stoves
Planning a thru-hike how easy is it to get alcohol along the trail as compared to white gas.
Availability
Quite easy. When I thruhiked in 2000, I never had trouble finding it, and this was when the only commercially available alcohol stove was the Trangia. You should have little trouble finding it in any trail town now.
On a side note, I was able to go about 3-4 weeks on each "fill-up." I used a plain tuna can (for my stove) and used a 20oz soda bottle for the fuel. I cooked 1 meal/day and an occassional hot tea before bed.
-Howie
P.S. I see you're from AL. Where at? I'm in Montgomery.
Originally Posted by hikerdg
In 2002, you could get either whitegas or alcohol (by the ounce) at Walasi-Yi, Hot Springs, Erwin (at Uncle Johnny's, but I'm sure Miss Janet can also direct you where to find it), and, I think, Damascus. They definitely had cannisters in Hot Springs and Damascus, and I believe you could also fill up at the NOC (with any fuel). Note that a full 20oz. bottle of denatured is enough for about 15-20 boils (enough to cook up a double Liptons or Ramen, etc).
The Campground at Rainbow springs also has alkyhol fuel
"I'd rather kill a man than a snake. Not because I love snakes or hate men. It is a question, rather, of proportion." Edward Abbey
I had trouble finding alcohol in Bristol, VT on my Long Trail trip this year. I tried an auto parts store, gas station, and grocery store looking for yellow Heet. Only found the red stuff with isopropanol. Hardware store was too far out of town. Ended up with some generic gas line antifreeze that said it was part methanol and part isopropanol. Must have been mostly isopropanol because it stunk and covered my pot and windscreen with soot. Ended up leaving that soot on a white washrag in a hotel room.
I know a lot of folks on here are all for alcohol but I'm not too keen on it. I may get a multi fuel stove but may just stick with white gas. Is white gas the easiest fuel to get hold of?
No, regular gas is by far the most common. That is why I still mostly use a universal gas stove for long distance hikes. You don't even have to concern yourself about fuel availability, it's everywhere. I like alcohol for weight, but sometimes it is not easy to find.
So an MSR Pocket Rocket would be a good choice?
The DragonFly, Expedition and WhisperLite look better but they're also heavier and a damn sight more expensive.
If there's one thing I'm pretty clueless on, it's stoves!
stoves
I use alcohol now, but have used the Wisperlight for many years. If it's really "wisper" light, you might want to fire up your choice and see how much noise it makes. Some of them sound like a 747 taking off over your head! I think the white or multi-fuel stoves are a good, close, second choice to what I use. Not only is white or regular gas more available, it heats things up a lot quicker.
Don't waste time telling people what you are doing or what you are going to do. Results have a way of informing the world.
Coleman fuel available
Matt, in 2001 and 2002, coleman fuel was readily available between Georgia and Maine. In fact, a few places had open cans that you could just top off you bottle gratus. I never had any problem finding fuel and did not need to resort to using gas from a gas station. Most sources are listed in Wingfoot or the Companion. So, look at these books and figure out how it fits in with your resupply plans.
No, the Pocket Rocket is a canister (propane) stove and canisters could be the most difficult to find (although some may disagree). The Pocket Rocket is a great stove, a little blast furnace that heats water very fast and has close to the light weight of alcohol.
Alcohol:
Plusses - lightest, fairly easy to find
Minuses - Poor heating time in winter
Universal Gas:
Plusses - By far the most easy to find, very short heating time
Minuses - Expensive and half to a pound heavier.
I own almost every stove and on a 1000 mile hike I take a MSR Dragonfly, but I'm a go heavy guy who likes to eat and use the simmer feature. I also like not even having to think about fuel. Most people use alcohol and I can clearly understand why.
Backpacking Stoves I have:
- MSR Whisperlite International (Multi-Fuel)
- MSR Pocket Rocket
- Trangia
- Soda-Can Stove
For 3-Season use I take the Soda-Can stove. Lightweight, easy to use, and quiet. It does take a little while longer to boil water over the Gasoline/Canister stoves, but they simmer great. But now that I have used them alot, I might consider taking my Trangia instead, even though it weighs a couple ounces more. I'd do this for the durability, and ability to store/save fuel inside it.
In the winter I take my Pocket Rocket. Last winter I used my Whisperheavy, but I gave the Pocket Rocket another chance after being dissapointed with my first try, and have grown to like it. I would not reccomend taking it anywhere outside of what you can carry for fuel canisters, as they can be difficult to find. They are also expensive at around $5 a pop.
"A man builds a fine house; and now he has a master, and a task for life; he is to furnish, watch, show it, and keep it in repair, the rest of his days".
...Ralph Waldo Emerson
GA-ME Someday (Maybe '06?)
Many Miles in Massachusetts & Vermont...
Alcohol doesn't take longer....
One thing that I'm seeing frequently in this thread is the idea that Alcohol takes longer than white-gas stoves to boil water. While white-gas stoves certainly cook faster than alcohol stoves, I've beaten my whisper-lite and dragonfly carrying friends to boiling water many times on the trail. How?
one word: priming.
When using a liquid-fuel stove such as white-gas stoves, the fuel must be vaporized before passing through the jets in order to create a controlled blue flame. This means cracking the fuel line and preheating (or priming) the stove to vaporize the fuel already in the fuel line (you're basically running one cycle so the stove can do the rest). It takes anywhere between 1-2 minutes to do this.
Alcohol stoves (at least the ones that I use), need no priming. Simply light and cook. This 1-2 minutes of priming is enough for my simple tuna can to out-perform either a whisper-lite or dragonfly type almost every time.
Only canister stoves are quicker than alcohol (their fuel is pre-vaporized in the canister).
Another note to emphasize availability. White gas is everywhere. Nearly every trail town has one source, many have several sources (hostel, outfitter, some restaurants, etc). Many of these sources are also "pay by the ounce" instead of being forced to purchase an entire gallon of it. In the past few years, many of these same places have seen the need to also carry alcohol. So while it's not AS available as white-gas, it is still very much available. That, and with on 20-oz bottle, I could go about 400-500 trail miles (or 3-4 weeks) every time. To combat its lesser availability (and this was in 2000), I usually began looking for it one week in advance...just in case. I never needed this buffer, though. I always found it when I needed it).
-Howie
Alcohol Stoves
Someone needs to make the Trangia stove out of Titanium. I'll be the first to buy one! Also, how much alcohol do you thru hikers take with you? 8oz, 10 oz 20oz, quart?
John Carnahan
[email protected]
I take a 20 oz. soda bottle, but the amount of alcohol in it varies with when and where I am hiking. I use about an ounce a day during mild weather, 3-5 oz. in the cold. Bottles of HEET come in 12 oz. sizes and that is what I usually refill with, unless I happen to run into a jug of denatured in a hiker box or find a place that sells by the ounce.
2 minutes to prime your Whisperlite? Holy crap!
I can usually have a whispertorch up and melting pots in well under a minute. I just make a massive priming flame, which takes about 10sec to prime the stove, crack the valve, and fire away! The longest part is packing up after using Unleaded Gasoline, as it soots everywhere, but I think Unleaded Gas is alot easier to get than white Gas, atleast around where I live anyways
I would never even consider using an alcohol stove in my tent, but in the winter its a great convenience to do your cooking inside with the door flap half open (for the CO and Water Vapor). This is why I use a canister stove in the winter. Canister stoves are also easier to control with cold hands over fumbling with the trangia simmer cap. Before I re-adopted the Pocket Rocket, I was using the Whisperlite, which forced me to go outside my tent. I certainly love alcohol stoves, but there are certain circumstances where their instability is not worth their 2-6oz savings over a canister stove.
In my personal tests outdoors (outside of the controlled atmosphere kitchen type testing) alcohol stoves are terrible in the cold and wind, whisperheavies are juggernauts, and canister stoves are healthy mediums that provide a safe fuel source.
If you want to try something fun, fire up a pocket rocket and tip it upside down
Just my $0.02
"A man builds a fine house; and now he has a master, and a task for life; he is to furnish, watch, show it, and keep it in repair, the rest of his days".
...Ralph Waldo Emerson
GA-ME Someday (Maybe '06?)
Many Miles in Massachusetts & Vermont...
RH, have you used the canister stove in real winter conditions, like -20? Do you have to preheat the canister? Conventional wisdom used to be that canister stoves didn't work in winter (butane turns to liquid at some temperature), but I guess there are gas mixtures these days that are better.
Haven't tested it when it was that cold, but tested it around 0*F +/- a few degrees. What I've been doing is putting it under my jacket for a few minutes, and this is usually enough to fire it up. Last winter, the first time I tried the Pocket Rocket I had problems getting the fuel to vaporize, but have learned the subtle downsides of the PocketRocket and adapted to them.
The zero-spill nature of the stove, and instant max heat output is what sells canister stoves to me for winter use. There is also a big difference between Iso-Butane canisters, and n-Butane canisters due to their vaporization pressures. Iso-Butane mixtures burn much better in the cold. Then again Iso-Butane is the only canister fuel I've used besides basic propane for my coleman stove.
But even alcohol stoves perform poorly in the temperatures you mentioned (if at all). Whisperheavies are certainly the juggernaut (as I mentioned) when it comes to winter camping (in my limited experience anyways), but if you stick the fuel in your jacket to warm it up a bit, canister stoves are perfectly viable stoves for winter use. It's also the only stove I'd trust to use inside a tent. So far so good anyways
EDIT:
Canister stove fuel is actually mostly liquid in the can anyways. Shake a canister and you can here it slosh around. The liquid fuel in the canister vaporizes to fill the void not taken up by the fluid. Warming the canister builds up the pressure. I have noticed a difference in performance between a full canister and an almost empty one though.
From the Mountaineer's Bible, Freedom of the Hills...
"Butane cartridge stoves are popular because of their convenience: easy to light, good flame control, immediate maximum heat output, and no chance of fuel spills. the pressure forces teh fuel out as soon as the valve is opened, eliminating both pumping and priming. Most butane stoves are not recommended for temperatures below freezing unless the fuel is warmed. An exception is a stove that uses isobutane fuel, which has performed well at high altitude and in cold, wet conditions. With it's windscreen/heat reflector, this stove has proven superior in wind as well."
"A man builds a fine house; and now he has a master, and a task for life; he is to furnish, watch, show it, and keep it in repair, the rest of his days".
...Ralph Waldo Emerson
GA-ME Someday (Maybe '06?)
Many Miles in Massachusetts & Vermont...
canister stove in cold
I actually just had my first chance over thanksgiving in Moab to use our canister stove in the cold. It was in the high teens and the stove did have MUCH lower output when I left it outside all night and then just tried to fire it up. The output started to drop as time went on, but it was more than enough to heat up a little water, which I then poured onto a flat bottomed bowl (we were car camping, but a tuperware would have worked) which really boosted the output back to norm. The next day I brought the stove into my sleeping bag with me, and it did fine the next morning, but the output was dropping, so I poured some hot water off again.
It would be very easy to get some copper tubing to wrap around the canister and stick in near the flame to keep the canister warm, but you have to be careful not to overheat the canister!
Gravity Man
PS It was isobutane fuel.
re: canisters in cold
Canister stoves don't do that well in extreme cold because of the nature of their fuel. The best way to use a canister in extreme cold is to have multiple canisters. Use one until it won't go anymore, than switch it out for the next. Put the one you were using under your coat to warm it up again, and then when that one goes out, switch them again. When it gets really cold, this is the only way they'll work. Using a windscreen that ecompasses the canister is very dangerous...it could blow up.
P.S. R. Hampster - do you use a windscreen for your gas stoves? If you do, then why not use one for alcohol? The fact that most don't use jets or vaporized fuel means that they're inherintly more susceptible to wind. It makes plenty of since to use a full windscreen. They're noticably more efficient this way, too.
-Howie
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