Utah Settles With Boy Scouts
Looks like there's a couple of new merit badges in Utah....... check writing and tree planting.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/A...=1&oref=slogin
[COLOR="SeaGreen"] [I]"Mama always said there's an awful lot you can tell about a person by their shoes. Where they're going, where they've been. I've worn lots of shoes."
(Forrest Gump; Greenbow, Alabama)[/I] [/COLOR]
Is it true the scouts blamed for the fire were from Utah's only Catholic boy scout troop? If a Mormon troop had started the blaze Utah would have given them $600,000 for clearing land for future development.
Don't eat the yellow snow. O
Moxie, that is an interesting question -- I would like to know the answer to it as well. I would like to point out they violated BSA's policy big time by not having at least two adults present. BSA calls it two deep leadership. Doesn't seem quite fair to blame the boys when it should of been the adults shouldering that blame. Would it prevented the fire?? Who knows.....
Boy Scout Troops do not come in religious "flavors" such as mormon, catholic, etc. The Troop may meet at a catholic church, or the scouts may be predominently catholic, but it would not be a "catholic" Troop.Originally Posted by moxie
Regards,
-MacGyver
GA-->ME 2005
Being involved with Scouts, I find it strange there weren't any adults present. I used to teach some Scouts and they would go out on their own but they never told the adults.
LDS troops are a bit different. Most of the ones I have seen even have LDS on their flag. I knew a non-LDS who was in an LDS troop and he thought it was an extension of their youth program. None of the LDS troops participate in our regional Scout activities.
It's not wrong. It's just different.
Having spent some time in Utah and southern Idaho, I am of the opinion that everything is "flavored."
i worked at a boy scout camp in NH for 6 years, and nothing against LDS troops, but the one troop that caused the most mischief was always the LDS troop. again, nothing against LDS, but theeir religious prefference isnt anything to base their behavior off of. it was a suprise to me as well.
From the article, it appears the lack of adult supervision and the fact that the boys built a fire while there was a ban on all fires due to dry conditions is the reason for the monetary award.
If this was not a BSA sanctioned event, the time spent at the event would not have counted toward the badge, but indications were that the time was to be counted by troop leaders. This is what made the BSA culpable in this case.The state alleged in its lawsuit that the wildfire started at a campsite where 17 Scouts, ages 12 to 14, were working on a wilderness-survival badge in the Uinta Mountains in eastern Utah. There were two 15-year-old counselors but no adults present at the campsite.
The Scouts said they believed any fire had been extinguished. At that time, in June 2002, there was a state ban on fires because of dry conditions.
That may be true today but when I was a kid in Waterville , Maine there were three troops, one all Catholic, one all Methodist, and one all Baptist. The Catholic troop all went to mass tocether and even were able to recieve communion on their trips, The two protestent troops also wemt to their respective services together. I will not say it was impossible for a kid outside the church to join but it never happened and if it had I am sure the scout outside the church would have been uncomfotrable. There were not enough Jewish kids to form a troop so they never had the scout experience. I do hope it is different today because I got alot out of scouting. My introduction to the Applacuian Trail came on an early hike with my troop on Katahdin. Boy, it was a very different place in 1948. I even remember a real slot machine in the then concession Baxter Park Store.
Don't eat the yellow snow. O
Since the thread is already hijacked...
I am a Cub Scout Cubmaster. There is still, to some degree "denominational" units. Though not officially recognized as such by the BSA, they do exist. This is primarily the case when the Chartered Organization Representative is active in both Scouts and the Chartered Organization. For example, if a particular unit is chartered by a Catholic church, and the Charter Rep is both an active scouter AND an active parishoner, the unit will often times take on a personality similar to that of the Chartered Organization. This is generalization I know, but I still see it.
Additionally, the Catholics and LDS both have setup a good deal of "organization" for scouting. Most (if not all?) Catholic Dioscese have a "Catholic Commission on Scouting" for example here. The LDS have a similar hierarchy.
The intreresting part, for me, is that BSA pushes units to seek out organizations to charter with. They also seem to favor churches over other civic groups. In my opinion, this is for no other reason than for fundraising. Once a church or other civic group "partners" with a Scout unit, that opens the door for BSA to launch a "Friends of Scouting" program in that organization. Somewhere in the mid 1980's, scouting ceased to "be about the boys" and started to "be about the buck$".
My unit has purposefully resisted out local council's instance on chartering with a local church. Not because we think churches are bad, quite the contrary. I am an active member in my church (Methodist) and firmly believe that Duty to God is the most important aspect of Scouting. However, I feel that it is each boys personal choice to seek out who God is to them, and choose a place of worship appropriately, without the influence, or even perception of influence of one particular denomination or church. It is for that reason that my unit is "self chartered", a staus that the BSA does not take kindly to. Our workaround was to form our own "civic group" called "Concerned Citizens for Pack XX" and select it as our Chartered Organization. The result is a highly successful Cub Scout Pack with over 70 active boys, some of which are Catholic, others are of various Prodestant faiths, still others are of other faiths.
Last edited by Midway Sam; 03-08-2007 at 10:20.
Boy Scouts can work on merit badges without adults present or without it being a 'sanctioned" event. You don't need a scout leader present when you do the work for a Coin Collecting Merit Badge, for instance. Many badges can be earned with parents and teachers. The scout will have to present the results of his work to the troop, and give a short talk or demonstrate that he met the requirements of that particular badge, but the work itself needn't be part of a sanctioned event.
When a boy joins a troop, he does not sign over his life. He can still go hiking and camping other than on troop outings. He may do so with other boys who may or may not be members of his troop.
I think this whole thing is pretty bogus. I think that if a random handful of kids did this, they would be talked to, but they would not be sued by the Federal Government.
If they tried to start a forest fire, THEN they should be sued. If they doused their campfire and put dirt on it, it is vindictive to say they are at fault for not runnng a hand through the coals. How many people have ever done that with a campfire?
No good can come of this suit that I can see, except to keep youngsters out of the woods.
Frosty
Frosty, while I can see kids working on some badges with teachers and parents, the wilderness badge involves kids camping out in the wilderness. How would the BSA know they were learning and using property techniques and practices unless a leader was with them? In this case, they ignored a fire ban and started a forest fire by failing to exercise the extreme caution merited by the very dry conditions. Ignore fire bans and not practicing extreme caution with fire in very dry conditions are not wilderness techniques I would want my children to learn.
I know some will defend BSA no matter what, but they dropped the ball on this one and they will have to pay for it. Hopefully, they will re-train leaders to prevent this from happening again. Personally, I think making the hands-on activities leading to a wilderness badge require trained adult leaders would be a good start.
Point of order: There were Scout leaders present. Supervising adults were absent.
You never turned around to see the frowns
On the jugglers and the clowns
When they all did tricks for you.
Sorry DWM - I was under the impression that Scout leaders had to be adults. Perhaps that is what needs to change.
Alright here is my 2 cents worth...We live in such a society where it is almost commonplace to "pass judgement" "fingerpoint" and "SUE" that is entirely out of hand. If a person farts in the wrong tune someone is gonna sue! That being said....the article states that the issue had been "settled" for a certain amount. It also states that the state is as well going after the Scouts individually if i'm not mistaken. That is wrong!!! If it is settled then it is settled. These are 15 year old boys who are still learning...key words "boys" and "learning". They made a huge mistake no doubt. The issue has been settled and that is that.....or is it?
If we are going to do this to these boys and to scouting lets sue or charge to the fullest extent of the law every climber that has to be rescued off of a mountain, every hiker that has to be bailed out, every sailor that has to be pulled out of the water and every old lady that her cat has got stuck in a tree. No more freebies, no more "I'm sorry" or "I didn't know"....let's sue them all charge 'em all to their fingers are bloody!
BSA has a insurance policy that covers any scouts or scouters that have an incedent as long as they have followed the proper procedures. Trip tickets, proper "adult" supervision, 2 deep leadership, and follow the "Guide To Safe Scouting Regulations as listed in the GTSS handbook. Scouts working on a merit badge need not have any of these guidlines followed if they are working on a merit badge. All they have to have is a merit badge counslor, which is responsible for keeping their blue card not going with them. Merit badges are worked on in most cases individually. Once a scout finishes a "requirement" then they arrange to meet their counslor and show proper proof that this has been done and it is signed off.
In scouting we try to lead boys from being "dependant" young boys to being "independant" young adult leaders. We try to instill in them along the way the knowledge to help them make ethical and moral decisions over a lifetime. They however do make mistakes along the way! Has a doctor ever made a mistake? How about a car mechanic? How about us as individuals....hard as it is to amit we all have!
I'm sorry that the woods got burnt. I'm sorry that this was some inexperienced youth that happened to be Scouts that did it. I'm sure they feel worse about this than anyone involved. Sueing these kids for millions of dollars ain't going to bring that forrest back!
Youth leadership with adult supervision is the foundation of the Scouting program. I'm positive someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but anytime the word 'leader' is used in the Handbook it refers to a Scout (youth) never a Scouter (adult).
This may be just semantics.
You never turned around to see the frowns
On the jugglers and the clowns
When they all did tricks for you.
Hi, Sam - I'll continue the thread hijack! I agree with most of what you said here, but have a little different spin on some of it. Background: I've been involved as a Scout leader for 12 years, with 3 boys going through the program. I'm now a committee chair for a fairly successful troop, and have been dealing with exactly this issue in the last few weeks. I had a mom confront me about her son's participation in a chapel service on the USS Yorktown a few weeks ago. Turns out she's a practicing pagan (lordy, the south's a changing! of course she ain't from around here
), and doesn't want her son involved in Christian services. I've been in discussions with the Council Membership Chair (who's clarifying a couple of issues with National - but our conclusion is that her son's participation in the troop is perfectly acceptable as long as he can answer the questions about belief in God and can describe how he practices his duty to God as taught by this family) about this, and have some pretty good information....
This is based on how the unit is chartered, and the policies of the chartering organization. In my area, some units are chartered by churches to be an explicit part of the ministry of that church. They expect church doctrine to be taught in scout meetings, and the SM or CM to be a member of the church, generally the Chartered Organization Rep is also the unit committee chair. The LDS churches in the area have adopted Boy Scouts as their youth program - boys going to their church's 'youth group' meeting are going to a Boy Scout meeting. Parents rotate in and out of Scouting leadership positions as they're appointed by the church (and some are really thrilled about this
Hmm... I was my district's FOS family enrollment campaign chairman for three years (when I was chairman we had ~60 troops and ~60 packs in the district), and really don't see this as an issue here. We conduct FOS family enrollment programs within all units, but that has no impact on the chartering organization. The family enrollment campaign is generally held at the troop's Christmas banquet or the pack's Blue and Gold banquet. FOS family enrollment is an important part of funding the council budget - and has become an even more important part as United Way funding has become a smaller and smaller part of the council funding (not because it's gone down here, but because it hasn't kept up with the explosive growth of scouting in the council). If your council's FOS programs are being conducted differently, that's a council issue, not a BSA issue. I know that our council's FOS programs are considered as being very successful by national because I helped the Field Director here prepare a presentation about our program a few years ago. He presented it to some type of national meeting of professional scouters.
The big issue in our area is simply finding a place for a unit to meet. We are a very densely populated suburb of Atlanta, and have difficulty in finding places for new units to meet. For example, the church our troop meets at charters 2 troops, 2 packs, and several girl scout groups. Given this, all churches (and any other community organization with a place to meet) are a 'target' for chartering a scout unit, but I have never seen an example of them being considered more desireable than any other community organization with a place for a unit to meet.
I'm surprised that you would be getting pressure from the Council to change to chartering with a church (as opposed to any other community group) instead of your current arrangement. This sounds like an issue with how your council is being run, not a BSA issue.
Oh, did I mention that my 17 y.o. had his SM Conference for Eagle Scout last week?
Steve
Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time.
You are right about the foundation of scouting DWM with youth leaders running the troop. As far as the book is concerned tho, page 24 of my handbook (which is edition 11) shows the "Leader Badges", and it includes Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster which are adults.
Looks to me though, that some boys went out on their own to work on this merit badge, and screwed up. BSA should not have been held accountable for this.
I didn't see anywhere in the article that the Boy Scouts sent the kids going off by themselves. Perhaps I missed it.
Most of the WIlderness Badge requires a "Show that you know how to ..." which of course would require a scout leader to be present if the showing was performed outdoors. If the scout leader intended to sign off based on the boys being out by themselves, this would be wrong. But I didn't read in the article that this was the case.
Many times scouts get together by themselves (they are friends, after all, who live near each other and often go to school together) to work on requirements (which is what the article said they were doing). It doesn't get them the badge. It gets them practice. Knot-tying and first aid were two badges I remember my scouts often working on together outside of the troop meetings. Most did not attempt to tie a bowline for the first time when demonstrating in front of me how it is done.
I'm not saying the kids should have known better. I'm saying sueing them for $12 million bucks is inappropriate. Community service, and lots of it, would do more for the boys, and to help prevent future fires, than adding money to the federal coffers.
With all merit badges, the scout generally gives a report to the troop (and often parents) describing what he did and what he learned, have a demonstartion, and then answers questions from the Scoutmaster. Merit badges aren't (or aren't supposed to be) a check-off list of things to do. Many badges do have an outdoor activity requirement to them. The Wilderness Badge does, and these would have to be done with the Scout leaders, or if with parents, show the troop that the kids know what to do. The goal of badges is to teach, not to collect trophies (though admittedly the scouts don't usually look at it that way).
Here are the requirements of the merit badge. As as Scoutmaster, the only requirement I see that needs to be done outdoors is building and sleeping in a shelter. The others can be done outside, and are better done that way, but they don't HAVE to be. Note that there is no requirement to build a fire, and that most requirement are "Show that you know how to..." emphasizing learning.
Show that you know first aid for injuries or illnesses likely to occur in backcountry outings, including hypothermia, heatstroke, heat exhaustion, frostbite, dehydration, sunburn, stings, tick bites, snakebite, and blisters.
Describe from memory the priorities for survival in a backcountry or wilderness location.
Describe ways to
avoid panic and
maintain a high level of morale when lost.
Tell what you would do to survive in the following environments:
Cold and snowy
Wet (forest)
Hot and dry (desert)
Windy (mountains or plains)
Water (ocean or lake)
Make up a personal survival kit and be able to explain how each item in it is useful
Show that you can start fires using three methods other than matches.
Do the following:
Tell five different ways of attracting attention when lost.
Show how to use a signal mirror.
Describe from memory five international ground-to- air signals and
tell what they mean.
Show that you can find and improvise a natural shelter minimizing
the damage to the environment.
Spend a night in your shelter.
Explain how to protect yourself against insects, reptiles, and bears.
Show three ways to treat water found in the outdoors to prepare it for drinking.
Show that you know the proper clothing to wear in your area on an overnight in extremely hot weather and extremely cold weather.
Explain why it usually is not wise to eat edible wild plants or wildlife in a wilderness survival situation.
Frosty
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