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  1. #301
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    A wild, breeding population means that there is annual reproduction sufficient to replace annual mortality, absent any human restocking, whether intended or not.

    Let me tell you a true story about cougars in Pennsylvania. Years ago, a fisherman called my boss to report that a cougar was following him along a creek and back to his car. My boss responded to the scene and found a cougar waiting in the edge of the woods. He tied a rope around its neck, led it back to his truck, whereupon the cougar climbed in to the back seat.

    Was that a wild, breeding cougar? Individual sightings mean nothing; we need PHYSICAL EVIDENCE of a wild, self-sustaining population.

    Let me offer a further analogy: I get a call that Cspan is a poacher, based on an eyewitness report. I slap the cuffs on the Cspan, and take him the local magistrate. The judge asks me "Where's the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE to support your claim?" Eyewitness statements are the LEAST dependable form of evidence; any lawyer will tell you that.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Game Warden View Post
    Let me offer a further analogy: I get a call that Cspan is a poacher, based on an eyewitness report. I slap the cuffs on the Cspan, and take him the local magistrate. The judge asks me "Where's the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE to support your claim?" Eyewitness statements are the LEAST dependable form of evidence; any lawyer will tell you that.
    Hey now! Easy there. I don't even know how to poach eggs.

    Otherwise, agreed with you on low quality of eyewitness testimony (contrary to popular belief). Thanks for the dfn of breeding population - makes sense.

    On your car-traveling cougar, did it really turn out to be a cougar? Are you saying its lack of aversion to riding in cars suggested it was someone's pet?

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Game Warden View Post
    The real question is: Is there a wild, breeding population of cougars in the east US? There have been released "pet" cougars found here, and a Wisconsin cougar got hit by a car in Connecticut, but a wild, breeding population has not been found.
    I wish it were otherwise. I would love to find a wild cougar in Pennsylvania.
    My impression from state environmental and wildlife people is that they would be happy, proud and bragging if there was a population of mountain lions in Mass. There's been at least one confirmed mountain lion at the Quabbin Reservoir (near Sketcher709's location). I believe DNA testing showed it was genetically related to South American cougars and was likely a released pet or escaped 'zoo' animal. The Quabbin area is wild enough that moose are seen regularly (I've seen 6 there).

    There is a minimum number of animals needed for a viable population, about 50 as I recall. I've read a paper studying the possibilities of the Florida panthers extending their range; the conclusion is that it is possible eventually, but not likely soon. There is certainly the possibility of individual Florida panthers wandering far, possibly as far as the AT, but that is very different from a sustainable population on the AT.

  4. #304

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    There doesn't necessarily have to be a breeding population. It could just be wandering males. That would explain absence of abundant physical evidence.

  5. #305
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    I'm not looking for abundant PHYSICAL EVIDENCE. I'm looking for any PHYSICAL EVIDENCE. After 24 years of methodical searching, I got nothing.

  6. #306

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    There are definitely mountain lions in NE Connecticut (Natchaug State Forest area) -- There have been sightings in my neighborhood. Not sure about western CT where the AT runs, though.

  7. #307
    Registered User Speakeasy TN's Avatar
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    Tennessee has quietly acknowledged a population of cougar in the State and as you'd expect, they seem to be more prevalent in the western part of the state but they have been confirmed surprisingly close to Chattanooga. I have no doubt they are in the GSMNP and Cherokee NF.

  8. #308

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speakeasy TN View Post
    Tennessee has quietly acknowledged a population of cougar in the State and as you'd expect, they seem to be more prevalent in the western part of the state but they have been confirmed surprisingly close to Chattanooga. I have no doubt they are in the GSMNP and Cherokee NF.
    Too my knowledge Tennessee has confirmed some sightings in 2015 and 2016, which could be one cougar, but has not acknowledged a "population".

    https://www.tn.gov/twra/article/cougars-in-tennessee

    Do you have a source for acknowledgement of a "population" ?

  9. #309
    Registered User Speakeasy TN's Avatar
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    https://www.tn.gov/twra/article/coug....UfFsHuFB.dpuf
    http://twra.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Sto...6200e5ed1ccbab

    And I have an " unofficially confirmed " local cat about 20 miles outside Chattanooga.


    At a certain point you just lose the odds of them all being wandering males.

  10. #310

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speakeasy TN View Post
    https://www.tn.gov/twra/article/coug....UfFsHuFB.dpuf
    http://twra.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Sto...6200e5ed1ccbab
    And I have an " unofficially confirmed " local cat about 20 miles outside Chattanooga.
    At a certain point you just lose the odds of them all being wandering males.
    The first link documents only 10 confirmed sightings since 2015. Also in the first link, when discussing midwestern expansion is the statement:

    "This expansion does not equate to population establishment. Population establishment only occurs where reproducing females are documented. Considering that there are large expanses between Tennessee and the established populations, it will likely be a long time before cougars make their home here."

    Maybe the cougars will establish a population in TN, and maybe not, but if it happens it probably won't be soon according to the experts.

  11. #311

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    Sightings are not typically considered reliable and as such are in the supporting information category. Were sightings alone a standard of proof, sasquatch and a variety of space beings would be in the Forest Fauna books.

  12. #312

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    I recently saw an news article on the New Hampshire statute covering agricultural damage payments to farmers for damage caused by wild animals. They normally have to pay out for bear damage but the statute apparently also lists mountain lion damages. Considering they were wiped out long ago in the state I expect they havent paid out for awhile.

    Of course there are frequently reports of Bobcat and Lynx in the state and I expect more than few chickens have been killed and on occasion they are reported as Mountain Lions.

  13. #313
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    A story in my family history involves the killing of a troublesome mountain lion in Gilmanton, NH. The men brought the carcass into the house and put it on the dining room table (must have made my great-grandmother unhappy) where it stretched 12 feet from nose to tail.
    "It goes to show you never can tell." - Charles Edward Anderson Berry

  14. #314

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    Sightings are not typically considered reliable and as such are in the supporting information category. Were sightings alone a standard of proof, sasquatch and a variety of space beings would be in the Forest Fauna books.
    Nine of the ten confirmed TN sightings were from trail cameras, and one was from DNA analysis of a fur sample.

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Grouse View Post
    A story in my family history involves the killing of a troublesome mountain lion in Gilmanton, NH. The men brought the carcass into the house and put it on the dining room table (must have made my great-grandmother unhappy) where it stretched 12 feet from nose to tail.
    Sounds like it grew a fair bit over the years.
    "It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how." ---Dr. Seuss

  16. #316

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    Quote Originally Posted by gpburdelljr View Post
    Nine of the ten confirmed TN sightings were from trail cameras, and one was from DNA analysis of a fur sample.
    That would be photographic and scientific based evidence where positive identification can be made. Witness accounts are different and are are considered supporting evidence in most instances.

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Bill View Post
    Sounds like it grew a fair bit over the years.
    No, the table's still the same size.
    "It goes to show you never can tell." - Charles Edward Anderson Berry

  18. #318
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    Thru-hiked in 2013. I do a 500-mile section every summer these days. In July, I walked right up on a cougar just before Tar Jacket Ridge in Central VA. Froze when I saw it and it slowly walked off the trail. Same feeling in my gut as walking up on a moose in Maine while night hiking.

  19. #319
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    They act just like big pussy cats :-)


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