Are you a scofflaw?

[Just a Hiker]

Hey all, I have a good story that is somewhat close to the topic of this thread. Anyway, this was in 2004, and my plan this day was to go from Pinkham Notch to Lakes of the Clouds Hut. The weather was great and I had a great climb up Madison. I stayed at Madison Springs Hut for awhile to eat something and rest my knees because I had fallen coming down Wildcat the day before. Anyway, It finally took off toward Mt. Washington and the weather changed really fast. The temp dropped quick and it started raining and the fog was rolling in fast. After awhile I knew I wouldn't make it to Lakes of the Clouds Hut, so I made my way to the Perch Lean-to. I made it there okay, and as I was sitting up camp I noticed a sign that said it cost $5 dollars to stay there. It also stated that if a representative from Randolph Mountain Club didn't show up to collect, then you were to mail the $5 bucks to the club when you had a chance.

Now as I am reading this I am thinking no fool is going to climb up here to get $5 dollars from my sorry azz, and I seriously doubt if I'll remember to actually mail it in. So I settle in, and the rain and fog are getting worse and worse as the evening goes on, so I figure I'll be camping alone, and I also figure that there is no way anyone is going to show up and collect $5 bucks from me. Anyway, it's nearly dark and it's foggy and raining, and all of a sudden from the fog comes a young guy with a small pack and a big headlamp. You guessed it, it was a caretaker from Randolph Mountain Club!! I was shocked, and I was also impressed that this guy actually hiked his assigned route to check the lean-to's and cabins that the RMC maintains. I think he was surprised to see me as well, but we chatted for a moment and then he asked me for my $5, which I promptly paid. We continued to chat for a moment, and then he returned to his duties.

Now I admit, if this guy hadn't shown up, the RMC more than likely would have never seen that $5 dollars (which the RMC really needs). Mainly because I would have forgotten, but I can't honestly say I would have mailed in that $5 dollars even if I had remembered. That doesn't make me a bad person or scofflaw, but I guess my point is that we have all probably broken the rules on the trail or have camped where we shouldn't or haven't paid a fee. It doesn't make us bad, it makes us human. Take care,


Just Jim

[STEVEM]

You can legally hike the entire trail without paying a fee to hike or camp.
Sounds like a 'noble' goal to me.

(it use to cost 10 cents to cross the Bear Mountain Bridge over the Hudson but they discontinued this fee)

I dayhiked thru the Bear Mountain area and the admissions lady at the zoo told me it wasn't necessary for me to pay the $1.00 or $2.00 admission fee.
I paid anyway. It just seemed like the right thing to do.

[Tin Man]

Now I admit, if this guy hadn't shown up, the RMC more than likely would have never seen that $5 dollars (which the RMC really needs). Mainly because I would have forgotten, but I can't honestly say I would have mailed in that $5 dollars even if I had remembered. That doesn't make me a bad person or scofflaw, but I guess my point is that we have all probably broken the rules on the trail or have camped where we shouldn't or haven't paid a fee. It doesn't make us bad, it makes us human. Take care,


Just Jim

I imagine most people bend the rules on occassion not out of a true desire to do any harm, but out of convenience. Techically, bending the rules may be wrong, but as long as it isn't flagrant or obviously harmful, then we justify it and move on. Perhaps we find a way to make up for the minor infractions another way, say by donating time or money or discouraging more harmful behaviors.

Example: There is a big difference between stealth camping in the wrong spot when you run out of daylight and trashing a commercial establishment or campsite for the sake of a party.

[CoyoteWhips]

I try not to break any laws that anybody wants to enforce. Just seems rude.

[horicon]

Can some explain who is going to enforce the rules???

[Tin Man]

I think we are all called upon to know and follow the rules ourselves. There are ridge-runners who monitor the corridor and encourage people to follow the rules. The AMC, among others, have people who collect camping fees at some of their sites. Some areas, like in the Smokies, are more strict than in other areas. Generally speaking, I think it is in everyone's interest to know and follow the rules in order to preserve the trail and the amenities. Failure to respect the rules could result in more restrictions or fewer services.

[Jester2000]

. . .Which sections are most difficult to avoid such fees, and how can you legally avoid paying such fees? Also, what sections do you think such fees are reasonable and go towards a good cause, and what sections do you think it would be better to legally avoid paying such fees? I read somewhere that it might be best to try and avoid paying such fees in New Hampshire, but such fees might be well spent in Vermont.

Another question, when people that work in some shelters allow hikers to stay for free if the do some work, is this considered theft of services? In other words, does the shelter worker have the authority to use discretion to waive such fees for any reason?

You can legally avoid paying fees by not availing yourself of the services/shelters for which the fees are charged.

In other words, don't want to pay? Don't go there. Some people find this to be difficult as they move through the Whites, but it's not.

So keeping in mind that the legal way to not pay fees is to not use services, and keeping in mind that whether or not to pay is based not on where the money goes but rather where you go and what you do, I'd say that you should pay wherever you use services, and use services wherever you feel you have to or want to. This may be all over the place, or only in a couple of places.

As for "work for stay," you're probably referring to huts rather than shelters (although there are some pay shelters with hosts). They are authorized to take on work for stay people, so it's not theft of services. And since you'll be doing some work, it's actually more like a barter thing (to warn you -- I've done some pretty noxious things for work for stay, although if you're lucky you'll just do dishes).

[Just a Hiker]

You can legally avoid paying fees by not availing yourself of the services/shelters for which the fees are charged.

In other words, don't want to pay? Don't go there. Some people find this to be difficult as they move through the Whites, but it's not.

So keeping in mind that the legal way to not pay fees is to not use services, and keeping in mind that whether or not to pay is based not on where the money goes but rather where you go and what you do, I'd say that you should pay wherever you use services, and use services wherever you feel you have to or want to. This may be all over the place, or only in a couple of places.

As for "work for stay," you're probably referring to huts rather than shelters (although there are some pay shelters with hosts). They are authorized to take on work for stay people, so it's not theft of services. And since you'll be doing some work, it's actually more like a barter thing (to warn you -- I've done some pretty noxious things for work for stay, although if you're lucky you'll just do dishes).

Hey all. I agree, if you can't pay the fiddler....don't go to the dance. When I was telling my little story earlier, I wasn't condoning not paying for services; in my own feeble way I was coming clean on own moral dilema on the trail. Fortunately, in my case, all worked out well.....The RMC got their money and I kept my good karma in tact. It would hurt me deeply if people thought I was the sort who condoned not paying for services. Anyway, I have to go call the IRS. LOL!!! Take care,


Just Jim

[Jester2000]

. . . It would hurt me deeply if people thought I was the sort who condoned not paying for services. Anyway, I have to go call the IRS. LOL!!! Take care,

Just Jim

I seriously doubt anyone would think that of you, Jim. I was just responding to JAK's question. Tell the IRS I said "hi." Oh, and also tell them, "don't audit me."

[Sly]

Since he started the post, I want to know when Rick is going to come back and tell us if he's a scofflaw? Otherwise, the thread is fits into the "trolling" category. Maybe we need a forum for that.

[Appalachian Tater]

You can legally hike the entire trail without paying a fee to hike or camp.
Sounds like a 'noble' goal to me.

Then why would you do something like use an access road on private property where a fee is charged and illegally avoid paying the fee by sneaking through (trespassing) as you have admitted to doing?

Sounds 'ignoble' to me.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

.......the legal way to not pay fees is to not use services, and keeping in mind that whether or not to pay is based not on where the money goes but rather where you go and what you do, I'd say that you should pay wherever you use services, and use services wherever you feel you have to or want to. This may be all over the place, or only in a couple of places.

Very well stated, Jester.

[rickb]

Since he started the post, I want to know when Rick is going to come back and tell us if he's a scofflaw? Otherwise, the thread is fits into the "trolling" category. Maybe we need a forum for that.

Desert Lobster could be the mod on that one.

Anyway, I was a scofflaw on my thru.

As a SOB0, I camped something over 1/4 mile north of the road that goes by Pinkham Notch. Normally, this 1/4 mile would have put me in a legal camping zone, but truth be known that stretch of trail parallels Route 16 off in the distance. Problem was, if I had stayed farther north on the AT, I would have been on a 45* incline (or so it seemed).

While you can't see the road, its there. And is most certainly within 1/4 mile. And you can't camp within 1/4 mile of any road in the Whites-- even if you are more than 1/4 mile away from the Trailhead.

What can I say? I ****ed up, and am not proud of it.

Rick

[Lone Wolf]

Then why would you do something like use an access road on private property where a fee is charged and illegally avoid paying the fee by sneaking through (trespassing) as you have admitted to doing?

Sounds 'ignoble' to me.

access to all AT trailheads should be free

[Cookerhiker]

I've been hiking the AT for 30 years and don't recall breaking any camping rules - not that I'm a goody 2-shoes, it's just that when I was ready to cash in for the night, I was always legal.

But on my JMT hike last summer, I probably camped too close to some of the alpine lakes.

[Nightwalker]

Then why would you do something like use an access road on private property where a fee is charged and illegally avoid paying the fee by sneaking through (trespassing) as you have admitted to doing?

Sounds 'ignoble' to me.

Why don't you give it up, Junior.

[warren doyle]

Sounds like good advice to me.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

access to all AT trailheads should be free

I'm a section hiker - should I be sneaking into State Parks without paying the fees and not paying those pesky FS parking fees if I plan to hike the AT I don't think so.

[Sly]

Desert Lobster could be the mod on that one.

Anyway, I was a scofflaw on my thru.

Thanks for your participation. You're troll like status has been rescinded.

[Lone Wolf]

I'm a section hiker - should I be sneaking into State Parks without paying the fees and not paying those pesky FS parking fees if I plan to hike the AT I don't think so.

the only STATE park that has a fee is Baxter. and that's if you drive in. the only FS parking fees that i know of are in WMNF. there are ways around that