire! 2nd and third degree burns on 80% of my face. Young and dumb and full of rum 17 and doing flaming shots ! The point is this is about a most painful injury a person could encounter.
    I think I've done it once and afterall this would I do it again giving the circumstances, don't tell anyone but probably.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    So there's sometimes sort of a 'grey area'?

    According to some folks here, you don't get to pick and choose which rules you observe and which you ignore. Some (not I) would argue that exceeding legal speed limits also endangers other people's lives.
    [/COLOR]
    Sure. But just because some rules are silly doesn’t mean they all are.

  19. #59

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    I tell ya, there is one place you definitely would not dare use a stove, that's a room in the Doyle. That place is a fire trap waiting to happen. Quite amazing it hasn't happened yet!

    A motel in Pearisburg frequented by hikers burnt down, but that was probably a meth lab deal.

    I stayed at a motel with a buddy hiking the LT off season. We were the only ones there. I talked the owner into taking us into town for dinner by telling him otherwise we'd have to fire up our white gas camp stove in the bath tube to eat. So, we all went out for dinner
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  20. #60

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    This thread has taught me that I probably should avoid motels frequented by hikers.

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