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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by illabelle View Post
    I think I probably copied that list about 2017 or so. At the time we would have had 3-4 years left in our 10-year section hike, and yes, we had a bunch of those tough ones left. However because we weren't trying to do the trail in order, we organized the remaining miles (slacking at times) so that we could knock out several in each trip without being overwhelmed by a particularly tough section. I think one of the worst for us was from Pinkham north to Gorham. The Mahoosucs were "memorable" also.
    If I remember correctly, Guthook said he selected half-mile increments to avoid having data skewed by things like ladders. I'll look for the old thread and post it here if I can find it.

    And here it is, Guthook's list is on post 121 out of 183 from 2009 to 2018, so if you wanna peruse the old discussion, it's there:
    https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthr...f-the-AT/page5

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by peakbagger View Post
    If you think the AT over Moody is difficult, the AT corridor boundaries on both the north and south sides of the AT route are decidedly more interesting. I am the corridor monitor for that section.
    I couldn’t imagine the difficulty of that! Thank you for being a corridor monitor! When I was there the last time, there was a camp of maintainers and crew in a low valley close to a. Water source. I even mentioned to my trail brother how difficult it must be to be a part of that crew!
    "gbolt" on the Trail

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  3. #23
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    OK, I re-did the calculations with a 0.25 mile distance increment instead of 0.1 mile. Here goes:

    Overall:

    Rank AT mile State Elev. Change (ft) Grade (%) Location
    1 1878.0 NH 537 40.7 NOBO ascent from Pinkham Notch
    2 2194.7 ME 516 39.1 Ascending Mt Katahdin
    3 1882.8 NH 503 38.1 NOBO ascent from Carter Notch
    4 1884.9 NH 489 37.0 SOBO ascent from Zeta Pass
    5 1947.2 ME 488 37.0 NOBO ascent of Moody Mtn
    6 2001.0 ME 487 36.9 NOBO ascent of South Crocker Mtn
    7 1871.1 NH 475 36.0 SOBO ascent of Mt Madison
    8 1920.7 ME 465 35.2 SOBO ascent from Mahoosuc Notch
    9 1949.5 ME 456 34.6 NOBO ascent from South Arm Rd
    10 1888.5 NH 450 34.1 SOBO ascent of North Carter Mtn
    11 1852.4 NH 443 33.6 NOBO ascent of Webster Cliffs
    12 (tie) 1801.8 NH 442 33.5 NOBO ascent of Mt Moosilauke
    12 (tie) 1805.6 NH 442 33.5 SOBO ascent of Mt Moosilauke
    14 1836.5 NH 438 33.2 NOBO ascent of South Twin Mtn
    15 1833.4 NH 431 32.7 SOBO ascent of Mt Garfield

    South of Glencliff, NH:

    Rank AT Mile State Elev. Change (ft) Grade (%) Location
    1 (tie) 1476.8 CT 417 31.6 SOBO ascent to St. John's Ledges
    1 (tie) 1512.2 CT 417 31.6 SOBO ascent of Bear Mtn
    3 1689.7 VT 405 30.7 NOBO ascent from Clarendon Gorge
    4 1219.4 PA 400 30.3 SOBO ascent from Port Clinton
    5 1387.2 NY 399 30.2 SOBO ascent of Agony Grind
    6 99.4 NC 383 29.0 NOBO ascent of Albert Mtn
    7 1517.6 MA 378 28.6 NOBO ascent of Mt Everett
    8 1596.5 MA 366 27.7 SOBO ascent of Mt Greylock
    9 1776.9 NH 365 27.7 NOBO ascent of Smarts Mtn
    10 151.8 NC 355 26.9 NOBO ascent from Sweetwater Gap
    11 1409.4 NY 347 26.3 NOBO ascent from the Hudson River
    12 1261.5 PA 343 26.0 NOBO ascent from Lehigh Gap
    13 187.6 NC/TN 338 25.6 SOBO ascent of Brier Knob
    14 791.8 VA 335 25.4 NOBO ascent of Big Rocky Row
    15 1616.8 VT 327 24.8 SOBO ascent from Bennington/Rt. 9

    By State:

    State AT Mile Change (ft) Grade (%) Location
    GA 37.3 296 22.4 NOBO ascent from Tesnatee Gap
    NC 99.4 383 29.0 NOBO ascent of Albert Mtn
    NC/TN 187.6 338 25.6 SOBO ascent of Brier Knob
    TN 421.1 323 24.5 SOBO ascent from Laurel Falls
    VA/WV 791.8 335 25.4 NOBO ascent of Big Rocky Row
    MD 1064.3 321 24.3 SOBO ascent to High Rock
    PA 1219.4 400 30.3 SOBO ascent from Port Clinton
    NJ 1354.5 274 20.8 NOBO ascent of Pochuck Mtn
    NY 1378.2 399 30.2 SOBO ascent of Agony Grind
    CT (tie) 1476.8 417 31.6 SOBO ascent to St. John's Ledges
    CT (tie) 1512.2 417 31.6 SOBO ascent of Bear Mtn
    MA 1517.6 378 28.6 NOBO ascent of Mt Everett
    VT 1689.7 405 30.7 NOBO ascent from Clarendon Gorge
    NH 1878.0 537 40.7 NOBO ascent from Pinkham Notch
    ME 2194.7 516 39.1 Ascending Mt Katahdin

  4. #24
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    Here it is in a table:

    Half Mile Sections from MP to MP elevation grade
    Pinkham Notch to Wildcat E 1865.5 1866 1017 38.5%
    Asquam Ridge Trail to Kinsman Notch 1794.3 1794.8 934 35.4%
    Galehead to South Twin 1824.2 1824.7 896 33.9%
    Northbound from Mt Garfield 1821.2 1821.7 875 33.1%
    O Joy Brook to The Gateway 2182.1 2182.6 860 32.6%
    Mahoosuc Arm 1908.2 1908.7 850 32.2%
    Carter Notch to Carter Dome 1869.9 1870.4 846 32.0%
    South Arm Rd to Old Blue 1934.5 1935 812 30.8%
    South Peak Moosilauke 1790.4 1790.9 801 30.3%
    Sawyer Notch to Moody Mtn 1932.2 1932.7 799 30.3%
    south side of Mt Success 1897.4 1897.9 792 30.0%
    Crocker Cirque to South Crocker 1985.3 1985.8 792 30.0%
    North from East Peak Baldpate 1918.8 1919.3 778 29.5%
    Fulling Mill Mtn to Mahoosuc Notch 1906.1 1906.6 759 28.8%
    Hall Mtn Lean-to to Sawyer Notch 1930.8 1931.3 754 28.6%
    South from Carabassett River 1983.4 1983.9 749 28.4%
    North Carter to Imp 1875.4 1875.9 742 28.1%
    north of Mt Moriah to Rattle River 1880.2 1880.7 742 28.1%
    The Horn to Redington Stream Campsite 1968.1 1968.6 734 27.8%
    Baldpate Lean-to to West Baldpate 1916.7 1917.2 732 27.7%
    Liberty Brook to Franconia Ridge Trail 1813.4 1813.9 719 27.2%
    Mt Prospect to stream at base of Greylock 1585.7 1586.2 698 26.4%
    Lafayette to Garfield Notch 1818.4 1818.9 695 26.3%
    Eliza Brook to South Kinsman 1804.5 1805 687 26.0%
    White Cap to Logan Brook Lean-to 2110.6 2111.1 682 25.8%
    Poplar Ridge to spring before Orbeton Canyon 1971.7 1972.2 678 25.7%
    Northbound into Port Clinton 1210.8 1211.3 677 25.6%
    Northbound to Smarts Mountain 1765.2 1765.7 677 25.6%
    Moose & Deer Stream to Saddleback 1964.9 1965.4 661 25.0%
    Zeacliff to Zealand Falls Hut 1830 1830.5 658 24.9%
    Northbound into Woodford Hollow / VT Rte 9 1605.5 1606 656 24.8%
    North from Lehigh Gap 1252.1 1252.6 639 24.2%
    Crawford Notch to Mt Webster 1840.4 1840.9 637 24.1%
    Sydney Tappan Campsite to West Peak 2106.5 2107 633 24.0%
    The Eyebrow to Grafton Notch 1913.5 1914 629 23.8%
    Pleasant Pond Lean-to to Pleasant Pond Mtn 2036.9 2037.4 628 23.8%
    Kinsman Notch north 1795.6 1796.1 622 23.6%
    Race Brook Falls to Mt Everett 1507.6 1508.1 620 23.5%
    Carl Newhall Lean-to to Gulf Hagas Mtn 2104.9 2105.4 618 23.4%
    Northbound to Bemis Stream 1945.8 1946.3 617 23.4%
    Perham Stream to Lone Mountain 1976.4 1976.9 615 23.3%
    Beaver Bog to View before Horns Pond View 1997.6 1998.1 608 23.0%
    Little Rocky Row to Big Rocky Row 783.3 783.8 597 22.6%
    Thundering Falls Rd to Quimby Mtn 1701.1 1701.6 597 22.6%
    Ethan Pond Trail to Crawford Notch 1838.1 1838.6 596 22.6%
    St John's Ledges to River Rd 1466.9 1467.4 592 22.4%
    Lakes of the Clouds to Mt Washington 1850.7 1851.2 587 22.2%
    Northbound into Starkey Gap 187 187.5 584 22.1%
    Moxie Bald North Peak side trail to Bald Mtn Lean-to 2048.5 2049 584 22.1%
    Northbound from Fourth Chairback 2090 2090.5 582 22.0%
    Northbound to Saddleback Junior 1969.3 1969.8 579 21.9%
    Avery Peak to Safford Notch 2001 2001.5 578 21.9%
    North Kinsman to stream before Lonesome Lake Hut 1806.6 1807.1 575 21.8%
    Mt Cube to Brackett Brook 1772.9 1773.4 574 21.7%
    Between Imp Campsite and Mt Moriah 1877.6 1878.1 574 21.7%
    Ash Gap to Roan Mtn 374.7 375.2 568 21.5%
    Jump Up to Swim Bald 142.1 142.6 566 21.4%
    Northbound to Sinking Creek Mtn 672.3 672.8 563 21.3%
    Mt Williams 1584.1 1584.6 562 21.3%
    Bear Mtn to Sage's Ravine 1502.4 1502.9 561 21.3%
    North from Wilbur Dam Rd 429.5 430 555 21.0%
    Sweetwater Gap north 152 152.5 552 20.9%
    Perkins Memorial Drive to Bear Mtn Rec Area 1397.3 1397.8 552 20.9%
    Stage Road to Suicide Six View 1722.5 1723 552 20.9%
    Northbound into Trident Col 1891.1 1891.6 552 20.9%
    Northbound to Shaker Campsite 1534.3 1534.8 551 20.9%
    Kelley Knob to Laurel Creek Shelter 667.3 667.8 549 20.8%
    Northbound from Clarendon Gorge 1678 1678.5 549 20.8%
    Hughes Gap Rd to Ash Gap 372.8 373.3 548 20.8%
    Agony Grind to NY 17 1378.5 1379 545 20.6%
    US 9D to Anthony's Nose side trail 1399.4 1399.9 544 20.6%
    Southbound from Katahdin Ironworks Road 2097.7 2098.2 542 20.5%
    Angels Rest to Pearisburg 627.8 628.3 540 20.5%
    Northbound to Pinwheels Vista & Wawayanda Vista 1352.8 1353.3 540 20.5%
    Lye-Dorchester Rd to Lambert Ridge 1762.3 1762.8 540 20.5%

  5. #25

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    Very cool, and some fond memories. And a few not so fond. Several of the sections I recall really huffing and puffing and thinking how come you don’t hear about this beforehand?

  6. #26

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    I think 0.1 mile is too long a sample interval for accurate results. The GPS will shortcut the switchbacks, drawing straight lines between points. This is not a good way to measure steepness of trails and will always give an abnormally high number. Misleading to the point of uselessness. IMO. Go back to rolling a wheel-based scale, or go home.

  7. #27
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    Switchbacks are rarely an issue in Maine and NH

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleRock View Post
    OK, I re-did the calculations with a 0.25 mile distance increment instead of 0.1 mile. Here goes:

    Overall:

    Rank AT mile State Elev. Change (ft) Grade (%) Location
    1 1878.0 NH 537 40.7 NOBO ascent from Pinkham Notch
    2 2194.7 ME 516 39.1 Ascending Mt Katahdin
    3 1882.8 NH 503 38.1 NOBO ascent from Carter Notch
    4 1884.9 NH 489 37.0 SOBO ascent from Zeta Pass
    5 1947.2 ME 488 37.0 NOBO ascent of Moody Mtn
    6 2001.0 ME 487 36.9 NOBO ascent of South Crocker Mtn
    7 1871.1 NH 475 36.0 SOBO ascent of Mt Madison
    8 1920.7 ME 465 35.2 SOBO ascent from Mahoosuc Notch
    9 1949.5 ME 456 34.6 NOBO ascent from South Arm Rd
    10 1888.5 NH 450 34.1 SOBO ascent of North Carter Mtn
    11 1852.4 NH 443 33.6 NOBO ascent of Webster Cliffs
    12 (tie) 1801.8 NH 442 33.5 NOBO ascent of Mt Moosilauke
    12 (tie) 1805.6 NH 442 33.5 SOBO ascent of Mt Moosilauke
    14 1836.5 NH 438 33.2 NOBO ascent of South Twin Mtn
    15 1833.4 NH 431 32.7 SOBO ascent of Mt Garfield
    Thanks for humoring me. I feel much better now! I was pretty sure that was hard
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockDoc View Post
    I think 0.1 mile is too long a sample interval for accurate results. The GPS will shortcut the switchbacks, drawing straight lines between points. This is not a good way to measure steepness of trails and will always give an abnormally high number. Misleading to the point of uselessness. IMO. Go back to rolling a wheel-based scale, or go home.
    Sure, a measuring wheel will give more accurate distance measurements. I don't dispute that (though I don't see how anyone could get accurate distance measurements over some of the boulder scrambles on the AT). But it would also be very hard to geolocate measuring wheel data and get accurate elevation measurements for a 2000+ mile trail in a way that can be crunched through using a computer program like I and others have done. This is why we use GPS.

    I agree the 0.1 mile interval was too short, which is why I went back and did 0.25 mile intervals. I'm in the process of crunching the data for 0.5 mile intervals so I can compare with guthook's table. Now that the program is written I could do this fairly easily for any interval. It just takes about an hour of computer time, plus the effort to translate the mile markers into specific locations.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockDoc View Post
    I think 0.1 mile is too long a sample interval for accurate results. The GPS will shortcut the switchbacks, drawing straight lines between points. This is not a good way to measure steepness of trails and will always give an abnormally high number. Misleading to the point of uselessness. IMO. Go back to rolling a wheel-based scale, or go home.
    In New England you have the issues of roots, rock steps and rocky paths along with the PA rocks. On the IAT in Quebec in '99, they used a string measuring device where they tied one end to a tree (or stood on it) and ran out string. Sadly they left the string on the trail. I walked through that stuff for several days. This was standard in their logging industry. The ATC was also documenting GPS coordinates using a backpack sized unit that year but of course the accuracy was lower then.

    I found this article that describes the methods of determining trail length, their associated problems and how GPS is used today. Perhaps the ATC has or will write an article precisely describing their measuring methods.

    https://www.wta.org/news/magazine/fe...l-measurements

  11. #31

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    SOBO ascent out of NOC
    I climbed NOBO out there twice.

  12. #32

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    I would define grade as rise/horizontal run. This is the standard in engineering, roads, railroads, and construction. It also gives a slightly larger number especially when looking at the steeper grades. If you think of a right triangle, the trail length is the hypotneuse. The horizontal run is the base which would be the distance as measured on a flat map. Fanny Pack describes this well in

    https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/sho...Carolina/page2

    Unfortunately after all their discussion, I don't think anyone backed out the horizontal run to do an actual trail calculation. The base or horizontal run = square root (square of trail length - square of the elevation change).

    This gives a description and graph of various grades we encounter.

    http://sonorannews.com/archives/2011...cent%20or%20so.

  13. #33
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    Here's what I got using 0.5 mile intervals. Very similar to guthook's list.

    Overall:
    Rank AT Mile State Elev. Change (ft) Grade (%) Location
    1 1877.9 NH 945 35.8 NOBO ascent from Pinkham Notch
    2 1870.9 NH 874 33.1 SOBO ascent of Mt Madison
    3 1805.6 NH 843 31.9 SOBO ascent of Mt Moosilauke
    4 (tie) 1882.8 NH 836 31.7 NOBO ascent from Carter Notch
    4 (tie) 1949.5 ME 836 31.7 NOBO ascent from South Arm Rd
    6 1836.4 NH 821 31.1 NOBO ascent of South Twin Mtn
    7 2194.4 ME 813 30.8 Ascending Mt Katahdin
    8 1947.0 ME 810 30.7 NOBO ascent of Moody Mtn
    9 1833.2 NH 806 30.5 SOBO ascent of Mt Garfield
    10 1801.5 NH 764 29.0 NOBO ascent of Mt Moosilauke
    11 1920.4 ME 758 28.7 SOBO ascent from Mahoosuc Notch
    12 (tie) 1881.9 NH 755 28.6 SOBO ascent from Carter Notch
    12 (tie) 2000.8 ME 755 28.6 NOBO ascent of South Crocker Mtn
    14 1922.7 ME 734 27.8 NOBO ascent of Mahoosuc Arm
    15 1888.5 NH 723 27.4 SOBO ascent of North Carter Mtn
    16 1884.8 NH 720 27.3 SOBO ascent from Zeta Pass
    17 1933.6 ME 716 27.1 SOBO ascent of Baldplate East Peak
    18 1911.2 NH 704 26.7 NOBO ascent of Mt Success
    19 1931.5 ME 696 26.4 NOBO ascent of Baldplate West Peak
    20 1998.8 ME 691 26.2 SOBO ascent of Sugarloaf Mtn
    21 1219.2 PA 678 25.7 SOBO ascent from Port Clinton
    22 1816.2 NH 665 25.2 NOBO ascent of South Kinsman Mtn
    23 1983.4 ME 662 25.1 SOBO ascent of The Horn
    24 (tie) 1825.4 NH 660 25.0 NOBO ascent from Franconia Notch
    24 (tie) 1945.6 ME 660 25.0 SOBO ascent from Sawyer Notch
    South of Glencliff, NH:
    Rank AT Mile State Elev. Change (ft) Grade (%) Location
    1 1219.2 PA 678 25.7 SOBO ascent from Port Clinton
    2 1776.9 NH 649 24.6 NOBO ascent of Smarts Mtn
    3 (tie) 1517.4 MA 635 24.0 NOBO ascent of Mt Everett
    3 (tie) 1616.6 VT 635 24.0 SOBO ascent from Bennington/Rt 9
    5 1596.2 MA 625 23.7 SOBO ascent from North Adams
    6 187.5 NC/TN 607 23.0 SOBO ascent of Brier Knob
    7 1689.6 VT 602 22.8 NOBO ascent from Clarendon Gorge
    8 791.5 VA 594 22.5 NOBO ascent of Big Rocky Row
    9 (tie) 151.6 NC 583 22.1 NOBO ascent from Sweetwater Gap
    9 (tie) 1476.8 CT 583 22.1 SOBO ascent to St. John's Ledges
    11 674.5 VA 569 21.6 SOBO ascent of Kelly Knob
    12 1261.2 PA 564 21.4 NOBO ascent from Lehigh Gap
    13 1594.8 MA 563 21.3 SOBO ascent of Mt Williams
    14 1735.6 VT 562 21.3 NOBO ascent from South Pomfret Rd
    15 1713.8 VT 551 20.9 NOBO ascent of Quimby Mtn
    16 667.0 VA 550 20.8 SOBO ascent from War Spur Shelter
    17 1784.6 NH 548 20.7 SOBO ascent of Mt Cube
    18 1690.6 VT 543 20.6 NOBO ascent from Clarendon Shelter
    19 1387.0 NY 541 20.5 SOBO ascent of Agony Grind
    20 1064.2 MD 535 20.3 SOBO ascent to High Rock
    By State:
    State AT Mile Elev. Change (ft) Grade (%) Location
    GA 37.3 488 18.5 NOBO ascent from Tesnatee Gap
    NC 151.6 582 22.1 NOBO ascent from Sweetwater Gap
    NC/TN 187.5 607 23.0 SOBO ascent of Brier Knob
    TN 433.5 453 17.2 NOBO ascent from Wilbur Dam Rd
    VA/WV 791.5 594 22.5 NOBO ascent of Big Rocky Row
    MD 1064.2 535 20.3 SOBO ascent to High Rock
    PA 1219.2 678 25.7 SOBO ascent from Port Clinton
    NJ 1361.3 503 19.1 NOBO ascent of Wawayanda Mtn
    NY 1387.0 541 20.5 SOBO ascent of Agony Grind
    CT 1476.8 583 22.1 SOBO ascent of St. John's Ledges
    MA 1517.4 635 24.0 NOBO ascent of Mt Everett
    VT 1616.6 635 24.0 SOBO ascent from Bennington/Rt 9
    NH 1877.9 945 35.8 NOBO ascent from Pinkham Notch
    ME 1949.5 836 31.7 NOBO ascent from South Arm Rd

  14. #34
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    The long slogs are the ones that stick in my mind. Not so much very steep but very short segments.

    I've done GA to PA, and SOBO Priest, NOBO Three Ridges, NOBO out of the NOC, and NOBO up Albert Mountain I remember as extra tough. I descended into Port Clinton, but I swear that was the steepest descent I'd done up to that point. It would be a tough climb!
    It is what it is.

  15. #35

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    Since many people hike from shelter to shelter, an average of the grades of all the 0.1 mile ups and downs in each of the shelter to shelter segments might give a good idea of the difficulty of the sections. This, of course, wouldn’t factor in other difficulties like rocks in Pennsylvania.

  16. #36
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    In preparation for a section hike that included some of these steep climbs/descents, I copied pages from AWOL and marked those steep areas with a highlighter. Because of the scale of AWOL's elevation profile, it was often hard to distinguish the truly steep places from the generally steepish terrain around them. Helped with mental preparedness if nothing else.

  17. #37
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    There is also the subjective aspect of steep climbs. Talk to many thru hikers and they will get attuned to certain daily elevation change and when a big ascent pops up, they seem to feel it much more. Western NH is not flat but in line with what was encoutered in VT but talk to many thru hikers and that climb up out of Glencliff to the summit of Moosilaukee and the trail down to Kinsman Notch really knocks it out of them. Many come into the whites overly optimistic about daily mileage and they end up several miles short (usually coming out near dark at Kinsman Notch whne they were planning for Kinsman Pond of Eliza Brook shelters, having to resupply for shorter days. I would expect the same from folks doing the climb up Katahdin after the relatively flat eastern 100 Mile Wilderness but expect adrenaline carries them up the Hunt Trail.

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by peakbagger View Post
    There is also the subjective aspect of steep climbs. Talk to many thru hikers and they will get attuned to certain daily elevation change and when a big ascent pops up, they seem to feel it much more. Western NH is not flat but in line with what was encoutered in VT but talk to many thru hikers and that climb up out of Glencliff to the summit of Moosilaukee and the trail down to Kinsman Notch really knocks it out of them. Many come into the whites overly optimistic about daily mileage and they end up several miles short (usually coming out near dark at Kinsman Notch whne they were planning for Kinsman Pond of Eliza Brook shelters, having to resupply for shorter days. I would expect the same from folks doing the climb up Katahdin after the relatively flat eastern 100 Mile Wilderness but expect adrenaline carries them up the Hunt Trail.
    I think that leads to a couple of benefits of going SOBO:

    1. By the time you come down Moosilaukee, you are pretty well physically conditioned.

    2. Psychologically, the easier days with longer miles pump you up.

    Disadvantage is of course, that you have to pass the gauntlet of Maine and the Whites first.

  19. #39
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    I'm a former land surveyor and I was actually thinking about compiling this info for my own personal use. But now since you've crunched the numbers for me, I don't have to! Thanks!

    And yes, almost a 50% grade (Webster Cliffs) sounds extreme but I'm sure it happens in places.

    I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in.

    ~John Muir

  20. #40
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    Webster Cliffs may be steep but its well built trail with lots of steps and mini switchbacks. Its near the road and an AMC facility so its gets a lot of attention with respect to trail construction. Compare it Mahoosuc Arm with its eroded out trailbed in spots where a hiker needs to climb up roots and I will take Webster Cliffs anytime.

    I missed out on the non closed Fire Wardens trail up the east side of Mt Speck in Grafton Notch, it was a long route of the AT, it was a eroded trench, in spots reportedly 10 feet deep that became a drainage further accelerating the erosion. The reroute that has been in place for 40 plus years is a great piece of work, mostly stone staircases and switchbacks.

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