AMC's Reputation

[weary]

One is required to stay at fee sites between Gorham and Grafton??

That's a looong way.

If this regulation actually exists, Rick, please print it, because I was unaware of it.

Or if I mis-read your post, and this regulation only applies to PART of that stretch, please provide details and exact locations..

Thanx.

I don't know about New Hampshire, but the general rule for the Maine Bureau of Parks and Land on the public reserved lands is that one can camp most anywhere. Restrictions apply only to particularly fragile areas. That applies from the New Hampshire border to the boundary of Grafton Notch State Park.

There are probably special rules for Speck Pond, where AMC employs a caretaker. But staying at Carlos Col, Full Goose and areas in between has always been both possible and free, when I've gone through.

Weary

[generoll]

O.K., I got it. I think. I suppose that I object in principle to having to pay a fee to a private organization to use public lands. In all likelihood, by the time my sectioning takes me that far north I'll be more then glad to pay the $8 for a few amenities. I just don't want to HAVE to.

[Tinker]

I left the AMC when it became alarmingly clear that the Club began viewing itself as the only group capable of assessing the proper use of, and, indeed, description of, "wilderness" areas.

Once they determined that an area was wilderness, their view seemed to be that, once they established a hut, lodge, or other center for their members and others willing to pay the price for posh "wilderness" coddling, the "wilderness" area was to be forever closed to any other group(s) intent on competing with their resorts.

The members I know, however, seem to be, on the whole, good souls, though usually a couple of notches in the income level above me, two of my closest AMC friends working for state environmental agencies.

I now support the ATC, ALDHA, and, sometimes to my shame, the Sierra Club.

[weary]

I left the AMC when it became alarmingly clear that the Club began viewing itself as the only group capable of assessing the proper use of, and, indeed, description of, "wilderness" areas.

Once they determined that an area was wilderness, their view seemed to be that, once they established a hut, lodge, or other center for their members and others willing to pay the price for posh "wilderness" coddling, the "wilderness" area was to be forever closed to any other group(s) intent on competing with their resorts.

The members I know, however, seem to be, on the whole, good souls, though usually a couple of notches in the income level above me, two of my closest AMC friends working for state environmental agencies.

I now support the ATC, ALDHA, and, sometimes to my shame, the Sierra Club.

The rules are made by the USFS, not AMC. Most of the huts are on land the AMC uses as the result of a special use permit. Essentially, the club leases land in the National Forest, just as hundred of other groups do in the White Mountain and other national forests nation wide.

AMC sets the rules for the use of their buildings and land they control as a result of their permit -- just as the Wildcat Ski area controls its buildings and ski trails on land they control as a result of their permit from the USFS.

Outside the permitted area, USFS rules exclusively.

Hate the AMC if you wish. But if you want to be intelligent about your hate take the time to figure out who rules what, and where.

Weary

[Jack Tarlin]

Despite my misgivings over some of what the AMC does, in light of what I've seen private concessionaires and for-profit businesses do in other backcountry areas and Parks, whatever qualms we may have about the AMC's actions, practices, and intentions, things would be a lot WORSE in the White Mountain National Forest if the AMC were NOT there.

The people who take time and energy to complain about the AMC (and that includes me, on occasion) would do well to take a moment and consider who and what would replace them.

[Tinker]

The rules are made by the USFS, not AMC. Most of the huts are on land the AMC uses as the result of a special use permit. Essentially, the club leases land in the National Forest, just as hundred of other groups do in the White Mountain and other national forests nation wide.

AMC sets the rules for the use of their buildings and land they control as a result of their permit -- just as the Wildcat Ski area controls its buildings and ski trails on land they control as a result of their permit from the USFS.

Outside the permitted area, USFS rules exclusively.

Hate the AMC if you wish. But if you want to be intelligent about your hate take the time to figure out who rules what, and where.

Weary

I'll leave the hating up to others. Hating leaves me, well, weary.

I'll admit to my ignorance of USFS policies. The elitist attitude of the AMC, as a group, not as individuals, is what I object to.

If you see that as hate, maybe it's hitting a little too close to home.

Sorry for my previous generalization.

[neo]

amc treated me right i only spent 32.00 hiking thru the whites
i stayed at 4 huts madison springs,lake of clouds,zealand falls and
galehead which included dinners and breakfast all work for stay,
i had lunch at mitzpah and lonesome lake.no caretaker at kinsman pond free
total money spent in the whites.
16.00 in candy bars at crawford highland lodge
4.00 lunch mitzpah hut
4.00 lunch lonesome lake hut
8.00 camping fee liberty springs
32.00 total neo

[Skyline]

Despite my misgivings over some of what the AMC does, in light of what I've seen private concessionaires and for-profit businesses do in other backcountry areas and Parks, whatever qualms we may have about the AMC's actions, practices, and intentions, things would be a lot WORSE in the White Mountain National Forest if the AMC were NOT there.

The people who take time and energy to complain about the AMC (and that includes me, on occasion) would do well to take a moment and consider who and what would replace them.

Yeah, can you imagine if ARAMARK (the monopoly concessionnaire in Shenandoah National Park) ever got a foothold in the Whites?

[rickb]

Here is a PDF of the educational pamplet that the AMC publishes for thru hikers:

http://www.outdoors.org/pdf/upload/r...r-brochure.pdf

[kyhipo]

their is good and bad in any sitution with rules ,but to be honest most people would find something bad while hiking no matter where they were.ky

[neo]

amc treated me right i only spent 32.00 hiking thru the whites
i stayed at 4 huts madison springs,lake of clouds,zealand falls and
galehead which included dinners and breakfast all work for stay,
i had lunch at mitzpah and lonesome lake.no caretaker at kinsman pond free
total money spent in the whites.
16.00 in candy bars at crawford highland lodge
4.00 lunch mitzpah hut
4.00 lunch lonesome lake hut
8.00 camping fee liberty springs
32.00 total neo

they even let me hang and sleep in my hammock on the front porch at galehead and zealand falls. neo


http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/...imageuser=3462

[Peaks]

I am glad the AMC Caretaker AT spec doesn't walk over to Full Goose to collect the fee anymore.

That would be a h**l of a walk: Down Spec Arm, through Mahoosic Notch, up Fulling Mill Mountain, and then back again. Seems like all the caretaker would do is hike back and forth between the two shelters.

[Peaks]

I'm sure that there are a few of us on this forum that are old enough to remember what it was like to use on of the heavily used sites before caretakers.
These sites were trashed from overuse. Not only in the White Mountains, but also in the Green Mountains. I'll gladly pay a few dollars in order to enjoy a site that is maintained, or when I don't want to pay the fee, then I'll move on and tent elsewhere without whinning.

[celt]

I left the AMC when it became alarmingly clear that the Club began viewing itself as the only group capable of assessing the proper use of, and, indeed, description of, "wilderness" areas.

Once they determined that an area was wilderness, their view seemed to be that, once they established a hut, lodge, or other center for their members and others willing to pay the price for posh "wilderness" coddling, the "wilderness" area was to be forever closed to any other group(s) intent on competing with their resorts.

The members I know, however, seem to be, on the whole, good souls, though usually a couple of notches in the income level above me, two of my closest AMC friends working for state environmental agencies.

I now support the ATC, ALDHA, and, sometimes to my shame, the Sierra Club.

When you refer to "wilderness" areas do you mean Federal Wilderness' like The Pemi Wilderness or Great Gulf Wilderness? While the AMC maintains trails in Wilderness areas, 13 Falls Campsite is the only AMC managed site in a Federal Wilderness area. All of the AMC Huts pre date the creation of NH Wilderness areas and all but Mizpah pre date the creation of the Wilderness Act. No Hut could ever be in a Wilderness because they don't meet the requirement that the land be untrammeled and in a wild state.

[DavidNH]

I am having trouble understanding something regarding the fee based camp sites in the white mountains.

You take 5-6 months off to thru hike the AT, you plan your trip (in most cases I suspect) for months in advance. You are staying at hostels in towns (20/night or more when all is said and done) eat at restaurants, and visit, in many cases, many many bars. None of THAT is free. You really can afford it!

Yet you complain about spending 8 dollars a night in one of the most crowded hiking areas in the east to put a tent up on a platform. In exchange waste is managed, the place is kept clean, crowds are managed, and trails are maintained. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

As for the huts, as many have already said, there is ample opportunity for work for stay which gives you free lodging breakfast and dinner.

It doesn't matter whethe you are a day hiker, weekender, section hiker, or thru hiker. You are a visitor in the mountains and your presence impacts them to one degree or another.

As I think it over..we probably should have care takers in Georgia at least during the over crowded peak thru hiker season!

David

[Jack Tarlin]

David has made an excellent point.

Every year, at the bar at the Inn at Long Trail, I see hikers bitching and moaning about the fee charged for a handful of campsites/shelters in Vermont.

While bitching, they are invariably eating eight dollar burgers and enjoying five dollar-a-glass microbrews.

People that complain about paying fees at a tiny number of high-use sites aren't making legitimate complaints.

They are merely cheap.

It's really simple......if you don't wanna pay for a "fee" site, plan your hiking day a bit better so at the end of the day, you can stay somewhere else, for free. This isn't rocket science.

But some folks will always complain anyway.