Gathering

[Blister]

These threads started with the comotion and actions that took place at the Gathering. They have now taken the turn to the Alcohol is to blame for just about every bad thing that happens on the trail. Just like the world we live in there are many different personalities we encounter. Some bad apples, the regular good guy shmo, and of course the amazing people who you could call an angel. I have seen much bad behavior unalcohol related happen on the trail. I saw a hiker with a dog refuse the no dogs allowed sign in what used to be the manchester center Zion church, pick up a chair and throw it across the rec room because the minister had to point out no dogs allowed. His response of throwing the chair and telling off the priest that his dog was a thru hiker to and should be allowed. No alcohol just an *******. There were hikers that misused a computer at the church hostel in Vernon to down load porn in a church with children around. Again no alcohol - just ********. Alcohol is not the reason every bad thing happens. However in a community such as Long Distance Hikers - there needs to be proper communication. There are alot of accusations being thrown around, of which are making even innocent people defensive. I like to sit down and have a beer or cocktail with many of my friends. Whether it be the Bills, The Hobo's , or even ALDHA board members. The fact is there is good and bad everywhere - a few rotten apples can slip in anywhere without knowledge. At that point we deal with situations like adults. Not one person taking the authority to blame whole groups of good people because of isolated inccidents. Very unfortunate arguments being set forth to innocent people.

[max patch]

Originally posted by Blue Jay
Max, you keep mistaking this site for Trailplace. Since you are very into getting posts removed, you really need to be on that site. There is something here you obviously cannot stand,it's called Free Speech.

Hamster, you need to temper your raging anger with a bit of common sense. We have a Church which is getting back in the hostel business but wishes to keep this information "quiet". Posting this information in a public forum is against the wishes of the Church and is a good way once again lose this facility as a hiker hostel.

Remember, Free Speech is not absolute. It is illegal to cry "fire" in a crowded theater. And its justs plain dumb to "spread the word" about a service when the host wants to keep its availabilty quiet.

[max patch]

Hamster, while we're at it, in your opinion the Administrators have infringed on several individuals right to Free Speech on many occasions by deleting posts that discussed butt plugs, the advantages of fat women, outing individuals believed to be homosexuals, homophobic posts, and racist posts.

This is a site dedicated to the AT. In the name of Free Speech why to you believe that posts such as these should not have been deleted?

I believe a bit of censorship is prudent.

[smokymtnsteve]

Like ms Aretha Franklin says,,

R_E_S_P_E_C_T_

and she's a big girl...talkling about advantages!

[Jack Tarlin]

You know, Max,sometimes you make no sense whatsover.

The First Amendment and the right to free speech has nothing to with what appears or does not appear on a wesite paid for and administered by a private individual. Where on earth did you get the idea that you or anyone else has the right to take up our time and space with such delghtful subjects as the ones you mentioned? On your own website? Sure, feel free. But here, on a site devoted to Trail matters. Hardly.

But there's an easy remedy for this if you REALLY wanna talk about or learn about the subjects you mentioned: Go elsewhere. I daresay, if you "plug" (pardon the phrasing!) any of those terms into a search engine, you can enjoy yourself til the cows come home. Discuss 'em here? I think not.

Personally, I entirely support the "hands off" approach to site administration here, and I think the present folks are doing a fine job of keeping this site a place we can enjoy, learn from, and be proud of. I only hope it stays that way.

[smokymtnsteve]

Originally posted by smokymtnsteve
Like ms Aretha Franklin says,,

R_E_S_P_E_C_T_

and she's a big girl...talkling about advantages!

that's why!!!!

you make plenty of sense max patch.....let's respect the church's wishes as a group...lack of respect is what causes the problems..along with excessive alkyhol

[max patch]

I think you came into the middle of the conversation and have missed the point. And in rereading my post I can see that it could have been better worded. My bad.

ALL those topics at one time were posted on this website. The Admins, properly, in my opinion, deleted them.

I was asking the Hamster since he believes in "Free Speech" apparently 100% of the time why he thinks the Admins were wrong in deleting them.

[warren doyle]

Interesting responses - an online survey of human nature passionate about the trail.

A little history is in order first about the Sunday morning 'cliff jump', a 22-year tradition at the Gathering, from the 'horse's mouth'.
The cliff jump is nothing more than a celebration of the wild/free/adventurous/looney part of long distance hiking.
For the first eight years of the Gathering, participants had the option of jumping off a 25' or 35' cliff into the Bluestone River.
We had anywhere from ten to 40 jumpers in those days, with an equal number of observers. I know of only one person who suffered a minor injury - a scraped shinbone.
The first Gathering at Hanover in 1990 saw about 20 folks jump off the White River bridge where the trail is in West Hartford, VT. There was about 30 observers.
The Pipestem (WV) Gatherings of 1991, 1993, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2002 saw groups of 1 to 10 jump off Brush Creek Falls.
The Carlisle (PA) Gathering of 1995 saw four people plunge into the lake at Boiling Springs
The Hanover (NH) Gatherings of 1992, 1994, 1997, 1999, 2001, 2003 saw groups of 1 to 8 jump off the main bridge into town (where the AT is) into the Connecticut River. The 2003 jump was the first time the bridge was posted mentioning a $100 fine for jumping off the bridge.
As an educator, rather than a regulator, I always question rules and regulations. I do not preach/teach blind obedience (neither did our founding fathers). I am sure the ordinance was drafted for two reasons:
1) The safety of motorists: I am sure the spectacle of folks (whether they be townies/Dartmouth students) jumping off the bridge during a hot summer afternoon would distract passing motorists and posssibly cause an accident.
Since we were jumping off very quickly at 6:50am on a fall Sunday morning, when the traffic was very light, the regulation didn't apply to me.
2) The safety of the jumpers: I have always been concerned about this so I don't need a regulation telling me what I can do or can't do in this regard.. 22 cliff jumps; about 220 people; one minor injury.

If a few ALDHA members are upset about this, that is their perogative. Perhaps they can form a long distance hiking group that is totally law-abiding so they wouldn't have to deal with this 'cliff-jumping' stress at their Gathering. Besides, didn't the law-abiding Javert finally commit suicide by jumping off a bridge in Les Miserables while the compassionate Jean Valjean survived?

[chris]

I think people were upset because you advocate no-alcohol at Pipestem _because_ those are the rules, whereas you do not seem bound by the same logic in Hanover with respect to the cliffjumping. If you would have made the argument that the presence of alcohol at a large public get-together is inherently harmful, that would have been another story. Now, if I or others make an argument that alcohol is not detrimentalt, then shouldn't we have your blessing to drink at Pipestem? Or, should we, as you have stated in another post, simply follow the rules, which say: No drinking at Pipestem. If Yes (follow rules), then the same logic applies to your cliffjumping, tradition or no.

[Jack Tarlin]

The fact that Warren takes great concern over the possibility of injury is fine, but it's irrelevant. And while there has evidently been only one minor injury at Gathering cliff jumps, this is perhaps good luck as well as good planning. After all, it is a manifestly unwise and dangerous thing to do.

I live a few miles from the West Hartford bridge. At least one local teenager was horribly injured in recent years (i.e paralyzed) thanks to a bridge jump from this location. Because of the inherent risk, bridge-jumping here has been illegal for years and anyone who jumps, or encourages others to do so is clearly flouting the law, as well as encouraging folks to engage in a provably dangerous activity.

I think the point here is that it can be viewed as rather hypocritical for an individual to ignore regulations and laws that he might find inconvenient or foolish, but then, at another place, take the "high road" in being a stickler about other regualtions and laws that other folks choose to bend or break.

Personally, I have no problem with bridge jumpers, as long as nobody is compelled to do it. But to advocate ignoring rules and statutes that one doesn't care for, while admonishing or criticizing other folks for occasionally doing likewise, does not seem entirely fair. Why not acknowledge that almost everyone, at one time or another bends or even breaks the conventions of society, and leave it at that, without the moral posturing or criticism of others.

[chris]

Heeheeheehee! Jack and I have agreed on our second point! The first, for those of you keeping score, was sometime last fall and had to do (coincidently, of course) with liquor.

[chomp]

I was asked to post this for The Old Fhart. Apparently he is having some problems with registering his Whiteblaze acct.

-chomp

--------------------------------------

Warren's response is absolutely amazing! What sort of pedantic megalomaniac tries to justify blatantly breaking of a law designed to safeguard people and equate it to a moral imperative! To say: "Since we were jumping off very quickly at 6:50am on a fall Sunday morning, when the traffic was very light, the regulation didn't apply to me.", could be used to justify any illegal or immoral act. The facts are that people DO get hurt from this activity and that you have had only "one minor injury" only means you have been lucky so far, nothing else. The law against bridge jumping does not have an exception which states: "excludes the great and omnipotent Warren Doyle", it applies to all people, no mater how much hubris they exude. My wife works in a crisis counseling group and we are keenly aware how far reaching the consequences of someone's thoughtless, openly flagrant, or just plain stupid act can be in impacting everyone associated with that person. The two weeks she spent in Manhattan after 9/11 certainly drove that home.

Warren's only response is that: " If a few ALDHA members are upset about this, that is their perogative[sic]. Perhaps they can form a long distance hiking group that is totally law-abiding so they wouldn't have to deal with this 'cliff-jumping' stress at their Gathering." I want to know how this unbelievable attitude fits in with the Endangered Services Campaign ALDHA professes to support. One section of it states:' Our hope is that hikers will eventually adapt the "Leave No Trace" camping ethic to their activities in towns, not just to their behavior in the woods, and do it without even thinking twice about it." You can't expect others to obey all the rules while not only choosing which ones you violate but also flaunting the transgression by publishing it as a schedule event. ALDHA needs to stop talking out of both side of it's mouth and show that it is a good responsible organization supporting good trail ethics by stopping this violation of ethics and law. Maybe it is time to dethrone the king, not try justify his existence and listen to his obtuse irrelevant quotes from Les Miserables.

The Old Fhart

[warren doyle]

The third set of quotes in the first paragraph of 'The Old Fhart' reply is very misleading. I'm just plain Warren Doyle, neither great nor omnipotent, and certainly not the king.
Now, it would be appropriate to put quotes around the two sentences above because I actually said (wrote) them.

[Blister]

Warren, like me or hate me for what I am about to say. You choose to be in a spotlite. The last Gathering I coordinated, you sent me a list of presentaions that you wanted to lead that actually out did the hours we actually had to offer. I had to call you feeling like a schmuck (sorry local lingo), to tell you I had to cut some of it. You were cool about it and I did what I had to do on the planning. I remember that weekend, nobody could actually talk to you unless they ran from classroom to classroom, as you had your presentations. As for the Gathering you do spend more time in front of the people then with them.

[warren doyle]

Blister,
First of all, thanks for all your efforts in coordinating the 1997 and 1999 Gatherings at Hanover. It is a great deal of work and I always have appreciated this.
Your comments are quite accurate.
I see the Gathering as a time when I can share my experiences/knowledge with any who are interested in making the most of our limited time together. I have other things in my life besides hiking and find that I don't have the time to answer adequately all the requests for AT-related hiking info that I get throughout the other 359 days of the year. I 'compartmentalize' my time for this service to six days a year - 3 days at the Gathering (since 1982) and 2-3 days at Trail Days (since 1988). I'm not ashamed of that.
I've downsized my life considerably since 1995 to be out of the 'spotlight'. However, I love hiking the Appalachian Trail whether by sections or on a group thru-hike. I also feel an obligation to share this love of the trail with others who are interested. I consider myself a 24/7 educator.
As to people to be 'with', we all have the freedom to choose who we spend our personal time with according to our interests/needs. I don't try to tell you who you should spend this kind of time with. Certainly, one cannot spend time with everyone at the Gathering, even those who are there for purely social reasons. This is not my primary purpose for attending the Gathering.
Have a fun and beautiful fall/winter in Vermont.
By the way, I could never hate a fellow human being.

[Blister]

C'mon you guys, for how long are we gonna beat a dead horse? Yes, the cliff jump is illegal in Hanover. So no longer shall it be put in the program, as my opion. As far as Folk Life Center - we all find alternate camping. It's simple,no argument. Rules are rules.