Are you a scofflaw?

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Last time I checked the TOS didn't say we would keep the members from calling anyone out for promoting illegal behavior.

[Appalachian Tater]

Face it, you want the luxury of driving a car to places you could walk into and just don't want to pay. Other words - cheap.

Not just cheap, but lazy. Rather than walk in, or carry his own supplies, he relies on a motor vehicle--and the rest of us to pay for the parks/facilities/food/entertainment which he uses. In other words, a free-loader.

Doyle, since you're so lazy, I'll calculate the score for you:

Internegators: 3.
Cheap, lazy, free-loading, but legitimate, child: 0.

[dixicritter]

:::Goes and looks at WB TOS:::

Nope don't see anything in there about that FD.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Hey, Dixie, I found something about illegal acts in our TOS:

Discussions involving how to commit illegal acts, or involving the use, production and/or distribution of illegal drugs are forbidden.

[Tin Man]

WD,

Do you teach free-loading at your institute?

[dixicritter]

Yes and Warren has been made aware of that particular rule many, many times.

[SGT Rock]

WD,

Do you teach free-loading at your institute?

Doubt it.

[bfitz]

I answer to a higher power.

[Spirit Walker]

Okay, I have a hypthetical question, based on a real issue that relates to this thread and the ESC thread.

On the Great Divide Trail in Canada, hikers are required to buy a National Park Pass ($62) and a Wilderness Camping Pass (another $62). Then we are required to make reservations for all national park campsites in advance – which is about half the trail. There is a service charge for the permit – how much it costs depends on how long it takes to make the reservation. There are also several Provincial Parks that we camped in. Two require advance reservations ($8 person plus a reservation fee of $8) and the rest ask that you pay at the campsite. Aside from the money involved, there is a certain inconvenience in having to figure out your schedule before you go and then it can be a real pain keeping to the schedule. There are wardens/rangers in the backcountry, but not a lot. So, how many of you would jump through the hoops and pay the fees in order to camp legally?

We decided that it was in our best interest, and in the best interest of future hikers, to stay legal. We bought our permits, made our reservations, and kept to the schedule. However, I think this is fairly rare. The trail gets little respect or support as it is - every time a warden meets a thruhiker who hasn’t bothered to get a permit, it gives all thruhikers a bad name. When it is an American – well, that really makes us look bad. There are only a handful of hikers on the trail at all – so when even a few don’t bother to get the permits, it is noticeable.

And yes, we did run into a warden who asked for our permit. So have several other CDT hikers we know.

So, what would you do?

[Appalachian Tater]

Okay, I have a hypthetical question, based on a real issue that relates to this thread and the ESC thread.

On the Great Divide Trail in Canada, hikers are required to buy a National Park Pass ($62) and a Wilderness Camping Pass (another $62). Then we are required to make reservations for all national park campsites in advance – which is about half the trail. There is a service charge for the permit – how much it costs depends on how long it takes to make the reservation. There are also several Provincial Parks that we camped in. Two require advance reservations ($8 person plus a reservation fee of $8) and the rest ask that you pay at the campsite. Aside from the money involved, there is a certain inconvenience in having to figure out your schedule before you go and then it can be a real pain keeping to the schedule. There are wardens/rangers in the backcountry, but not a lot. So, how many of you would jump through the hoops and pay the fees in order to camp legally?

We decided that it was in our best interest, and in the best interest of future hikers, to stay legal. We bought our permits, made our reservations, and kept to the schedule. However, I think this is fairly rare. The trail gets little respect or support as it is - every time a warden meets a thruhiker who hasn’t bothered to get a permit, it gives all thruhikers a bad name. When it is an American – well, that really makes us look bad. There are only a handful of hikers on the trail at all – so when even a few don’t bother to get the permits, it is noticeable.

And yes, we did run into a warden who asked for our permit. So have several other CDT hikers we know.

So, what would you do?

When you are in Canada or any other foreign country, you are a guest and should make an extra effort to scrupulously follow the laws and any rules or regulations that you encounter, whether the citizens of that country do so or not, for all the reasons you have mentioned, and to stay out of trouble as well.

Even if you are a morally superior being whose actions may not be questioned by mortals, another country is not the place to steal, lie, or avoid paying user fees that you are supposed to be paying if you must do those things.

Canada is also known to forbid even "minor" criminals entry and will tell you to turn your car around or get back on the plane.

Your honesty and willingness to co-operate with the underpaid people who work in parks is refreshing on this particular thread.

[Blue Jay]

I answer to a higher power.

Women?????

[SGT Rock]

Women?????

Yea, his mom.

[JAK]

You can legally avoid paying fees by not availing yourself of the services/shelters for which the fees are charged.

In other words, don't want to pay? Don't go there. Some people find this to be difficult as they move through the Whites, but it's not.

So keeping in mind that the legal way to not pay fees is to not use services, and keeping in mind that whether or not to pay is based not on where the money goes but rather where you go and what you do, I'd say that you should pay wherever you use services, and use services wherever you feel you have to or want to. This may be all over the place, or only in a couple of places.

Thanks. That's what I was asking, whether it was still possible to find a legally free spot even in the Whites. As to where to spend and where not to, I was asking if there might be some sections where people are more apt to stay and pay at services because they seem more reasonably priced and/or the money seems to be put to better use, and not stay at the other services. I can see how that is somewhat subjective. I kind of like the idea in a way, because it make places like the Whites more challenging to avoid services legally, and it makes other sections more pleasant, that might not be as physically challenging but have more affordable services that you might feel better about supporting. So honesty is the best policy, but as others have said, there are occassions where we are simply being human and if we miss a chance to pay $5 somewhere and don't mail it in as we should have, we can try and make it up by tipping someone or making a donation further down the trail. Technically this is illegal, and not harmless, but I wouldn't get too upset about it compared to a zillion other things we do every day that causes a lot more harm.

[JAK]

I seriously doubt anyone would think that of you, Jim. I was just responding to JAK's question. Tell the IRS I said "hi." Oh, and also tell them, "don't audit me."

I think you misunderstood or misinterpreted my question, but I appreciated your first reply. Thanks. A lot of people seem to be giving me flak for simply trying to be understanding of what others might do, and taking things in measure. So be it.

[JAK]

Sorry, no you didn't misunderstand. I just misunderstood the IRS joke. I should join up and start editing some of my stupid posts. Cheers.

[JAK]

I'm a section hiker - should I be sneaking into State Parks without paying the fees and not paying those pesky FS parking fees if I plan to hike the AT I don't think so.

I think what L.Wolf was saying is that it SHOULD be free, and most often is. When I drive through Fundy National Park it cost $3 or something, but if my wife is picking me up at the end of the Fundy Footpath then it is free. On the other end there is now the Fundy Trail Parkway, which is an odd organization which is something in between a Provincial Park and a Private Organization. To get access to the Fundy Footpath through them you now have to pay. They used to provide a parking lot outside there gate, but they no longer do. There is still the original Salmon River Road buried in the woods someplace, but I think its blocked. You can still get dropped off outside their gate and they don't charge you for hiking the 10km through, which is very pleasant, but I think this will change in the future. I paid $30 for a seasons pass, which really only bothers me because they are using the money to extend the Fundy Trail Parkway further in parallel to the Fundy Footpath, which I don't want, not just to maintain the Fundy Trail Parkway. So it looks to me like the Footpath will cost money, just to hike, in the future. It would not surprise me if the same happens to the AT at some point.

The question is, when private organizations, or pseudo-private organizations that might even get some funding from government, deliberately block access to the AT with their services, and develop services parallel or adjoining the AT that you might not 100% agree with, should we be 100% cooperative with these folks when it isn't their services that we are really using? We just want to pass through and get to the AT. What is legal when they are trying to force us to pay and support for something we disagree with?

[JAK]

And personal welfare too. Last I looked there were programs on the federal level and state level to also provide welfare to individuals. Selective choosing of reasoning there.

Face it, you want the luxury of driving a car to places you could walk into and just don't want to pay. Other words - cheap. There isn't any honor or higher purpose in your actions - only personal gratification.

It isn't like you would starve or die if you didn't pay. You're simply justifying poor examples of behavior and at the same time condoning others and yet you also can find fault in others for their actions with a straight face. Continue to pat yourself on the back for how clever you feel.

Hypocrisy. LOL!

I agree. But what if they started charging you to access the AT even by foot? What would you do then?

[JAK]

What if they were using the money to build a road running parallel to the AT?

[JAK]

Oh, and also eventually took over management of the AT. Like this:

Before:
http://fundytrailparkway.com/fundy_footpath.htm

After:
http://fundytrailparkway.com/phase_2.htm

How would you feel if the money they were extorting out of you was being used to pay for development you didn't agree with, and they used they fact that you were paying to reinforce their argumant that it was development that people wanted? So things can often get messy. I don't have the answers. I should get more involved politically, but really just want to go for a walk in the woods, preferably without hearing cars and RVs off my left shoulder.

[JAK]

My answer is that I do what I do. This year I paid the $30. Perhaps I shouldn't have. But I don't complain about other people if they avoided such fees when it is going towards such over-development. I agree however, that MOST times when people justify a 'crime', if is hypocrisy. But not always.