Religious activities

[Skyline]

Tray, there's nothing "LNT" about a shelter and it's surrounding area. A few pamphlets hurt jack *****t. In 17 years of AT hiking I've never seen pamphlets flying around the shelters like some describe. It's a f**cking non-issue! Y'all need to worry about much more important issues.

I've only been using the A.T. for a decade, but on some occasions I HAVE seen religious materials left by proselytizers in shelters. Quite a few Bibles, tho that may not be quite the same as leaflets I admit, but also multiple copies of "The Watchtower" (Jehovah's Witnesses) in PA, a bunch of leaflets that yelled "Repent!" in NC, religious-oriented material that qualified as hate-speech in VT in 2000 (the year the gay civil unions thing was a big deal up there), and certainly more tho I can't place the exact state or year right off. And then there are those few who monopolize two, three, or more pages of a register writing religious diatribes--I've seen that at the shelter I maintain in SNP.

It's not just the litter that these people leave behind that is disturbing--after all, unless soaking wet it can make great fire-starter. It's also the pollution of the mood and tone many of us seek when we go into the woods for a long hike. And this pollution extends to not just religious zealots but anyone else attempting to use the captive audience of those on the A.T. to promote an agenda, whatever the agenda.

But I agree, Lone Wolf, that a shelter in and of itself is, in a way, anti-LNT. But a necessary one. The alternative would be scores and scores of additional primitive campsites including no doubt some in places they don't belong that would cause far more damage. And shelters generally have a maintainer who is supposed to make regular visits to keep them clean, tidy, and in good repair. Don't think there are enough volunteers out there to do that with all those aforementioned campsites.

[Alligator]

Response is to Deeddawg, post 79. Keep in mind that I said “single religious faith”.The legality of the placement of the ten commandments monument had nothing to do with whether Mr. Moore was a government official. If any non-government group or person had done it, it would still have been removed. The problem with the monument was that it promoted a single faith and that it was on government property in an accessible area that was public.Now, if there are several religions represented, this has been deemed lawful. Holiday representations in December are an example. If we have a Chanukah lights, a nativity scene, some Kwanzaa candles, and maybe a sun or something for the solstice, that’s OK. So, that individual leaving bibles in every shelter they come to is stepping on my rights. If they wish to leave a variety of materials, or partner with other organizations to do so, this would probably pass legal muster. In fact, a nice enclosed shelf with a variety of religious writings (in addition to the atheists point of view) in it would be blessing to us all, so that we could all read a little bit about other faiths. It might certainly dispel some of the ignorant, narrow-minded posts concerning world religions that were posted here.It’s not the bible sitting there bothering me. It’s the motive and lack of respect of the person who left it. As I have said previously, that single left bible is a message. “I don’t respect your beliefs enough to not bother you. I’m going to leave this here, without you asking because you need to convert.” I know this because of the pamphlets left or the writings left in the shelter register. Sure, I recognize that maybe somebody left it for simply comfort, but this is usually not the case. It’s usually someone “Spreading the WORD”. As to hotel bibles, that’s a private business matter. The factors at work are numerous. Can you imagine the hotel chain taking them out publicly? Huge economic loss. Is the bible in the room a promotion of Christianity. Sure, a big fat ad. Ever seen anything else besides a bible? (I’ll bet you’d see a Book of Mormon in Utah.) Do you honestly think that other groups that have no interest in this area, or financing to accomplish it? Are my observations scientific? No, but I’m not interested in polling hotel owners. My second argument is LNT, pack it in pack it out. And thanks, I don’t think I could have found the Bill of Rights without you. Do you think you could find me a link to the Declaration of Independence?

[deeddawg]

And thanks, I don’t think I could have found the Bill of Rights without you. Do you think you could find me a link to the Declaration of Independence?

Sure thing: Declaration of Independence

No reason to get snippy; I did not have any intention of being condescending, and I'm sorry you seem to think that. I have encountered many people who call upon the Bill of Rights to support an argument without having actually read the document.

As to your other points, we will have to agree to disagree as much of it is a matter of interpretation and making assumptions about the motives of anonymous persons. I see leaving a bible as making available a resource for those who choose to read; it is as much an "advertisement" for Christianity as a dictionary is an advertisement for proper spelling and increasing one's vocabulary. (hey, maybe a dictionary is a criticism against people who misspell words when writing in the shelter register?) Even if I viewed a bible as an advertisement, so long as no single group were given special consideration over others then I say go for it. But that my opinion; I offer it for consideration but by no means say you have to agree.

I guess I've just never felt threatened or imposed upon by inanimate objects representing faiths different from mine; they're just inanimate objects after all.

Cheers.

[c.coyle]

Hey, it's gonna be a beautiful, sunny, balmy weekend in Pennsylvania. Think I'll get up at 0600 Sunday, throw some things in the old pack, and go for a hike in Penns Woods. Maybe climb up Pole Steeple, look down at the lake, eat oranges with my wife. Afterwards, stop at a convenient publick house and celebrate with a few Yuenglings (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=682)



This hiking sure is serious business.

[Alligator]

Sure thing: Declaration of Independence

No reason to get snippy; I did not have any intention of being condescending, and I'm sorry you seem to think that. I have encountered many people who call upon the Bill of Rights to support an argument without having actually read the document.

It was condescending. I have read the Bill of Rights and the Constitution several times. Even studied the parts that were crossed out and the compromises that led to their deletion.

If there was a dictionary left in the shelter, I would definitely be wondering about motive. Like, "Who the f*&k carries a dictionary into the woods?"

Beyond the litter factor, it's really not the objects that bother me. It's the prosyletizing fanatic who left it there.

No need to write an answer for this but, "Do you really think that the person who humps a bible out to the shelter is leaving it as an ordinary book for someone to 'just read', with no ulterior motive"?

[deeddawg]

It was condescending.

As I said, it was not intended to be condescending; I guess I sometimes write for an audience more than just the person to whom I am replying. Nevertheless, you took it that way and so therefore I apologize.

If there was a dictionary left in the shelter, I would definitely be wondering about motive. Like, "Who the f*&k carries a dictionary into the woods?"

Beyond the litter factor, it's really not the objects that bother me. It's the prosyletizing fanatic who left it there.

No need to write an answer for this but, "Do you really think that the person who humps a bible out to the shelter is leaving it as an ordinary book for someone to 'just read', with no ulterior motive"?

Heh. It was, of course, an analogy. I too would probably wonder amusedly about someone who left a dictionary at a shelter.

I'm just about discussed out on this topic (do I hear Jack applauding?), so let me pose a rhetorical question in response. If the "prosyletizing fanatic" is no longer there, why does it matter why he or she left whatever he or she left? The object merely sits there quietly. (this is apart from the "litter" factor of stuff like tracts and pamphlets, I speak only of something such as a book or a bible, placed out of the way)

[Jack Tarlin]

Hey Alligator----

Considering your trailname, you're kinda thin-skinned. For someone who's so quick to take offense at other people's posts, or who finds other people's attitudes to be condescending, I must say that you could use a little tact yourself:

First off, the mere act of leaving a bible in a shelter does not make someone a fanatic, and your deliberate use of this term is as offensive at is it ignorant. And while I'd agree that asking a stranger personal questions about their spiritual beliefs is rude and unacceptable, I don't think that leaving a bible in a public place can be considered "proseletyzing." After all, nobody is forced to read this material, or even pick it up. Nobody is actively and forcefully attempting to convert anyone or change their religion (which is what "proseletyzing" means, by the way). In short, I don't think leaving a book in a shelter is that big an issue, and I can't for the life of me figure out why some folks are so bent out of shape over this.

If one is offended by, or disinterested in a particular TV show, movie, or musical performance, then one switches channels or goes to a different show. For example, nobody's forced to buy Michael Jackson albums; no one's forced to listen to National Public Radio; nobody's compelled to attend Britney Spears concerts or made to watch Michael Moore documentaries.

If one is offended by a particular person or public figure, such as a celebrity or politician, then you don't buy their records, don't see or support their public performances, don't vote for them, etc. For example, if you think Rosie O'Donnell is vulgar, load, and obnoxious, then don't see the show she's producing on Broadway. You can't stand John Kerry? Well don't vote for him. You think the Victoria's Secret special is unseemly? Well don't watch it, or buy some other brand of undie.

And in this vein, if one is troubled by a magazine, newspaper, or book, then you don't purchase it, and it's offerred to you for free, you simply decline to read it. No one is forcing you to pick it up.

Why is this concept so difficult for some folks to grasp?
And why are some folks so threatened by the mere presence of a book?

Honestly, folks, the energy expended on this entirely trivial matter is getting more than a little bit silly.

[mntman777]

It was condescending. I have read the Bill of Rights and the Constitution several times. Even studied the parts that were crossed out and the compromises that led to their deletion.

If there was a dictionary left in the shelter, I would definitely be wondering about motive. Like, "Who the f*&k carries a dictionary into the woods?"

Beyond the litter factor, it's really not the objects that bother me. It's the prosyletizing fanatic who left it there.

No need to write an answer for this but, "Do you really think that the person who humps a bible out to the shelter is leaving it as an ordinary book for someone to 'just read', with no ulterior motive"?

Again I've never left any bibles in the shelters or anything for that matter. But so what if there is an ulterior motive, you still don't have to read it. I think you need to grow up and get over it.

[mntman777]

Hey Alligator----

Considering your trailname, you're kinda thin-skinned. For someone who's so quick to take offense at other people's posts, or who finds other people's attitudes to be condescending, I must say that you could use a little tact yourself:

First off, the mere act of leaving a bible in a shelter does not make someone a fanatic, and your deliberate use of this term is as offensive at is it ignorant. And while I'd agree that asking a stranger personal questions about their spiritual beliefs is rude and unacceptable, I don't think that leaving a bible in a public place can be considered "proseletyzing." After all, nobody is forced to read this material, or even pick it up. Nobody is actively and forcefully attempting to convert anyone or change their religion (which is what "proseletyzing" means, by the way). In short, I don't think leaving a book in a shelter is that big an issue, and I can't for the life of me figure out why some folks are so bent out of shape over this.

If one is offended by, or disinterested in a particular TV show, movie, or musical performance, then one switches channels or goes to a different show. For example, nobody's forced to buy Michael Jackson albums; no one's forced to listen to National Public Radio; nobody's compelled to attend Britney Spears concerts or made to watch Michael Moore documentaries.

If one is offended by a particular person or public figure, such as a celebrity or politician, then you don't buy their records, don't see or support their public performances, don't vote for them, etc. For example, if you think Rosie O'Donnell is vulgar, load, and obnoxious, then don't see the show she's producing on Broadway. You can't stand John Kerry? Well don't vote for him. You think the Victoria's Secret special is unseemly? Well don't watch it, or buy some other brand of undie.

And in this vein, if one is troubled by a magazine, newspaper, or book, then you don't purchase it, and it's offerred to you for free, you simply decline to read it. No one is forcing you to pick it up.

Why is this concept so difficult for some folks to grasp?
And why are some folks so threatened by the mere presence of a book?

Honestly, folks, the energy expended on this entirely trivial matter is getting more than a little bit silly.

Once again Jack i like what you have to say. We may not agree on everything, but then we don't live in a perfect world. I look forward to meeting you again on the trail one day. Ken

[The Old Fhart]

I didn’t hike the A.T. to find God because I’m pretty sure he’s not lost and I know where he is. If he wants I’m sure he can find me without a GPS receiver or someone preaching to me on the trail. I carry the Old and New Testament in electronic form with me as I hike and I have read the entire Koran (in translation) and I can tell you this: The words of the various scriptures and how various religious sects interpret these teachings are worlds apart. The Koran is an amazingly liberal book and describes the world’s various religions as different trails to the top of the same mountain. As a hiker I can readily understand that analogy and I agree with it. It does not say one religion is better than another one or that we should convert others by Jihad or acts of terror; only extremists do that. For some of you to belittle other religions or say they are false is hypocritical and “unchristian”, if I can use that word without offending anyone. While I’m not offended by Bibles in shelters, at the same time I really don’t see the point of leaving them there. If a hiker feels the need to have religious material with them to show them the way, they can carry that material with them the same way they would carry maps or guidebooks if they want to find their physical way on the trail. They should not rely on, or expect others, to supply them with their spiritual or physical needs.
The bottom line is that if I want to discuss someone’s religion with them that is fine, each of us might learn something. But if that person is so closed-minded and only wants to convert me to their religion or convince me of the evil in my ways then they have crossed the line from discussion or debate and are not much better than any other zealot or extremist. One of the prime tenets of any religion is tolerance for the beliefs and rights of others (Judge not least ye be judged- I can quote the Bible with the best of them). We should all try to be respectful of others we meet as we hike the trail.
To L. Wolf: Sempi Fi, but I think you need another stick to jab people and stir things up; your old one is getting worn from use but keep up the good work- see you at Trail Days.
To Jack Tarlin: see you on Trashgiving and I’ve got another long and pointless story to tell you.
To all others: keep your faith, and please, keep it to yourself.

[Crash]

RainMan:

as for literature, books, maps, etc, left in shelters.....i'm a true believer in
LEAVE NO TRACE...& that includes paper(s) of any kind.

Then the all the AT clubs are in violation for leaving REGISTERS in the shelters.

It would be great to find all the books- bible, koran, talmud, book of morman, etc in a shelter. Hey, even literature from atheists, agnostics too.

Sometimes you need a little inspiration that the books can bring to you.

All of them are telling us to be better persons by loving others and treating them decently.

So leave the books for everyone to read and contemplate and make our Trail a little better.

[mntman777]

I didn’t hike the A.T. to find God because I’m pretty sure he’s not lost and I know where he is. If he wants I’m sure he can find me without a GPS receiver or someone preaching to me on the trail. I carry the Old and New Testament in electronic form with me as I hike and I have read the entire Koran (in translation) and I can tell you this: The words of the various scriptures and how various religious sects interpret these teachings are worlds apart. The Koran is an amazingly liberal book and describes the world’s various religions as different trails to the top of the same mountain. As a hiker I can readily understand that analogy and I agree with it. It does not say one religion is better than another one or that we should convert others by Jihad or acts of terror; only extremists do that. For some of you to belittle other religions or say they are false is hypocritical and “unchristian”, if I can use that word without offending anyone. While I’m not offended by Bibles in shelters, at the same time I really don’t see the point of leaving them there. If a hiker feels the need to have religious material with them to show them the way, they can carry that material with them the same way they would carry maps or guidebooks if they want to find their physical way on the trail. They should not rely on, or expect others, to supply them with their spiritual or physical needs.
The bottom line is that if I want to discuss someone’s religion with them that is fine, each of us might learn something. But if that person is so closed-minded and only wants to convert me to their religion or convince me of the evil in my ways then they have crossed the line from discussion or debate and are not much better than any other zealot or extremist. One of the prime tenets of any religion is tolerance for the beliefs and rights of others (Judge not least ye be judged- I can quote the Bible with the best of them). We should all try to be respectful of others we meet as we hike the trail.
To L. Wolf: Sempi Fi, but I think you need another stick to jab people and stir things up; your old one is getting worn from use but keep up the good work- see you at Trail Days.
To Jack Tarlin: see you on Trashgiving and I’ve got another long and pointless story to tell you.
To all others: keep your faith, and please, keep it to yourself.

You should try reading the bible "again' because to believe that there are many ways to God, is to contradict what the bible says. I'm only saying this in case someone reading this wants to know the truthe. And to keep it to myself would also be contrary to Gods word. Because he says to go into all the lands and share the good news. May God bless you all.

[Alligator]

You folks all seem to think that I sit there staring at the bible angrily, circling the shelter, wondering if I should go in fearing that the book might open, then close around my head.

It is the act of leaving it there that bothers me. Not the book, the act and the person performing the act. People keep saying "Why does the bible threaten/bother you?" It's not the book...not the book...it's the person who is infringing on my hike out of some need to convince me to join their religion.

[mntman777]

You folks all seem to think that I sit there staring at the bible angrily, circling the shelter, wondering if I should go in fearing that the book might open, then close around my head.

It is the act of leaving it there that bothers me. Not the book, the act and the person performing the act. People keep saying "Why does the bible threaten/bother you?" It's not the book...not the book...it's the person who is infringing on my hike out of some need to convince me to join their religion.

Alligator, I just want you to know although I personally have not left a bible or anything else, regaurding my beliefs at any shelter or anywhere else for that matter. I want to truely apologise to you for ever posting anything about my beliefs to this thread. It seems you have a real issue with this. So I'm truely sorry. Peace to you all.

[Alligator]

Hey Alligator----

Considering your trailname, you're kinda thin-skinned. For someone who's so quick to take offense at other people's posts, or who finds other people's attitudes to be condescending, I must say that you could use a little tact yourself:

First off, the mere act of leaving a bible in a shelter does not make someone a fanatic, and your deliberate use of this term is as offensive at is it ignorant. And while I'd agree that asking a stranger personal questions about their spiritual beliefs is rude and unacceptable, I don't think that leaving a bible in a public place can be considered "proseletyzing." After all, nobody is forced to read this material, or even pick it up. Nobody is actively and forcefully attempting to convert anyone or change their religion (which is what "proseletyzing" means, by the way). In short, I don't think leaving a book in a shelter is that big an issue, and I can't for the life of me figure out why some folks are so bent out of shape over this.

Honestly, folks, the energy expended on this entirely trivial matter is getting more than a little bit silly.

Now listen here Cleveland Jack, let's not get clever with trailnames.

Let's talk definitions, where's that dictionary Deeddawg had, must've left it at the shelter. I'll have to use Miriam-Webster online.

“fanatic”
: marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion

[to God] emphasis added.

One week while hiking, I had the benefit of hiking behind a "bible dropper". I was a week or two behind him, can't remember exactly. But while reading the shelter registers, I noticed this person was keeping track of the number left behind. The person was on 18th last I read, with the intention of leaving one in every shelter on the trail. The bibles weren't pocket sized, but were wider and taller than a thick paperback. That's excessive enthusiasm in my book. So is leaving books in places that are often miles and miles away from civilization in the vain hope that some uncommitted soul will suddenly convert to Christianity.

“proselytize”
1 : to induce someone to convert to one's faith
2 : to recruit someone to join one's party, institution, or cause
transitive senses : to recruit or convert especially to a new faith, institution, or cause

“induce”
1 a : to move by persuasion or influence b : to call forth or bring about by influence or stimulation

The word force is not in the definition.

The people who leave bibles in the shelters are mostly aiming to persuade or influence me to become a Christian. I'll back off here because that's a bit stereotypical. To those Christians leaving bibles for the spriritual health of their fellow Christians, I apologize for lumping you in with the overly enthusiastic proselytizing crowd. I am actually sorry that I have had to focus on Christians and bibles. But to those Christians leaving bibles in order to effect conversion, I say lighten up. Get those extra bibles off your backs before you get into the woods.

Oh and Jack, if you think this is a trivial issue, don't post, nobody turned your browser to this thread.

[Alligator]

As I said, it was not intended to be condescending; I guess I sometimes write for an audience more than just the person to whom I am replying. Nevertheless, you took it that way and so therefore I apologize.




Heh. It was, of course, an analogy. I too would probably wonder amusedly about someone who left a dictionary at a shelter.

Accepted. Since I really was trying to be snippy I'm sorry for being a wise-ass.

[illininagel]

You should try reading the bible "again' because to believe that there are many ways to God, is to contradict what the bible says. I'm only saying this in case someone reading this wants to know the truthe. And to keep it to myself would also be contrary to Gods word. Because he says to go into all the lands and share the good news. May God bless you all.

How wonderful and convenient (for you that is)! Your way is the only way. And what happens to the rest of us? I'm almost afraid to ask as I'm sure it's something quite terrible. It's probably something that even the most sinister human being wouldn't wish upon another soul.

And, this is my LAST thread on this matter. This site should be all about hiking. It's just that I find it very offensive when someone condemns others for their beliefs. God granted us free will for a reason. And it's not: "your free to go to H*ll if you don't do exactly as I say." Enough said.

May God Bless You...

[Alligator]

Hey, I thought ass would be blocked out in wise-ass. Vulgarity is usually censored. *ass, bad-ass, (ass) [email protected] Sorry just making a you know what out of myself

[Chappy]

Alligator: You're beginning to sound as arrogant and intolerant as WF. Wanna switch this thread to cellphones?

[10degrees]

You should try reading the bible "again' because to believe that there are many ways to God, is to contradict what the bible says. I'm only saying this in case someone reading this wants to know the truthe. And to keep it to myself would also be contrary to Gods word. Because he says to go into all the lands and share the good news. May God bless you all.

Hey, god didn't say those things. There is no god. Some camel ridin' hippy with nothing better to do wrote it (at least as interpreted by someone with even less to do).