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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Majortrauma View Post
    I'm surprised alligator let it go on this long
    slo-go-en is still wrong but I'm going to just leave it at that.
    His opinion is in the minority. The ATC is being savagely (and justifiably) ridiculed on a number of hiker forums and youtube channels this NOBO season by people expressing opinions very similar to blackclouds and mine.
    Popularity of opinion does not make it correct. The ATC acted responsibly in a litigious society, following the NPS directives closing structures on lands not managed by the NPS and suspending programs that would encourage people to act as if nothing was happening and ignore CDC guidelines. That certificates are not available for the past year is a minor inconvenience, unless the point of completing the trail is for the paper saying you did it and not the experience of it, which I gather is all some people are after when it all boils down.

  2. #22
    Is it raining yet?
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    A land management agency doesn't get to tell people what to do or not do b/c it is bad for the people. It's called LAND management, not PEOPLE management.

    So the NPS or ATC or CDC has the power to ban the use of alcohol or cigarettes or soda b/c they are bad for your health? This is precisely the nanny state thinking Mayor Bloomberg introduced in NYC. What if some study finds that hiking with heart disease risks a heart attack? The ATC going to ban people with heart disease from the trail? That is NOT what government in a free society is about.

    There is no data or evidence of any kind that recreating in the outdoors spread the virus, no matter how many times some of you try to find some one to blame.
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    Be Prepared

  3. #23
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    In the history of the ATC only three executive directors lasted more than two years. We are coming up on the two-year anniversary of the current executive director. I, for one, am hoping for a change.

  4. #24

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    “There is no data or evidence of any kind that recreating in the outdoors spread the virus, no matter how many times some of you try to find some one to blame.”

    When the pandemic started they had no idea how it was spread. It’s only recently that they have determined outdoor activity is relatively safe.



  5. #25
    ME => GA 19AT3 rickb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Blue View Post
    In the history of the ATC only three executive directors lasted more than two years. We are coming up on the two-year anniversary of the current executive director. I, for one, am hoping for a change.
    At the ATC executive director longevity has been inversely proportionate with compensation.

  6. #26
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    At the ATC executive director longevity has been inversely proportionate with compensation.
    You probably know more about this than I do. I chatted with an ATC executive director once. He/she told me that 2/3 of their time is spent raising money for the ATC. So, I suspect if the ATC executive director is not achieving fundraising goals they are ousted by the board. But this is just my intuition. Much can be overlooked when a non-profit's executive director brings in the money. And vice versa.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCloud View Post
    A land management agency doesn't get to tell people what to do or not do b/c it is bad for the people. It's called LAND management, not PEOPLE management.

    So the NPS or ATC or CDC has the power to ban the use of alcohol or cigarettes or soda b/c they are bad for your health? This is precisely the nanny state thinking Mayor Bloomberg introduced in NYC. What if some study finds that hiking with heart disease risks a heart attack? The ATC going to ban people with heart disease from the trail? That is NOT what government in a free society is about.

    There is no data or evidence of any kind that recreating in the outdoors spread the virus, no matter how many times some of you try to find some one to blame.
    Let me preface with, we're NOT going to get into the specifics of Covid-19 transmission. Also, don't go the politics route, we're not talking about NYC and alcohol and cigarettes. They're all strawman arguments. Plus that whole black and white, step off the slightest bit to gray and your going right to black is a weak rhetorical argument. People compromise on issues all the time and it doesn't mean issues are going to move any further than where they are in the middle.

    Your argument regarding the government not being able to tell people what to do because it is bad for them is a big fail. The USFS, NPS, BLM they can all tell people not to go somewhere on lands they administer because you might get hurt. They can put a gate or seal off an area for that reason. They put bannisters up near unsafe drops it doesn't mean they are going to put bannisters up everywhere. They can place occupancy limits on buildings they administer. They can tell you when quiet hours are in effect in campgrounds. As far as the ATC, they don't have enforcement power for much of anything, looks to be mainly 2000 miler certificates and hangtags. They can make recommendations though on the safe use of the trail, and that would include during a public health emergency. They make recommendations regarding waste elimination, one purpose of privies is to reduce the spread of human diseases.

    It would make no sense for the ATC to act as if there wasn't a pandemic going on and to encourage people to thruhike. This follows from the simple argument that you can take a vacation at home and interact with less people than you would on a thruhike. They recommended that people don't do it and they didn't issue hangtags and won't recognize miles hiked during a certain period of the pandemic. They were concerned about saving lives, in case you forgot, 600,000 Americans have died, and people are vilifying them over paper? I'm sorry for those aspiring thruhikers that had their dreams crushed and decided to follow the ATC's guidelines. I could be wrong, but didn't the ATC also say they were not going to recognize section hike miles upfront? I can understand if they didn't say that originally and a hiker was completely self-sufficient and they were unhappy about a retroactive policy change. Perspective-wise though, I have to say it's more of a first world problem to not get the paper you want from the organization that recommended you not do it in the first place. In India for example people aren't getting enough oxygen and a good portion of the world doesn't have access to vaccines yet.
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    Call all he wanta but he can't call me..."
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  8. #28
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    If I recall correctly, the PCT was also "closed" last year by its managing entity -- even before the ATC made its own announcement about the AT. Now admittedly I don't get out much and I'm wrong about a lot of things, but it seems to me that when it comes to the PCT, I haven't heard anything close to the angry complaints and vitriol directed towards the ATC. I'm curious as to why? Because the ATC is considered to be a "bureaucratic lackie" whilst the PCTA is not? Or is it because of hang tags and recognition certificates? Genuinely curious.
    fortis fortuna adjuvat

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoSpirits View Post
    Or is it because of hang tags and recognition certificates? Genuinely curious.
    The ATC has decreed that no miles hiked between 3/31/20 and 5/11/21 can EVER count towards a 2,000 miler certificate.

    Importantly, this decree holds whether or not those miles were hiked in accordance with best covid practices or not.

    This strikes some as heavy handed.

    No doubt even some at the ATC, given how they are having a 2021 NOBO (March start) participate in a high profile ATC virtual celebration.

    But I expect the real reason is more complicated, and has as much to do with the ATC’s ever expanding mission, whatever that may be.

  10. #30
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    The AT needs political support, so they have to play some politics. Some of that looks like mission creep, perhaps it is. But I think the idea is to build more advocates over time. I find some of the identity sensitivity tiresome sometimes but all in all I support it.
    Last edited by Alligator; 05-24-2021 at 12:50. Reason: Politics Chomp

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    I agree - and that podcast you referenced was excellent. I recall that listeners were encouraged to watch closely how the money was spent.

    The ATC provided some detail on one round of spending. Whether one finds these projects worthwhile or not, they do show something of a “mission creep” within the ATC — which is part of the reason some object to the ATC’s decisions on tags and certificates.

    Anyway, here are some of the places they are spending the pipeline money:

    he Community Impact Grant program will support the following organizations and programs:

    • Giles County ($300,000): Funds will be used to develop the Giles County Trail Center near Mountain Lake, providing an information source for local trails, designated parking and restroom facilities, and access to the A.T., Mountain Lake trails and Bald Knob, the tallest point in Giles County.
    • Friends of Monroe County ($43,100): Funds will lead to the development and publication of a Monroe County visitor’s guide, and the hiring of two AmeriCorps interns who will assist in historic preservation, capacity building and cultural heritage tourism, which will help boost local outdoor recreation economies.
    • Roanoke Parks and Recreation ($20,000): Funds will support a year-long Outdoor Adventure Club for underserved urban youth, introducing them to hiking, camping, rock climbing, caving, paddling, skiing and conservation projects; and will provide the bikes, helmets, mobile features and maintenance supplies needed to continue a mountain bike education program for the next five years.
    • The Humble Hustle Company, Inc ($40,000): Funds will create a new part-time position that will support the Company’s mission to empower black youth and connect diverse communities, engaging youth in the greater Roanoke area in environmental education, activism and environment-based service opportunities.
    • Wonder Universe: A Children’s Museum ($40,000): Funds will assist in educating children on the flora and fauna found on the Trail, and introduce signage and markers for responsible exploration, A.T. history and lore, and environmental stewardship on the A.T.
    • Mountain Lake Biological Station ($11,000): Funds will design and construct a publicly accessible, ADA-compliant, all-age appropriate interpretive trail and native plant restoration plot, which will highlight the natural history, land-use history, scientific research, and land management and conservation challenges of the area.
    • Mountain Castles Soil & Water Conservation District ($16,000): Funds will be used to implement the Plant and Animal Relatives of the Blue Ridge Curriculum Project, which will help teachers demonstrate to students the interconnected web of ecological relationships and to foster a strong connection to place, including on the ancestral lands of the Monacan.
    • The Mayapple School ($23,000): Funds will expand summer camp programming for 100-120 campers ages 3 to 15, including one overnight backpacking adventure on a section of the A.T
    Exactly as you put it,.Theyre mad and say they have all this money and dont think or do anything for the hiker community. Thats what I hear on social media..But I know that took it away form the issue a little but this is where the ATC can come in like you said certain hikers have special circumstances where each should be looked at by case by case.
    My love for life is quit simple .i get uo in the moring and then i go to bed at night. What I do inbween is to occupy my time. Cary Grant

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by gpburdelljr View Post
    The ATC has resumed recognition of 2000 milers, and is again issuing hangtags.

    https://appalachiantrail.org/officia...vid-19-update/
    whoppie doo!

  13. #33
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    I have zero issue with Federal Government and State Governments directed closure of Federal and State Properties, and then providing further guidance on social distancing and the use of masks. Both of which were common sense guidance. The ATC, from my perspective did the right thing in terms of also providing directive action and guidance to reflect that of Federal and State authorities directives and guidance in terms of trail closures. I am not a fan of their retroactive non-recognition of 2000 milers regardless of the means or timing of how they attained that feat.Furlough
    "Too often I would hear men boast of the miles covered that day, rarely of what they had seen." Louis L’Amour

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