21 Days at Neanderthal University

[Mockernut]

Went thru all the pics on smug mug- loved them! I want to hike more of this area badly and think I have a plan...just hike soon after you do, using the same trails, since you do such a nice job clearing trail! Thanks for sharing!

[Tipi Walter]

He's not after miles. To each their own, who cares?
Besides, for some of us, Tipi's trips bring a touch of nostalgia with them. Steep climbs with that pack always reminds me of our HS wrestling coach having us "run" bleachers carrying someone else from our weight class piggyback


Tipi, can you tell me what the creek crossings are like on the Slickrock Creek Trail?
It's possible I might drop by and do the Slickrock/Citico Loop from Strawberry Knob, or something else in the area, early next week. Got a friend who lives ~20 miles SW of Boone, and depending on what kind of plan we come up with, I could be looking for something new-to-me to kill a couple of days on the way.
Been wanting to check out Hangover and that Upper Slickrock Trail for a while now.
Should I bring my saw?

Could I just roll up my pants and hike in sandals(maybe with wetsocks) for a few miles to get through all of the crossings?
Thanks!

I crossed Slickrock once on this trip at the top #12 crossing---below---
Trip 215 (61)-XL.jpg
Of course the water was low when I went. And #12 is the easiest crossing. There's another crossing above this on the Nutbuster (Upper Slickrock) trail but it's over Hangover Creek and not Slickrock. If it doesn't storm for 3 days the creek should be passable but in a bad storm it gets wild and tough. You can cross in anything you want---boots, crocs, sandals, barefoot etc. I prefer to use bare feet and crocs and keep my socks/boots dry esp during a winter trip.

TRIP 125 112-XL.jpg
Here's the same crossing during a tropical storm in 2011.

If you want to see all my keyword Slickrock Creek pics go here---

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/keywo...krock%20creek/

You won't really need a saw but pruners come in handy to cut sawbriars and brambles.

Went thru all the pics on smug mug- loved them! I want to hike more of this area badly and think I have a plan...just hike soon after you do, using the same trails, since you do such a nice job clearing trail! Thanks for sharing!

I did some work on the Nutbuster trail in a bad section full of hemlock blowdowns.

Trip 215 (84)-XL.jpg
Cut this chest high limb.

Trip 215 (85)-XL.jpg
The big tree behind is a crawl under belly crawl.

[OwenM]

Thank you. I'd read there were 13 creek crossings on that route, but had no idea how big the creek was. With 20s for lows and highs ~40 next week, I just didn't want to be wading through anything deep, and hiking in soaked pants.

[Slugg]

Most UL hikers carry minimal weight on purpose. They thoughtfully eliminate non-essential items, find items that serve multiple functions and carefully plan trips to maximize their enjoyment.
Walter prides himself on carrying as much weight as possible, must be 5000 pictures of his packs, jams in redundant, over scoped, just in case, seasonally inappropriate items. It’s really more like homeless squatting without the shopping cart rather than backpacking.

So you’re thinking UL’ers should be jealous! I wondering if most UL’ers think it just stupid!

Don’t really care about labels but I’ve been called UL a time or two, and I think these trips are incredible. Different goals than me, but who cares? This post is bizarre.

[Hosh]

Don’t really care about labels but I’ve been called UL a time or two, and I think these trips are incredible. Different goals than me, but who cares? This post is bizarre.

To each his own, I responded to the “eat your hearts out UL’ers” comment. From my view point, there’s 40-45#’s of extra stuff.
Lots of pack pictures, LNT issues, and hyperbole, but if it’s incredible to you then so be it.
Try dragging that sh** up 12,000’ passes and I’ll say it’s incredible too. Otherwise, it’s rich man squatting, lol.

[TwoSpirits]

Welp...at least when Tipi is "squatting" he is also doing a ton of trail work so that to the trail is a more enjoyable experience for, you know, "real" hikers.

[Hosh]

Welp...at least when Tipi is "squatting" he is also doing a ton of trail work so that to the trail is a more enjoyable experience for, you know, "real" hikers.

Never tried to distinguish myself as a real hiker, merely commented on the UL eat your heart out post. Trail maintenance is great and fully supported, good use of time.

[Tipi Walter]

Try dragging that sh** up 12,000’ passes and I’ll say it’s incredible too. Otherwise, it’s rich man squatting, lol.

Sherpas do it all the time and way above 12,000 feet. And some do it barefoot.

04c6.jpg
Pic by Daniel Oberhaus from here---
https://says.com/my/lifestyle/how-do...-and-endurance

[fudgefoot]

Apparently HYOH is a novel concept to Hosh. For some of us, Tipi is a hero and his exploits are legendary.

[JNI64]

He's not after miles. To each their own, who cares?
Besides, for some of us, Tipi's trips bring a touch of nostalgia with them. Steep climbs with that pack always reminds me of our HS wrestling coach having us "run" bleachers carrying someone else from our weight class piggyback


Tipi, can you tell me what the creek crossings are like on the Slickrock Creek Trail?
It's possible I might drop by and do the Slickrock/Citico Loop from Strawberry Knob, or something else in the area, early next week. Got a friend who lives ~20 miles SW of Boone, and depending on what kind of plan we come up with, I could be looking for something new-to-me to kill a couple of days on the way.
Been wanting to check out Hangover and that Upper Slickrock Trail for a while now.
Should I bring my saw?

Could I just roll up my pants and hike in sandals(maybe with wetsocks) for a few miles to get through all of the crossings?
Thanks!

I think that's how tipi trains for these trips he runs hills with little mitten on his back. And I think his backpack is sexy like a big beautiful woman with lots of curves hugging your back all day

[Hosh]

Apparently HYOH is a novel concept to Hosh. For some of us, Tipi is a hero and his exploits are legendary.

Whelp, I’m totally onboard with HYOH. I merely responded to the taunt of ULers not being able to carry heavy loads. Honestly if you want to make your pack as heavy as possible, go for it. I just wrote it was stupid.
I still think one could do a 20 night trip with a 50# pack. Sub 20# base weight, 30#’s of food. If the extra weight tickles your fancy, by all means load her up!
One of the fun, challenging aspects of backpacking is optimizing each trip for conditions, length, and terrain.
If you wanna bring one of everything, duplicates of others…..well it still seems stupid!
Hosh out, I’m going to go take a picture of my pack, lol

[Alligator]

¡Nicely done!

Eat your hearts out ULers!

First elbow thrown was this post. If you don't want a conversation to go off the rails, that is, you want to read a trip report and not have a weight discussion thread, don't throw digs that go that way. Also, one knows that they aren't opening an UL thread when reading a thread started by Tipi, so is if his pack heavy philosophy grates perhaps just ignore the thread?

I will say though, the use of the microspikes, while perhaps joking, may be an actual idea. Are you actually suggesting this Tipi Walter? You did say they worked great!!?

[Tipi Walter]

I will say though, the use of the microspikes, while perhaps joking, may be an actual idea. Are you actually suggesting this Tipi Walter? You did say they worked great!!?

No joke at all. I had a revelation to forget about snow and just wear the spikes on bare ground as cleats and once convinced I wore them for most of the rest of the trip either on steep ups or downs. I hate to say it but they are now part of my standard load---another extra pound. They are mandatory on 30-45 degree trails covered in dead leaves most esp when carrying 80 to 100 lb loads and for those of us past the age of 70. They dig in going up and brake going down.

Trip 215 (46)-XL.jpg

[Alligator]

No joke at all. I had a revelation to forget about snow and just wear the spikes on bare ground as cleats and once convinced I wore them for most of the rest of the trip either on steep ups or downs. I hate to say it but they are now part of my standard load---another extra pound. They are mandatory on 30-45 degree trails covered in dead leaves most esp when carrying 80 to 100 lb loads and for those of us past the age of 70. They dig in going up and brake going down.

Trip 215 (46)-XL.jpg

So now that I know that you weren't kidding, that sounds about as right as putting chains on a car's tires starting in the fall to handle the leaves. Citing sports where cleats are used doesn't translate to the woods. They are meant to be used in the winter, on frozen surfaces, not to tear up earth on slopes were erosion is prevalent. It's a bit ridiculous to justify using them because you have an overloaded pack rather than simply lightening your load. There are 12 spikes per foot on those, never mind the chain links, driven by a bunch of extra weight on your body. Walk even slower, don't cause resource damage.

[Tipi Walter]

BONUS PICS

Trip 215 (48)-XL.jpg

A view of Hangover Mt from Fodderstack Ridge. In between the ridges is Slickrock Creek.

Trip 215 (124)-XL.jpg

Naked Ground Gap BMT "trailsign"---I find the decal off the metal plate on the ground so I use ripstop tape and put it back up.

[zelph]

Naked Ground Gap BMT "trailsign"---I find the decal off the metal plate on the ground so I use ripstop tape and put it back up.

It's fun to do trail maintenance :-)

[OwenM]

So now that I know that you weren't kidding, that sounds about as right as putting chains on a car's tires starting in the fall to handle the leaves. Citing sports where cleats are used doesn't translate to the woods. They are meant to be used in the winter, on frozen surfaces, not to tear up earth on slopes were erosion is prevalent. It's a bit ridiculous to justify using them because you have an overloaded pack rather than simply lightening your load. There are 12 spikes per foot on those, never mind the chain links, driven by a bunch of extra weight on your body. Walk even slower, don't cause resource damage.

Who's throwing elbows and making digs about weight now?
I see your point for general use, but that wasn't entirely fair.
In the SE our trails get buried in leaves in late November, and that can make steep descents dangerous.
We're not hiking on the AT(which is often reminiscent of being on a sidewalk by comparison) here, but on trails with little use and maintenance.
I had smiled to myself when reading about Tipi using his Microspikes, because I remembered thinking that I wished I had mine for an extremely steep descent on hardpack and rock covered with fine gravel on a climber route in CO last September, and again on the AL Pinhoti on Nov. 19 where I fell going down the "Stairway to Heaven", because of the leaves covering the rocks.
No, I wouldn't wear them on bare ground, and have only used them on ice myself, but a traction device for more traction when your ability to safely negotiate the terrain is compromised by the ground being covered with something that otherwise denies that?
Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

I'm sitting here looking at a pair of Kahtoolas. They're not gonna tear the trail up when it's got several inches of leaves on top of it, they're not even going to touch it. What they are gonna do is punch through those top layers that slide around so easily.

Maybe that's hard for some people to relate to, depending on the type and amount of tree cover where they live, or the heavy use of local trails, but it's a big issue in the southern Appalachians and foothills.
For mountain biking, I have to change to a different set of tires with tall knobs in late fall to keep the bike from sliding out from under me on turns, and for the brakes to have a chance of doing any good on downhills. I paid for that lesson in blood, so I totally get it!

[rickb]

As one who has more Neanderthal DNA than 97% than al other 23AndMe customers, you made me a proud man today.

A bit disappointed not to see any rattlesnake pictures, but otherwise another great report.

[Alligator]

Who's throwing elbows and making digs about weight now?
I see your point for general use, but that wasn't entirely fair.
In the SE our trails get buried in leaves in late November, and that can make steep descents dangerous.
We're not hiking on the AT(which is often reminiscent of being on a sidewalk by comparison) here, but on trails with little use and maintenance.
I had smiled to myself when reading about Tipi using his Microspikes, because I remembered thinking that I wished I had mine for an extremely steep descent on hardpack and rock covered with fine gravel on a climber route in CO last September, and again on the AL Pinhoti on Nov. 19 where I fell going down the "Stairway to Heaven", because of the leaves covering the rocks.
No, I wouldn't wear them on bare ground, and have only used them on ice myself, but a traction device for more traction when your ability to safely negotiate the terrain is compromised by the ground being covered with something that otherwise denies that?
Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

I'm sitting here looking at a pair of Kahtoolas. They're not gonna tear the trail up when it's got several inches of leaves on top of it, they're not even going to touch it. What they are gonna do is punch through those top layers that slide around so easily.

Maybe that's hard for some people to relate to, depending on the type and amount of tree cover where they live, or the heavy use of local trails, but it's a big issue in the southern Appalachians and foothills.
For mountain biking, I have to change to a different set of tires with tall knobs in late fall to keep the bike from sliding out from under me on turns, and for the brakes to have a chance of doing any good on downhills. I paid for that lesson in blood, so I totally get it!

The spikes are going to punch through to the soil and tear into it like the dagger point they are shaped like. Otherwise they won't hold particularly well. Leaves are not wood. The variability in the leaf layer is not something visible as far as depth at any point, even over 15 yards of trail, let alone a longer stretch like a full hill. Little guarantee what the leaf layer thickness is, no one is going to make depth checks. Whether or not the trail is maintained regularly or sporadically those things will, without doubt, be damaging to the resource. There's no shame in slow walking it down the slope carefully or butt scooting your way down if it's too slick. The concept of bringing these out for fall use means much more than that one time you think you needed them. Once somebody busts them out and puts them on, they are extremely unlikely to take them off immediately.

Maybe you should put chains and pointed spikes on your bike tires Owen? That's the comparison.

Hey you know what else, deciduous trees drop leaves everywhere, and in a forest this results in a considerable amount of leaves no matter the geography. Decomposition rates do of course vary and affect the humus layer but slick leaves are prevalent in lots of areas. They can be handled quite reasonably by being cautious. Microspikes aren't mandatory even for sporadic ice, which is their actual purpose, let alone being mandatory as stated for fall use.

It's not a dig that Tipi walks slow, that's his business and he points that out himself nor is it a dig to say his pack is overloaded if it causing him safety issues. He also calls out many, many behaviors he finds unacceptable for the trail. This would be a bad idea put into widespread practice.

[Tipi Walter]

In the SE our trails get buried in leaves in late November, and that can make steep descents dangerous.
We're not hiking on the AT(which is often reminiscent of being on a sidewalk by comparison) here, but on trails with little use and maintenance.
I had smiled to myself when reading about Tipi using his Microspikes, because I remembered thinking that I wished I had mine for an extremely steep descent on hardpack and rock covered with fine gravel on a climber route in CO last September, and again on the AL Pinhoti on Nov. 19 where I fell going down the "Stairway to Heaven", because of the leaves covering the rocks.
No, I wouldn't wear them on bare ground, and have only used them on ice myself, but a traction device for more traction when your ability to safely negotiate the terrain is compromised by the ground being covered with something that otherwise denies that?
Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

You hit it on the head. I should have mentioned that much of my spike usage was on designated horse trails (Pine Ridge/Fodderstack Ridge)---and if anyone knows about horses they know the tremendous amount of damage a 1,000 lb horse on steel hooves can do to a trail.

And then of course there's the ageless discussion of hiking pole tips and what they can do to trails---but I don't see alot of people here discussing the subject---and nowadays a great percentage of backpackers use bare tipped hiking poles w/o rubber tips. See this old thread from 2003---


https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/sho...trekking-poles

As one who has more Neanderthal DNA than 97% than al other 23AndMe customers, you made me a proud man today.

A bit disappointed not to see any rattlesnake pictures, but otherwise another great report.

Thanks for the blurb. As outdoorsmen we should be extremely proud of our Neanderthal heritage.