Let the backpatting begin! How come we Hobos aren't recognized? We've done more by accident than these BILLS have done on purpose!! We have big egos too! Please acknowledge us!
Last edited by Lone Wolf; 10-16-2003 at 09:22.
LW...just come down to atlanta and we'll let wingy do ya some back-patting
I'm sure wingy would love your big ego!
"I'd rather kill a man than a snake. Not because I love snakes or hate men. It is a question, rather, of proportion." Edward Abbey
Fark you douche.
Seems to me you'd have to be drunk to jump off a bridge. Is this how the "tradition" started?
Me, I'd prefer to moon the cog railroad.
A plague of hostel closings?
In a recent post, the remarkably well-informed Bunbun made mention of the "dozens of other hostels that have been closed down because of the actions of a few......" He was referring specifically to irresponsible drinking by hiker guests.
Last time I checked, "dozens" means at least 24. I also have some fairly good knowledge of trail facilities of the past few years, and while there's no denying that some are no longer open, many closed for reasons other than alcohol abuse.
Bunbun, please corroborate your statement by listing at least 24 hiker hostels that have closed because of booze.......if you're successful at this, I'll happily buy you a drink.
Don't get me wrong.....I'm not saying this problem doesn't exist. It sure does. But to buttress one's argument with bald statements like this does not aid the dialogue. Bunbun says there are at least two dozen places that hikers once stayed at that no longer welcome hiker guests because of hiker drinking. I say to him: Fine. Name 'em.
Before your time maybe, but I can think of two big ones off the top of my head - Sheas Pine Tree Pavilion - drunk hikers trashed a wedding cake and Levi Long's - a drunk hiker tried to climb the outside wall of his hostel, when Levi tried to stop him, the guy got belligerent. Levi's was a really special place and a real loss to the hiking community.
Seems to me there used to be other hostel type places that no longer exist, like Bland, VA, Connecticut, New Jersey, New York, Manchester Center, Gorham, the Jesuit Hostel in Hot Springs, Dartmouth (I remember when we could stay at the church student center, and then there are several frat houses that no longer accept hikers - when we stayed at one in 1992, we were not allowed to drink at the fraternity, even though the frat guys were drinking, they had had so many bad experiences in previous years. ) that no longer are open to hikers. I don't know why all of these other hostels closed, but alcohol was sometimes a part of the problem. You may be able to handle drinking (don't know you well enough to say) but a lot of hikers, especially young inexperienced ones) can't handle alcohol after they've been on the trail a while. Some folks see the freedom of the trail as freedom from all constraints, even the ones of common consideration for their hosts.
Jack, you know recent trail history, but believe it or not, the trail has a long history of bad relations between inconsiderate hikers and the communities along the way stretching back a long way before your time. Every new incident makes it a little harder for the hikers who follow. The places I knew in 1988 were different from the ones I saw in 1992 which were different from the ones you saw in 1995 and those are different from the ones you saw in 2003. Be honest, can you not think of any hostels in the past 8 years that have closed because the owners became disgusted or discouraged at the behavior or their hiking guests?
and then there was Dalton, in the late 80's (I think it was the YMCA)....
wc
"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all." -- Helen Keller
This is what everyone first assumes and you're possibly correct, but I'm sure there are other issues such as lack of funding and/or volunteers, age and health of the hostel owner.[i] Be honest, can you not think of any hostels in the past 8 years that have closed because the owners became disgusted or discouraged at the behavior or their hiking guests? [/B]
In the same stretch of time I can think of many hostels that have opened including the Kincora, Standing Bear, Vernon, Glencliffe, Uncle Johnnies, Miss Janet's House among others.
Since it's generally up to hikers to police themselves, why wasn't there any mention of problems at the Gathering until after the fact?
The church in Chesire used to take hikers. Now they just let them "stop by"
Hmmm – nitpicking, are we, Jack? OK – I’m not gonna waste the time digging out enough to make you buy me a drink, but I’ll give you a sampler. These are the ones that are directly related to alcohol - and easy for me to either find or remember --- there are others.
Let’s start with the church that was closed in 1973 (per Ed Kuni)
Then there’s the church hall that was burned when drunken thruhikers knocked over a kerosene lamp during a square dance. (year unknown – somewhere in Mass)
How about the church in Kent that was closed down when Cindy Ross went through there in 79?
Or O’Lystery Pavilion? Levi Long’s? the fire house in Vernon, NJ? Or the Pawling Pavilion?
How about the Unionville fire house and at least one of the hostels there? Pen Mar?
Or Shea’s Pavilion? Or the Dalton Community Center?
Or the church hall in Cheshire? Or Manchester Center?
Or the church basement in Hanover? Or the fraternities in Hanover (specifically Alpha Theta)?
Or the many motels and other businesses that have asked not to be included in the Companion or the Handbook over the years? That, by the way, includes Rusty’s.
Then there are the places where I don’t specifically know that alcohol was a factor – but for which there’s really strong suspicion – like maybe –
The Jesuit hostel in Hot Springs? The hostel at Pearisburg?
The Waynesboro Firehouse?
The Silver Hill shelter? Antlers Camp?
How about the church hostel in Monson?
What’s the story at the Home Place?
Then there are the places that may yet close down in part because of alcohol and in part because of thruhiker “attitude” – like the church hostel at DWG.
I’ll quote Cindy Ross here –
“Alcohol and long distance hikers don’t mix. Our bodies absorb it like a sponge and in no time at all, we’re doing things we’ve never done before.”
And then Darrell Maret from the Philosopher’s Guide –
“ Two paths: one easy, one difficult. The easy path is by caring only for yourself, by taking advantage of others, by disregarding the negative effects of your actions, by damning all those who must follow in your footsteps. The difficult path is by balancing your concerns with those of others, by dealing with others honestly and justly, by being mindful of the long-term effects of your actions, by making the way better for those behind you. The difficult path yields a much richer life, but it is nearly impossible to persuade an easy path person of that fact.”
Now – Jack decided to continue this conversation with a nitpicking challenge. And the above list is evidence of the negative effect of alcohol on the Trail and on future thruhikers. So I’ll challenge Jack – to show just how alcohol usage produces positive long-term results for either the Trail or for those who would emulate him in thruhiking the Trail and in their future lives?
And just so he knows wher I'm coming from - at one time I drank at least as much as Jack does. Then I was put in a position where I had to examine my own life in the same terms as Darrell Maret defines. I had to examine what the long-term effects of my actions were doing to others. I made my decision -
Now - for Sly - a question - since the thruhiker population has expanded - does the capacity of those that have opened equal or exceed the capacity of those that have closed? I don't have the answer, but if it doesn't then the ones that have opened are overloaded and will close eventually due to burnout if nothing else.
The Trail is a wonderful and complex beast. And a lot of us love it. But it CAN be loved to death.
No one can solve problems for someone whose problem is that they don't want their problems solved.
Darrell Maret? Most don't know who he is. I do.
silliness
and on todays episode of who's the best AT hiker.......
Originally posted by bunbun
Now - for Sly - a question - since the thruhiker population has expanded - does the capacity of those that have opened equal or exceed the capacity of those that have closed? I don't have the answer, but if it doesn't then the ones that have opened are overloaded and will close eventually due to burnout if nothing else.
The Trail is a wonderful and complex beast. And a lot of us love it. But it CAN be loved to death.
I don't have the numbers, but with the exception of a couple towns there are probably more hostels now then in the past.
From your examples, rowdiness and alcohol abuse aren't a new phenomena. It only takes a couple bad apples to ruin it for everybody whether they be slobs, drunks or thieves. How you can keep these people off the trail is beyond me and probably you.
Also, I think burnout is as likely as cause for hostel closures as anything else. Perhaps more so because of the shear number of hikers today and their demands.
As of Memorial Day When I researched that section to hike, The Parish priests have changed and although quiet about it, they take in hikers again.Originally posted by A-Train
The church in Chesire used to take hikers. Now they just let them "stop by"
Seems to me that we should respect their wishes to be "quiet about it" and not publically post this.Originally posted by asmtroop3
As of Memorial Day When I researched that section to hike, The Parish priests have changed and although quiet about it, they take in hikers again.
Perhaps this post should be deleted by the author or aministrator.
One thought - a lot of the hostels that closed were the church hostels, where the charge was only $2 or $3 a night, if that. They were pretty stable and took hikers in for many years. The new hostels are run by folks (often former hikers) who need to make a living off their guests - I don't know the costs, but I bet it's more than $2! Also, if they aren't able to make enough to pay the mortgage, it isn't long before they have to shut down. And as Sly said, burn out is a factor as well. The hostel keeper gets jaded after dealing with the inconsiderate and ungrateful thruhikers -- and after a while they either just think about the money (and get a bad rep as a result) or they decide it really isn't worth the hassle and go do something else with their lives. So while there are hostels now that weren't there a few years ago, how long do you think they'll last? I don't think I would do it for more than a few years.
Kinda like - when we first got off the trail, we would meet hikers with a cooler of drinks and fruit, offer a slackpack, etc. By the second year, we noticed that the hikers just didn't care anymore, they had seen so much trail magic another soda wasn't appreciated much. So we stopped the direct trail magic and started doing trail maintenance -- where at least what we do is necessary and can have long term good effects -- more than a little sugar high. And if the hikers don't appreciate it much, at least we know we're doing some good.
Originally posted by Sly
I don't have the numbers, but with the exception of a couple towns there are probably more hostels now then in the past.
From your examples, rowdiness and alcohol abuse aren't a new phenomena. It only takes a couple bad apples to ruin it for everybody whether they be slobs, drunks or thieves. How you can keep these people off the trail is beyond me and probably you.
Also, I think burnout is as likely as cause for hostel closures as anything else. Perhaps more so because of the shear number of hikers today and their demands.
I haven't counted them, Sly. Maybe someone should. But it seems to me that the hostels are more concentrated in fewer towns. I could be wrong about that.
Alcohol abuse has been going on for a few thousand years. And it probably won't stop this week - on the Trail or off. My question is this - what example are those who are the leaders and examples in the Trail community setting for those who will come after them?
No - I don't know how to keep the slobs, drunks and thieves off the Trail. I'm not sure it's possible in a free society - which is what the trail community is. But do we want to be advertising (and setting the example) that partying up the Trail is the way to do it? Somehow I don't think Earl Shaffer would buy into that concept.
Hmmm - burnout - that's how I got on the Trail in the first place. I got burned out in a high stress job and needed something/someplace to try to get sane again. "I" got better - but my insanity grew to epic proportions. If I weren't insane I would't be involved in this discussion. I didn't come to this forum to talk about this kind of stuff.
Yeah - burnout in hostel keepers is the ultimate reason (along with financial considerations) that most hostels close. But - think about it - how much does alcohol (especially in the form of drunken hikers who show no respect for the hostel or the rules) accelerate that burnout? The answer is - a LOT.
Are all hikers drunken disrespectful slobs? Of course not. But all it takes is one hiker with an attitude and a bottle to close a hostel. That's how Levi Long's hostel came to be closed. So - who provided the bottle? Or the six-pack? Who provided the example that said - hey, the Trail is one long party and it's cool to get drunk when you hit town? So ultimately - who's responsible for closing that hostel? The guy who got drunk? The one who sold him the liquor? The one who provided the example that started the whole cycle? Or all of the above? It's easy to blame the guy who got drunk - but it's not so easy to look in the mirror and accept that some of us also had a piece of that blame cause we set the wrong example and taught him the wrong things. Been there, done that and have the scars to prove it.
A quiet beer (or whatever) with friends around the campfire is one thing. A party in every town (or every night) is something else again. What's the long-term effect of the example it sets?
Enuff - I've got work to do - and I'll be leaving this afternoon for the weekend. C'ya
No one can solve problems for someone whose problem is that they don't want their problems solved.
Originally posted by Sly
I don't have the numbers, but with the exception of a couple towns there are probably more hostels now then in the past.
From your examples, rowdiness and alcohol abuse aren't a new phenomena. It only takes a couple bad apples to ruin it for everybody whether they be slobs, drunks or thieves. How you can keep these people off the trail is beyond me and probably you.
Also, I think burnout is as likely as cause for hostel closures as anything else. Perhaps more so because of the shear number of hikers today and their demands.
I haven't counted them, Sly. Maybe someone should. But it seems to me that the hostels are more concentrated in fewer towns. I could be wrong about that.
Alcohol abuse has been going on for a few thousand years. And it probably won't stop this week - on the Trail or off. My question is this - what example are those who are the leaders and examples in the Trail community setting for those who will come after them?
No - I don't know how to keep the slobs, drunks and thieves off the Trail. I'm not sure it's possible in a free society - which is what the trail community is. But do we want to be advertising (and setting the example) that partying up the Trail is the way to do it? Somehow I don't think Earl Shaffer would buy into that concept.
Hmmm - burnout - that's how I got on the Trail in the first place. I got burned out in a high stress job and needed something/someplace to try to get sane again. "I" got better - but my insanity grew to epic proportions. If I weren't insane I would't be involved in this discussion. I didn't come to this forum to talk about this kind of stuff.
Yeah - burnout in hostel keepers is the ultimate reason (along with financial considerations) that most hostels close. But - think about it - how much does alcohol (especially in the form of drunken hikers who show no respect for the hostel or the rules) accelerate that burnout? The answer is - a LOT.
Are all hikers drunken disrespectful slobs? Of course not. But all it takes is one hiker with an attitude and a bottle to close a hostel. That's how Levi Long's hostel came to be closed. So - who provided the bottle? Or the six-pack? Who provided the example that said - hey, the Trail is one long party and it's cool to get drunk when you hit town? So ultimately - who's responsible for closing that hostel? The guy who got drunk? The one who sold him the liquor? The one who provided the example that started the whole cycle? Or all of the above? It's easy to blame the guy who got drunk - but it's not so easy to look in the mirror and accept that some of us also had a piece of that blame cause we set the wrong example and taught him the wrong things. Been there, done that and have the scars to prove it.
A quiet beer (or whatever) with friends around the campfire is one thing. A party in every town (or every night) is something else again. What's the long-term effect of the example it sets?
Enuff - I've got work to do - and I'll be leaving this afternoon for the weekend. C'ya
No one can solve problems for someone whose problem is that they don't want their problems solved.
Max, you keep mistaking this site for Trailplace. Since you are very into getting posts removed, you really need to be on that site. There is something here you obviously cannot stand,it's called Free Speech.
Somewhere Easy must be laughing his ass off over this thread.
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