Well, I appreciate your thoughts, Dr. O, but you might want to find out a little more info before you cast us off as a result of hearing one side of a story.
James
The sides of the story are irrelevant to the fact that there is no respect for people who cut people off from friends and family. There's no ambiguity here that would benefit from knowing your side. It's bad fruit. Knowing why it was picked doesn't change the fact it shouldn't have been.Originally Posted by James Case
Yes, that is something to think about. I put both groups in the same basket.Yahtzee---
Not to open a can of worms or anything, cuz to be frank, I'm not entirely sure what I think about the 12 Tribes....but around 2000 years ago, the power that-be in Roman-occupied Palestine viewed early Christianity as a dangerous cult, and something to be avoided, feared, and suppressed.
Something to think about maybe.
And I feel the same way about both groups. I do not want to join either one.
That said, I love LIFE. My best friend from this board considers himself a hardcore follower of Jesus. What any individual or group wants to do should be up to them, so long as it does not infringe on my own rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. (I know I am a closet libertarian.....ooops, I mean registered)
peace
MF
Well, speaking for myself, I DON'T put both of these groups in the same basket.
There's no shortage of information out there on the 12 Tribes. It's freely available to anyone who is interested. I suggest people try and keep an open mind, that they get better informed, and that they then make up their own minds about this.
And to James.......when I suggested people have a look at Matthew 7:15 to see what I really think of this situation, I'm afraid you entirely missed my point.
It's called "irony." Sorry you missed it.
Heh, heh...I caught it Jack. Wonder if LW did?
These sure ain't funny www.twelvetribes-ex.org/Heh, heh...I caught it Jack. Wonder if LW did?
Last edited by Frolicking Dinosaurs; 07-15-2007 at 07:22.
meant to say dirtybirds. cultists.
Last edited by Frolicking Dinosaurs; 07-15-2007 at 07:22.
James,
Before I respond to your post, I would like to ask you or any tribe member why when someone speaks out against something the tribe or a tribe member has done, the responds is always the same or similar, “You must be mistaken”. Yahtzee, spoke of one of your members, “I think the person Yahtzee was referring to was probably not from our communities. Maybe some other group of people.” Don’t you think that when people are speaking out, some of what they say might be true?
When I stated all your friends, family, etc are also members, I wasn’t wrong - your wife and son the only family you have are members. - “I have no family here except the woman I married here and the boy we are raising.” I’m not saying that to attack you or your family, but only to point out when we don’t expand our circle we as human become complacency – we accept things that normal we would not as a way of life.
“Yes, it does add debt when people move in with debt. They had debt and now we all have it shared between us. Yes, they sometimes to turn into working members that help bring the community income, but that income is also used to pay the bills for the food they eat and the utilities they consume, etc. If you have ever spent time with us, you might have noticed we are barely scraping by in most of our locations.”
I have spent time at the Twelve-Tribe and I believe I said the same thing. Different words but same meaning.
As for used to pay bills for food, utilities, etc., I think we should bring that down to prospective. Members have no major electric appliances (TV, radio, Dish-washer, etc - things found in a normal house hold.) The only electric utilities I saw were the lights in the house and a sink in the kitchen and bathroom and a computer in a barn used for business (Cambridge, NY). The housing is a bunk house style, several people per/room, little room for personal items/clothes. That their life style which is neither good nor bad. It’s just different. But don’t try to make it out to being a huge expense.
Is this because we send a bunch of money to some fund the leader or leaders only have access to? No, we actually don't. We are usually in this state because we pull lots of the people out of money-making positions and have them teach children in our home-school-type classrooms and have them do a bunch of other non-income-earning stuff like subsistence farming and remodeling our older houses, etc. I'm saying this as the one in charge of the money, too, not just as someone in the dark about it.
Please don’t try to make it to be some noble cause your doing. The teachers that I have seen both in NY and during the Washington, DC gathering have always been the women. “It is their role”, as it was explain to me. Women in the tribe are not trusted with the finances nor would they ever be place in a money making position.
Sundance, Estée Lauder, LL Bean one of the most well known company on this site refuse to carry Twelve Tribes products because of all things their child labor laws.
Sect Children are Used to Abuse - http://www.rickross.com/reference/tribes/tribes19.html
State Probes Cult in Child-Labor Scandal -http://www.rickross.com/reference/tribes/tribes17.html
Companies such as Estee Lauder and LL Bean, which are not particularly progressive, figured this out long ago and stopped carrying Twelve Tribes products. There is no context in which such hate speech is acceptable. And it shouldn’t take consultation with a “spiritual” or “moral leader” to figure this out.
Is the Twelve Tribes a Cult?
- http://www.goodmanson.com/2005-11/02...tribes-a-cult/ (bottom)
Should I go on?
Wolf
being a lone wolf is best. a community of 1
Well, all I know is that I used to be a community of one, and I'm a lot happier now that I'm not. You can say all these things about us, but it only makes me more convinced and more grateful that I love what I'm doing and don't have any regret. It's too bad people act like this. They treated their Messiah the same way...
Sounds like you got a good thing going.
So why is it so important to you what Wolf23000, L.Wolf, myself, or anybody else on White Blaze thinks of you or your group?
Skids
Insanity: Asking about inseams over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein, (attributed)
You rationalise the illegal exploitation of children by explaining the womb this group provides you is comfortable to you?
What's a reasonable, unbiased person supposed to think of that?
James Case, I must say that you seem very calm and self-assured compared to some of your detractors.
It also appears that neither side has convinced the other of anything. Perhaps if you invited them to stay in your community for a few weeks (working or paying, of course), they might see it for themselves and be able to form an opinion based on their own experiences.
You are definitely all invited to come and spend some time getting to know what it's really like. All the accusations will most likely be dispelled if you do. They definitely did for me.
thanks, appalachain tater,
James
Come on James, As one of the leaders, I’m sure you were aware of this, the news reports, the state and federal investigations, the fines the community had to pay, the child abuse, etc, the separating members from the friends or family, but because they are not part of the tribe?
You say you love children. Below is a link of a 2005 court case that the twelve tribe fought up to VT High Court. One of you own members, Stanzione was ordered in 1991 to pay $50 per week in child support when she and her husband divorced and he left the religious community to return to Vermont along with three of the couple's five children, according to court papers. Anyone who has kids knows $50 a week to support kids is not a lot of money. Rather than tribe paying the child support like they were order to, the tribe fought it in court before finally told by the VT High Court to pay up.
http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050905/NEWS/509050320/1003&template=printart
You can hide in your farm and pretend this stuff doesn’t happen, but this stuff is for real! This is not stuff that just made up. These are facts. It scares me that places like the twelve tribe are out there. You can talk about your love in God all you want but what kind of God loving man would be any part of a community that has been found guilty of abusing children or do what ever it took to avoid taking care of three of their tribe members children?
Actions speak louder than words. This is what your tribe stands for.
Wolf
Appalachian Tater,
I have spent time with the tribe, visit them in VT or WashingtonDC, on several occasions even spent spend the night before. How do you think I know all this stuff? Not everything is as it seems.
Wolf
That is why I said "some of your detractors" instead of "all of your detractors" or "your detractors".
Obviously you aren't going to change your opinion, nor is James Case, so there is little use in arguing with each other.
All these news posts and weblinks are just missing one thing: the truth. If you believe everything you read on the web, please don't visit our communities. You wouldn't fit in. No children have ever been abused in any of the twelve tribes communities I've lived in. The one person I have lived with who committed such acts was kicked out long ago and is now in jail. And my friend Ms. Stanzione was definitely justified taking her case the high court. If you're going to accuse someone. Please accuse someone who's done something wrong. She hasn't.
I just want you all to know that there's plenty of negative things said about all the best things on Earth. I know better than to believe everything in the press and so should you. The only way to know what we're all like is to see it yourself. Those who already have and still don't like us are free to stay away. We aren't looking to convince anyone to join our ranks unless they want to. I don't plan on posting anything else on here about this topic because I really don't see the point. If you have questions, feel free to ask, but as for this back and forth stuff, I'm all done.
James
The repeating mantra here. "come to us". Yeah right.
Why are you leaving now? Kitchen getting too hot? You can live by the strict code of the old bible or be left behind as not worthy, right? You must stay and defend or be left behind by the rest of the "chosen ones" on their journey to everlasting peace in heaven.
You will always believe in him, always expect the best of him, and always stand your ground in defending him." (1 Corinthians 13:4-7
James. Do you hike?
Skids
Insanity: Asking about inseams over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein, (attributed)
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