Winter AT Start 2007

[gardenville]

"woodsy" has a thread about wildlife on the AT in Maine NOW. I hope he will see this and responds. I didn't want to post on his thread as my question is not really about his topic.

I have been getting myself ready for an AT Thur-Hike to start in January 2007 - NOBO or SOBO? I have wanted to do an AT SOBO starting the first of January for a number of years. The main thing stopping me now is being able to get really current trail condition information about the AT in Maine between now and through the end of January so I can decide if it might be possible. Then I would need addition weather/trail info for NH and south maybe as far as Mass.

I was reading the thread by "woodsy" about the wildlife he saw on his recent hike in Maine and I decided to post my questions about a January Maine start. I have done enough planning to know where all the shelters are and where the trail crosses the Hwy's between Grafton Notch and Baxter. If I start in Maine I would start at the NH Hwy 2 trailhead (AT mile 297.9 from Katahdin) near Gorham, NH and go north to Baxter. I also know I can get shuttles between all the Maine AT trailheads if I need to get off the trail for a few days.

Woodsy - or Others:-
What is the condition of the AT where you are located now? Do you think a person could start at the NH / Maine State Line about the first of January and get to Baxter on the AT in 30 days or so? I know that a lot depends on the amount of snow you get but what is YOURS or OTHERS thought about the condition of the AT during that time frame?

I have wanted to try something like this for several years and I have time this January/February. Not to imply it would take 2 months but I have that much time. I can try the AT in Maine and maybe some of NH and south or just start at Springer and go north for 60 to 75 days.

If a did a SOBO and the weather was OK I would go back to my NH starting point and continue south till the second week of March. Yes, I know the White Mtns are a big concern. I have been around Mt Washington twice in the winter and I know how hard the Whites can be. Maybe it is enough to just do Maine and then go to Springer and head north.

I have a bunch of medical and dental appointments the last of March that I need to go home for. When they are finished I can restart where ever I got off the trail - NOBO or SOBO - and continue till I am finished.

One way or another I expect to start NOBO or SOBO the first of January 2007.

[Nean]

Just my opinion, I don't know you, but see your age. I wouldn't recommend a fit 25 year old start a sobo in Jan. Try it from Springer and if that is too easy for you- flip.

[rafe]

Hello, Gardenville... I'm noticing not just your age but where you're from. Have you been to northern New England? In winter? Have you climbed any hills over 4000 feet, in New England, in winter? Have you ever spent a night on one of those hills, out of doors, in winter?

If I'm not mistaken, it was your thread that I so rudely barged into -- the one asking about an AT thru hike with 3-5 resupplies. People are taking you seriously. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm wondering if you have any clue of what you're up against.

Please understand. People die on these mountains, every year. Smart people. People who think they're smarter than the mountains. There's a plaque on the wall of the AMC lodge at Pinkham Notch. I don't think you want your name on it. Or do you?

[Wolf - 23000]

Gardenville,

It is possible to do Maine in 30 days in January. I did it in 2005.

Before I go any farther, Maine in the winter is no joke. Unless you have a huge amount of experence, DO NOT TRY IT!!! I did it alone. A normal thru-hiker does not have knowledge to complete such a hike. I`m not saying that to put anyone down or put myself above anyone but when it below 0, and you're standing in 2 feet of water, what do you do. Or the mountains you climbing is one sheet of ice, do that for 10 miles/all day. Cook your food, within 20 minutes your hot food becomes frozen.

As I said, winter hiking Maine is no joke but if your set on doing it I'll help you out.

Wolf

P.S. The entire 30 days I saw very little wildlife - 1 moose on a road and a fox on top of Mount Washington.

[Frosty]

Echoing what others said (and will say), this is not something to attempt without experience winter backpacking in ADKS, Whites or Maine. The cold is so dibilitating it is hard to imagine if you haven't been there at night. As Wolf said, cooked food freezes quickly and you can't even remove your mitts to eat, etc. Even if you are exerienced and have snowshoes, crampons, -10* or -20* bag, etc etc, this isn't a trivial trip.

However, on the assumption you have experience winter camping in below zero weather, to get an idea of trail conditions, go to:

http://www.viewsfromthetop.com/index-vftt.html

click on trail conditions, then MAINE

There aren't many that coincide with the AT, but there are some. Here's one for Carlo Col/Goose Eye. This is near NH border and note that the hikers couldn't find the trail from Goose Eye to Carlo Col:

Trail: Goose Eye Mt. via the Goose Eye Trail
Date Hiked: 12-09-06

Conditions: The road was plowed, except for the little road off to the right where you park, but we got there. There was more snow the higher you got. About 5" down low which filled in the mud. The 2 crossings were a little challenging, but they were frozen just enough to get across. Actually we spent time breaking & finding the trail. Sorry, no snowshoes needed! As you got up there, had to put on the crampons. Plenty of ice & a lot more snow. Some 3' drifts. Out on the ledges, we were fully exposed to a steady, very strong wind. It was nice that it was blowing from behind us. But we were covered with gear. WINTER came to mind! We tried to find the trail to head over to Carlo col, but it was very low visibility, and we would spend a lot of time trail finding and breaking trail as everything was buried in snow. So with that & the wind howling, we just went back down Goose Eye.

Special Required Equipment: Crampons and full winter gear.

Comments: We did get to use the headlamps for the last mile. It was a nice day to get back into winter with Dave, Julie and last but not least Diane.


Submitted by: WildPeaks

[gardenville]

[QUOTE=terrapin_too;285055]Hello, Gardenville... I'm noticing not just your age but where you're from. ETC Quote]

A - Where a person now lives says nothing about where that person may have lived at another time of his or her life. I spent 28 years as an Army Infantryman and have lived in a few cold places. I am not at new-be at hiking / backpacking in cold weather. In my world you don't live to be 66 by being foolish.

Q - Have you been to northern New England?
A - Yes

Q - In winter?
A- Yes

Q - Have you climbed any hills over 4000 feet, in New England, in winter?
A - Yes, Mt Jefferson - Mt Washington and others several times in winter.

Q - Have you ever spent a night on one of those hills, out of doors, in winter?
A - Yes, But I don't camp above treeline. Normally used the Perch when hiking on that end of the Mt Washington area.

Q - If I'm not mistaken, it was your thread that I so rudely barged into -- the one asking about an AT thru hike with 3-5 resupplies. People are taking you seriously. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm wondering if you have any clue of what you're up against.
A - The question about 3 to 5 resupplies was a topic from backpackinglight.com and generated a few good comments and a bunch of what is normal for WB members. Non answer - answers don't bother me.

Q - Please understand. People die on these mountains, every year. Smart people. People who think they're smarter than the mountains. There's a plaque on the wall of the AMC lodge at Pinkham Notch. I don't think you want your name on it. Or do you?
A - I know how easy it is to die on or near Mt Washington. One March long ago I was up there the season 5 people died. I have also been a volunteer caretaker for the Maine AT Club one summer at the old Avery Shelter in August and it snowed one night.

Why do you think I am asking questions about trail conditions during the January time period.

[Nean]

Write me into your will and have a nice trip!

[rafe]

FWIW, a report from last Saturday, 12/9. A friend from work -- about 30 years old, built like a tank, and has spent the summer bagging the 4000 footers. His last two peaks to bag were Lincoln and Lafayette. I was half thinking about joining him and his girlfriend, and wimped out.

His report: there was a foot of loose snow on the trail, from the parking lot on up. Temps were in the teens and the wind was a steady 30 mph or so. They went up Falling Waters trail, over the ridge, and down Bridle Path. It took them 9.5 hours to do the loop, with day packs. IIRC, the loop is around 8 miles or so. About 3000 feet from road to summit. They did under 1 MPH, with day packs. Walked by headlamp for the last hour or so.

Don't forget -- we're not at "peak cold" yet, by a longshot. And this was in New Hampshire, not Maine. He showed up Monday at work with a terrific cold, which he insists is not from the hike.

[Frosty]

[QUOTE=gardenville;285067]

Hello, Gardenville... I'm noticing not just your age but where you're from. ETC Quote]

A - Where a person now lives says nothing about where that person may have lived at another time of his or her life. I spent 28 years as an Army Infantryman and have lived in a few cold places. I am not at new-be at hiking / backpacking in cold weather. In my world you don't live to be 66 by being foolish.

Q - Have you been to northern New England?
A - Yes

Q - In winter?
A- Yes

Q - Have you climbed any hills over 4000 feet, in New England, in winter?
A - Yes, Mt Jefferson - Mt Washington and others several times in winter.

Q - Have you ever spent a night on one of those hills, out of doors, in winter?
A - Yes, But I don't camp above treeline. Normally used the Perch when hiking on that end of the Mt Washington area.

Q - If I'm not mistaken, it was your thread that I so rudely barged into -- the one asking about an AT thru hike with 3-5 resupplies. People are taking you seriously. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm wondering if you have any clue of what you're up against.
A - The question about 3 to 5 resupplies was a topic from backpackinglight.com and generated a few good comments and a bunch of what is normal for WB members. Non answer - answers don't bother me.

Q - Please understand. People die on these mountains, every year. Smart people. People who think they're smarter than the mountains. There's a plaque on the wall of the AMC lodge at Pinkham Notch. I don't think you want your name on it. Or do you?
A - I know how easy it is to die on or near Mt Washington. One March long ago I was up there the season 5 people died. I have also been a volunteer caretaker for the Maine AT Club one summer at the old Avery Shelter in August and it snowed one night.

Why do you think I am asking questions about trail conditions during the January time period.

Sounds like you know what you are talking about. Good luck to you, you are doing something I wouldn't attempt. I have a -25* bag and do winter camp a little, max of two days at a time and it always seems like it is more a case of, "Hey, whaddaya know? I survived." rather than, "Boy, that was fun."

Let us know how things work out, temps and conditions, that sort of thing, and please be careful; don't make the next edition of NOT WITHOUT PERIL.

[gardenville]

Wolf - 2300,
Thanks for the offer to help.

Frosty,
Thanks, This is just the kind of information I am looking for. The "views from the top" web site is a good one and I have bookmarked it. The only way I would try this is in a low snow situation where I could find the trail without a lot of trouble. I have all the necessary gear for real cold temperatures but that kind of cold is not much fun. I know what it is like to have my food freeze faster than I could eat it.

terrapin_too,
I look at the Mt Washington web cams and read their comments and their forum every morning. The weather this year has been funny. Snow - then rain - then snow. I was starting to believe Al Gore, not really.

I will give myself a few days to watch the weather.

[woodsy]

[quote=gardenville;285043

I was reading the thread by "woodsy" about the wildlife he saw on his recent hike in Maine and I decided to post my questions about a January Maine start.

Woodsy - or Others:-
What is the condition of the AT where you are located now? Do you think a person could start at the NH / Maine State Line about the first of January and get to Baxter on the AT in 30 days or so? I know that a lot depends on the amount of snow you get but what is YOURS or OTHERS thought about the condition of the AT during that time frame?




One way or another I expect to start NOBO or SOBO the first of January
2007.[/quote]


Gardenville, heed the advice others have posted on the severity of mountain conditions here in January, the worst month for low temps and windy conditions, especially towards the end of January(The DEAD of winter). And I hope my post on wildlife didn't mislead you, I was referring to tracks I saw except for the Ruffed Grouse(partridge).That particular area I was in was heavily populated with game though(evergreen habitat)
Current conditions in Maine: With rain falling now, anyone should expect that conditions will worsen and ice will cover most everything when temps dip to below freezing again. The warm winters of late have made for treacherous hiking/climbing in winter and specialized gear is necessary.Once things ice up it takes a good amount of snow in order to get traction with boots or snowshoes w/crampons. That snow did not come last winter, not enough anyway.
If you go NOBO from springer you'll probably get a good enough taste of winter and less chance of failure/complications.
Hope all the info you get at WB helps you make a wise decision.

[rafe]

[quote=gardenville;285067]

In my world you don't live to be 66 by being foolish.

I wouldn't know, I'm only 54.

Sorry to trouble you, but do notice I'm not the only one thinking the idea is just a teensy bit reckless. Do what you must. Be careful. I have nothing to offer except my sincere concern for your safety.

[Jack Tarlin]

Gardenville:

Am not going to comment on what I think of your venture, as this is not remotely the sort of information you were looking for.

For information on Maine, I think the most informed people on this website are WalkinHome, Teej, and Weary, all of whom you could contact privately. You should also contact Steve Longley (207-663-4441) in re. to assistance in crossing the Kennebec River at Caratunk.

For Northern New Hampshire I'd get in touch with the Old Fhart, who has probably spent more time in the White Mountains during wintertime than anyone else here.

Iceman95 is also very knowledgable about New Hampshire in the wintertime.

For Vermont information, I'd contact Minerva/Mrs. Gorp.

As to your other questions, most folks take 21-26 days to hike Maine in Summer/Early Fall. I suspect it'll take you significantly longer to hike Maine in January. (Wolf 23000's 30-day Maine trip is impressive, but it should be pointed out, with no dis-respect whatsoever, that he is 30 years your junior and is in remarkable physical condition. I think 35-45 days is amuch more reasonable expectation).

[the_iceman]

I have winter camped for years in the Whites and all over New England.


I would not go into the Whites without snowshoes that time of year. I use backcountry skis with climbing skins as well and snow shoes in camp or when the powder is just too deep.

Breaking your own trail in deep snow is exhausting. You will burn calories and drip with sweat and your heart will be close to blowing out of you chest. If you make 1 mile an hour in deep snow you will be cruising. The days are short and water pumps freeze. You go through fuel and water at an alarming rate.

When you stop working that hard the cold sets in like a freight train. You must get sheltered and dry very quickly and get warm fluids in.

I have crawled 1 mile on my hands and knees on Bond Cliff because I could not stand in the wind and I could not survive above tree line. The winds were reported at a steady 65 MPH with gusts of 100 mph.

I have seen Madison Shelter under a snow drift with only part of one wall exposed. The ground nearby was blown clean.

One time I was so exhausted I leaned back on a rock practically reclined waiting for my partner to fix a boot lace or a gaiter. I fell asleep. If I had been alone hopefully I would not have stopped but if I had I would have died right there.

That being said we always have a great time and I have the pictures to prove it. I never leave camp without shelter and tell my wife to never call for rescue. It breaks my heart when one of the White Mountain Rescue Team dies trying to save some one unprepared. I take two days extra food and fuel and keep telling myself, "know your limits" and live to hike another day.

P.S. Bring a backup light and batteries as well. It is really hard to find camp in the dark when the trees are caked with ice and the blazes are hard to see. The ground can be completely level from snow depth with no signs of the trail. Signs to side trails may be under feet of snow.

The Iceman

[rafe]

It is really hard to find camp in the dark when the trees are caked with ice and the blazes are hard to see. The ground can be completely level from snow depth with no signs of the trail. Signs to side trails may be under feet of snow.

I have next-to-zero experience with winter hiking and camping, but this was one of the first things that struck me, the few times I've tried. Many of the usual visual cues that mark the trail in summer are hidden in winter. Not just the blazes, but the footpath itself. And I'm talking about broad daylight, or what little there is of it, in winter.

I have no fears at all camping/hiking solo in summer or fall. But it soon became clear to me that doing the same in winter could be very, very dangerous. Call me a weenie, I won't mind.

[the_iceman]

A quick note on low snow conditions:

I was in the Pemi off the Wilderness Trail heading for Desolation Shelter. President’s Day weekend. We were 3 miles from the road and had come in on skis. The 5 of us were coming from different locations so that was our gathering point. We dug a trench shelter in the 2 to 3 feet of snow on the ground and covered it with a tarp.

The next morning we awoke to 23 inches of fresh, deep, hard to walk in, powder. The ground might have been bare the day before, it made no difference. We had around 7 miles to hike, ski, or snow shoe along an old rail road bed for most of the way. We took turns breaking trail. One person had to have on snow shoes to break trail. Another hiker shadowed us for hours letting us do the work. We decided on a lunch break just around a bend to let him catch up. Now we had 6 people to share the load.

Around 2:00 two couples came cruising up our freshly broken trail on skis and asked to pass. We said sure but the trail is not broken. "No Problem, we can handle it" They returned in 5 minutes.

We made the shelter at dusk over 7 miles of relatively flat ground. Our plan was to ascend Mt. Carrigan from the backside the next day. We could not get 100 feet up the trail due to the mini avalanches we were creating.

[rafe]

Our plan was to ascend Mt. Carrigan from the backside the next day. We could not get 100 feet up the trail due to the mini avalanches we were creating.

The back side of Carrigain is seriously steep, as I recall.

[Frosty]

I have next-to-zero experience with winter hiking and camping, but this was one of the first things that struck me, the few times I've tried. Many of the usual visual cues that mark the trail in summer are hidden in winter. Not just the blazes, but the footpath itself. And I'm talking about broad daylight, or what little there is of it, in winter.

I remember once my wife and I were going to go over the A-Z trail to Zealand. It had snowed two feet the night before and no one had broken trail yet that morning. Even though I'd been on that trail a zillion times, I couldn't find my way. The blazes were all buried in the snow and the low end of the trail is hardwood forest with no visible "corridor" to follow. Eventaully we gave up, but I remember thinking that it was good that it hadn't snowed the NEXT night. We'd be at Zealand trying to find our way back and probably would have had to take the Zealand road and hitch to our car. It's a whole different world when the snow gets deeper than the blazes are high.

[woodsy]

Started at Rt 4 mid afternoon with a friend one march day, headed for saddleback, on to junior and shelter at poplar ridge. Final destination rt27 beyond sugarloaf.
Started drizzling shortly after starting, snowing pretty good(wet) on saddleback, navigating by cairns when we could find them. In the clouds and snow, headed for saddleback junior...deep snow ,started getting dark, now the visibility is 20 feet. Say, where did those white blazes go, everything is white.
summited junior, not much view in the dark, snow, whiteout. Headed for shelter at poplar ridge, now heavy drizzle and fog, trouble staying on trail, had to backtrack once or twice to relocate trail . We knew the shelter was near, just couldn't see anything and somehow stumbled on to her.Ahhhhh, home for the night. WE were wet, cold and hungry, got food, hot drink and slept.
next day, back at it, down to oberton stream and back up to lone mtn., On to spaulding mtn shelter, I am beat from deep snow and vertical footage but manage to muster enough strength to summit sugarloaf. Can't walk any further, we roll out mattress 's and tobogan down the Narrow Gauge ski trail(world class downhill ski run). It's pretty smooth sailing although a bit too fast down the headwall . My friend hits a rock with his air matress and it deflates with some cussing overheard. Finally reach the lodge and the call is made for a ride.....survived another one, pain included.
Hey Gardenville, I know this is your thread and my post does pertain to winter hiking so hope you don't mind, some others have been posting about their winter trips , couldn't resist telling this tale. Good luck to you whatever you decide to do.

[gardenville]

Hey Gardenville, I know this is your thread and my post does pertain to winter hiking so hope you don't mind, some others have been posting about their winter trips , couldn't resist telling this tale. Good luck to you whatever you decide to do.

I good winter story is always a good story. I should have named the Thread "Hiking the AT in Maine during the Winter".