suggestion for security on the trail

[Toolshed]

Typical knee-jerk reaction to a senseless crime on our turf. For the safety sake of all hikers, please leave the guns at home. Accidents can be just as deadly as senseless crimes.

Baaaaaaa......Baaaaaaaaaaaa..........

[trlhiker]

Even though this most recent tragic case has brought guns back into the discussion, I don't think it would have made a difference in this one case.

I have no doubt that a 24-year-old woman in top physical condition could have outrun this 60-year-old man, if she'd recognized the danger in time -- more easily than she could have pulled a gun and shot at him. That she didn't suggests that he caught her at a disadvantage. That's what predators do.

My feeling exactly. She had apperantly been talking to him for some time up and down the trail, according to reports. He waited until they got back to the parking area and in the moment that she had her back to him, he struck, this by evidence in the parking area. No gun or any other weapon would have helped her. So by all means bring your gun, just don't ever turn your back to a stranger. Cause at that point your gun is useless.

[JF2CBR]

Ever hear the phrase:

"Don't bring a knife to a gunfight"??

[4eyedbuzzard]

I often carry a small .380 automatic concealed. It's usually in my right hand jacket pocket, and if not, in my right front pants pocket when I'm not wearing a jacket. It's in my sleeping bag at night if I'm carrying it while hiking(and just FWIW, I don't ALWAYS carry). I don't carry it in a place it would be useless, such as in my pack, etc. And I can honestly access it in seconds without fumbling.

Here's the reality though. If you aren't somehow alerted to danger prior to being attacked, it will be difficult to respond regardless if you're armed or not. If a guy hides behind a rock and takes you out as you pass, you're in deep doo-doo. If you're sound asleep, reacting successfully to an attacker who is in control of the situation is incredibly unlikely. If someone really wants to kill you that badly, and they have any degree of intelligence, you are most likely gonna die. They are gonna get the drop on you whether you're armed or not.

So why carry? Because most criminals DO tend to tip their hand. Most commonly they'll appear out of place/suspicious, doing things that don't fit the context of the situation. Often you don't pick up exactly what it is at the time, but it's usually a combination of appearance, body language, eye contact, hands, etc. But it still puts you on alert. Less commonly they'll be too friendly, say something threatening, act aggressive or even display a weapon in plain view before attacking. Carrying a lethal weapon DOES greatly increase your odds of survivng a violent attack even with limited warning. Attacks against armed persons are much less successful than those against unarmed ones. And obviously, the more weapons and combat shooting training you have, the better.

But weapons aren't the end all of self-defense, situational awareness(aka self-defense awareness) and control are. You are always better off avoiding an attack by any means than you are engaging an attacker in a fight. If gaining/staying in control means avoidance, you do so. Running away remains the most successful human survival strategy of all time. But here's the rub in my situation: I can't run fast or far anymore, nor do I think I would fare very well in hand-to-hand combat, due to several physical injuries in the past. If I'm threatened or attacked, I'm pretty much in for the fight due to these mobility issues. And I want every advantage I can possibly have should such a situation arise. And I will not hesitate to put two into the center of mass of anyone who trys to make me their next victim.

Most criminals attacks center on either money or sex. And one of the best defenses is not to look like an easy victim or draw attention to yourself. Most of the normal warnings apply here. Don't hike alone if you don't have to, if you do, try to stealth through road areas. Stay clear of shelters where locals party or homeless people frequent. Don't display large amounts of money in towns. Don't party hard with total strangers. Keep an eye on your drinks(date rape drugging). Be really careful hitch-hiking. Rides in open bed pick-ups are best, vans(especially with no windows) are the absolute worst. Never, ever, get into any vehicle without seeing who else in inside first. Look to see that the door handles are still attached. If it starts feeling wierd, get the hell away ASAP. Women should be especially wary of "all the usual suspects."

Given the recent incident, what can be said about psycho killers other than the fact that they are out there. Their appearance and demeanor can never be predicted. But like other criminals, they remain opportunists, and being aware of that is our best defense against becoming a victim. Everbody who saw/met this recent killer, said he triggered their "sixth-sense" alert. Sometimes people say don't judge others on your first impression. BS! We spend most of our lives learning to do so and 90%+ of the time we are right. Trust your instincts, and don't second guess them until you are clear of the situation. Don't get conned into letting your guard down by a few minutes of pleasant converstation. There was a reason you were suspicious - remember?

As to several sympathetic posts here on WB regarding homeless persons: These are not stray cats that need a warm bowl of milk. At minimum they need a job, and most need psychiatic care, neither of which you can give them. If you feel they need ministering and compassion, report them to authorities so they may be led to the nearest church by guys with badges. Don't put yourself at increased risk trying to be a good Samaritan to these people, save your altruism for injured hikers. There's a reason most of these people are homeless given the amount of public assistance in place - they behave unpredictably and irrationally.

The choice to carry a firearm, within legal limits, is purely a personal one. If you weigh the positive vs negative aspects of carrying, and choose to take on the responsibility that comes with choosing to carry, it may very well make a difference in your survival if attacked. But neither side here can choose what is the appropriate decision for others. Those whose philosophical and political viewpoints persuade them not to carry, should be equally respectful of those who choose to carry weapons to aid in their ability to defend themselves.

[Bulldawg]

I think it's dumb to carry a firearm on the Appalachian Trail.

That said, do you think a perperpetrator would harass a potential victim if she/he were visibly packing a big can of pepper spray or a pistol?

A concealed weapon would have done nothing to deter such a perp. But a potential victim carrying visible defense items, like sticks, poles, pepper spray or a pistol would almost certainly be quickly dismissed as an easy target by an attacker. Not getting into a vehicle with a total stanger helps prevent becoming a victim, too.

No judgement call here -- just making a point.

That being said, what would be your perception if you rolled into a shelter one afternoon and saw me there with my pistol visible dangling from my left shoulder under my arm? Would you be offended or would you be scared and move on? Or would you ask me why I was carrying? Or would you rather not know I had my pistol, that I had it under my pants on my ankle or something? Just wondering.

[rafe]

Trlhiker, do predators never approach from behind? Do you have eyes in the back of your head? A predator with a gun can strike while being completely unobserved.

[earlyriser26]

Unfortunately, there is very little that can be done if you are hiking alone. A crimal by definition is prepared. you are not. Unless you have a gun drawn you can be taken and who wants to hike like that? If you are a female some saftey can be found in groups, but weapons are unlikely to help you. I am glad to me a male and not face the extra burden women have. It is so unfair not to be able to hike alone without worrying about the next sociopath on the trail.

[dessertrat]

Unfortunately, there is very little that can be done if you are hiking alone. A crimal by definition is prepared. you are not. Unless you have a gun drawn you can be taken and who wants to hike like that? If you are a female some saftey can be found in groups, but weapons are unlikely to help you. I am glad to me a male and not face the extra burden women have. It is so unfair not to be able to hike alone without worrying about the next sociopath on the trail.

The good thing is that they are almost never very far down the trail. They are usually too lazy to hike very far from a road, and part of getting away means being able to get to a vehicle, or away from the crime scene, fairly quickly. I would encourage people to be especially careful near roads, but I think once you are more than a couple of hours hike from a road, the odds of a criminal lurking there diminish sharply.

[earlyriser26]

Also, trust your gut instinct. If someone does not feel right get away fast and tell others.

[Darwin again]

That being said, what would be your perception if you rolled into a shelter one afternoon and saw me there with my pistol visible dangling from my left shoulder under my arm? Would you be offended or would you be scared and move on? Or would you ask me why I was carrying? Or would you rather not know I had my pistol, that I had it under my pants on my ankle or something? Just wondering.

Forgive me for thinking that the tone of your post is defensive and argumentative. I'm sure you didn't intend it to be so, so I'm not offended.

That said, I don't care who packs. I trust people with weapons in that kind of situation -- most of the time, if you're not in an urban environment and the carrier isn't in baggy pants, packing heat is an indicator that there is some kind of higher brain function at work. I live in a state that allows it, I grew up around weapons and I'm proficient in their use and care.

What would I say? I'd probably say, "Hello" to you just as I would any other hiker. I don't feel the need to carry a firearm, mostly because I have an array of options for self-defense at my instant disposal. (The first of those weapons is my brain. The others? Well, lets just say you don't have a need to know.)

However, if you brandish a weapon in that same shelter, you might run into a problem of some undetermined kind. Since you asked.

[take-a-knee]

I often carry a small .380 automatic concealed. It's usually in my right hand jacket pocket, and if not, in my right front pants pocket when I'm not wearing a jacket. It's in my sleeping bag at night if I'm carrying it while hiking(and just FWIW, I don't ALWAYS carry). I don't carry it in a place it would be useless, such as in my pack, etc. And I can honestly access it in seconds without fumbling.

Here's the reality though. If you aren't somehow alerted to danger prior to being attacked, it will be difficult to respond regardless if you're armed or not. If a guy hides behind a rock and takes you out as you pass, you're in deep doo-doo. If you're sound asleep, reacting successfully to an attacker who is in control of the situation is incredibly unlikely. If someone really wants to kill you that badly, and they have any degree of intelligence, you are most likely gonna die. They are gonna get the drop on you whether you're armed or not.

So why carry? Because most criminals DO tend to tip their hand. Most commonly they'll appear out of place/suspicious, doing things that don't fit the context of the situation. Often you don't pick up exactly what it is at the time, but it's usually a combination of appearance, body language, eye contact, hands, etc. But it still puts you on alert. Less commonly they'll be too friendly, say something threatening, act aggressive or even display a weapon in plain view before attacking. Carrying a lethal weapon DOES greatly increase your odds of survivng a violent attack even with limited warning. Attacks against armed persons are much less successful than those against unarmed ones. And obviously, the more weapons and combat shooting training you have, the better.

But weapons aren't the end all of self-defense, situational awareness(aka self-defense awareness) and control are. You are always better off avoiding an attack by any means than you are engaging an attacker in a fight. If gaining/staying in control means avoidance, you do so. Running away remains the most successful human survival strategy of all time. But here's the rub in my situation: I can't run fast or far anymore, nor do I think I would fare very well in hand-to-hand combat, due to several physical injuries in the past. If I'm threatened or attacked, I'm pretty much in for the fight due to these mobility issues. And I want every advantage I can possibly have should such a situation arise. And I will not hesitate to put two into the center of mass of anyone who trys to make me their next victim.

Most criminals attacks center on either money or sex. And one of the best defenses is not to look like an easy victim or draw attention to yourself. Most of the normal warnings apply here. Don't hike alone if you don't have to, if you do, try to stealth through road areas. Stay clear of shelters where locals party or homeless people frequent. Don't display large amounts of money in towns. Don't party hard with total strangers. Keep an eye on your drinks(date rape drugging). Be really careful hitch-hiking. Rides in open bed pick-ups are best, vans(especially with no windows) are the absolute worst. Never, ever, get into any vehicle without seeing who else in inside first. Look to see that the door handles are still attached. If it starts feeling wierd, get the hell away ASAP. Women should be especially wary of "all the usual suspects."

Given the recent incident, what can be said about psycho killers other than the fact that they are out there. Their appearance and demeanor can never be predicted. But like other criminals, they remain opportunists, and being aware of that is our best defense against becoming a victim. Everbody who saw/met this recent killer, said he triggered their "sixth-sense" alert. Sometimes people say don't judge others on your first impression. BS! We spend most of our lives learning to do so and 90%+ of the time we are right. Trust your instincts, and don't second guess them until you are clear of the situation. Don't get conned into letting your guard down by a few minutes of pleasant converstation. There was a reason you were suspicious - remember?

As to several sympathetic posts here on WB regarding homeless persons: These are not stray cats that need a warm bowl of milk. At minimum they need a job, and most need psychiatic care, neither of which you can give them. If you feel they need ministering and compassion, report them to authorities so they may be led to the nearest church by guys with badges. Don't put yourself at increased risk trying to be a good Samaritan to these people, save your altruism for injured hikers. There's a reason most of these people are homeless given the amount of public assistance in place - they behave unpredictably and irrationally.

The choice to carry a firearm, within legal limits, is purely a personal one. If you weigh the positive vs negative aspects of carrying, and choose to take on the responsibility that comes with choosing to carry, it may very well make a difference in your survival if attacked. But neither side here can choose what is the appropriate decision for others. Those whose philosophical and political viewpoints persuade them not to carry, should be equally respectful of those who choose to carry weapons to aid in their ability to defend themselves.

AWESOME POST BUZZARD!

[PhoenixGSU]

Typical knee-jerk reaction to a senseless crime on our turf. For the safety sake of all hikers, please leave the guns at home. Accidents can be just as deadly as senseless crimes.

I'm an NRA certified instructor for rifle and shotgun. I'm NOT the typical Git-r-dun yahoo. A gun is no more dangerous than a rock if its in the hands of the right person.

My last time on the trail I passed a guy carrying a .22 rifle in his pack.

[earlyriser26]

Well said. My favorite phrase, situational awarness.

[ShakeyLeggs]

How about a case of a bad guy taking a gun away from someone and using it against them?

Anyone?

Here ya go:

http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/labels/criminal's%20gun%20taken%20away%20and%20used%20aga inst%20him.html

http://www.thetimesonline.com/articl...5962142003.txt

And here is a goodie;

http://www.spybase.us/taylor.htm

Don't get me wrong I am for guns, I own guns. But I feel that a gun on the trail is more trouble than it is worth. A firearm in the right hands is a great tool for thwarting crime.

[Toolshed]

I often carry a small .380 automatic concealed. It's usually in my right hand jacket pocket, and if not, in my right front pants pocket when I'm not wearing a jacket. It's in my sleeping bag at night if I'm carrying it while hiking(and just FWIW, I don't ALWAYS carry). I don't carry it in a place it would be useless, such as in my pack, etc. And I can honestly access it in seconds without fumbling.

Here's the reality though. If you aren't somehow alerted to danger prior to being attacked, it will be difficult to respond regardless if you're armed or not. If a guy hides behind a rock and takes you out as you pass, you're in deep doo-doo. If you're sound asleep, reacting successfully to an attacker who is in control of the situation is incredibly unlikely. If someone really wants to kill you that badly, and they have any degree of intelligence, you are most likely gonna die. They are gonna get the drop on you whether you're armed or not.

So why carry? Because most criminals DO tend to tip their hand. Most commonly they'll appear out of place/suspicious, doing things that don't fit the context of the situation. Often you don't pick up exactly what it is at the time, but it's usually a combination of appearance, body language, eye contact, hands, etc. But it still puts you on alert. Less commonly they'll be too friendly, say something threatening, act aggressive or even display a weapon in plain view before attacking. Carrying a lethal weapon DOES greatly increase your odds of survivng a violent attack even with limited warning. Attacks against armed persons are much less successful than those against unarmed ones. And obviously, the more weapons and combat shooting training you have, the better.

But weapons aren't the end all of self-defense, situational awareness(aka self-defense awareness) and control are. You are always better off avoiding an attack by any means than you are engaging an attacker in a fight. If gaining/staying in control means avoidance, you do so. Running away remains the most successful human survival strategy of all time. But here's the rub in my situation: I can't run fast or far anymore, nor do I think I would fare very well in hand-to-hand combat, due to several physical injuries in the past. If I'm threatened or attacked, I'm pretty much in for the fight due to these mobility issues. And I want every advantage I can possibly have should such a situation arise. And I will not hesitate to put two into the center of mass of anyone who trys to make me their next victim.

Most criminals attacks center on either money or sex. And one of the best defenses is not to look like an easy victim or draw attention to yourself. Most of the normal warnings apply here. Don't hike alone if you don't have to, if you do, try to stealth through road areas. Stay clear of shelters where locals party or homeless people frequent. Don't display large amounts of money in towns. Don't party hard with total strangers. Keep an eye on your drinks(date rape drugging). Be really careful hitch-hiking. Rides in open bed pick-ups are best, vans(especially with no windows) are the absolute worst. Never, ever, get into any vehicle without seeing who else in inside first. Look to see that the door handles are still attached. If it starts feeling wierd, get the hell away ASAP. Women should be especially wary of "all the usual suspects."

Given the recent incident, what can be said about psycho killers other than the fact that they are out there. Their appearance and demeanor can never be predicted. But like other criminals, they remain opportunists, and being aware of that is our best defense against becoming a victim. Everbody who saw/met this recent killer, said he triggered their "sixth-sense" alert. Sometimes people say don't judge others on your first impression. BS! We spend most of our lives learning to do so and 90%+ of the time we are right. Trust your instincts, and don't second guess them until you are clear of the situation. Don't get conned into letting your guard down by a few minutes of pleasant converstation. There was a reason you were suspicious - remember?

As to several sympathetic posts here on WB regarding homeless persons: These are not stray cats that need a warm bowl of milk. At minimum they need a job, and most need psychiatic care, neither of which you can give them. If you feel they need ministering and compassion, report them to authorities so they may be led to the nearest church by guys with badges. Don't put yourself at increased risk trying to be a good Samaritan to these people, save your altruism for injured hikers. There's a reason most of these people are homeless given the amount of public assistance in place - they behave unpredictably and irrationally.

The choice to carry a firearm, within legal limits, is purely a personal one. If you weigh the positive vs negative aspects of carrying, and choose to take on the responsibility that comes with choosing to carry, it may very well make a difference in your survival if attacked. But neither side here can choose what is the appropriate decision for others. Those whose philosophical and political viewpoints persuade them not to carry, should be equally respectful of those who choose to carry weapons to aid in their ability to defend themselves.

Nicely put 4EB!!!!

[Toolshed]

That being said, what would be your perception if you rolled into a shelter one afternoon and saw me there with my pistol visible dangling from my left shoulder under my arm? Would you be offended or would you be scared and move on? Or would you ask me why I was carrying? Or would you rather not know I had my pistol, that I had it under my pants on my ankle or something? Just wondering.

Wouldn't bother me in the least. We'd probably start talking about different firearms we have had in the past - various FFL dealers we know, what branches in the, military we served in, yada, yada, yada. I would only ask that if my young son was with me, please keep it within your possession while we are there (as I would do the same for you or anybody else - Then again, all responsible gun owners do this.) Odds are, it probably wouldn;t happen as I try not to frequent LT's except for winter.

[NorthCountryWoods]

Here ya go:

http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/labels/criminal's%20gun%20taken%20away%20and%20used%20aga inst%20him.html

http://www.thetimesonline.com/articl...5962142003.txt

And here is a goodie;

http://www.spybase.us/taylor.htm

Don't get me wrong I am for guns, I own guns. But I feel that a gun on the trail is more trouble than it is worth. A firearm in the right hands is a great tool for thwarting crime.

I meant on the trail or in the woods, but since you brought it up....

.....your first link is dead, the second is a rent a cop and the third is a guy selling a dvd about taking guns away. And in that last link a stat it used was "95% of civilians are shot with their own gun", that is a bit of spin. They left out that they are usually shoot themselves or are shot by a spouse...with their own gun.

[rickb]

he choice to carry a firearm, within legal limits, is purely a personal one.

Does anyone else find it ironic that the people who are most interested in packing are those who need protection least? But back to the central question.

My thoughts on this topic would include getting comfortable/used to camping out of sight of the Trail early on, so that you don't feel a "need" to stay at a shelter. If your gut tells you to move on, then move on. This will be easier to do if you have camped well off trail under less stressful circumstances. Most AT violence has been perpetrated at shelters. (This is probably more importantant to SOBOs and other who are not walking with the herd).

Having a tent or hammock that doesn't shout "here I am in bright yellow" isn't a bad a bad either.

Don't post your picture on a web page unless you are old, fat and bald. Also probably not a good idea to use "Cheater's Dancer" as a trail name if you don't fit that profile.

If a woman does have concern walking in a particular area, travel with two others. Records show that camping at a shelter with a single companion (male of female) is no guarantee of safety.

When hitchhiking, don't ever get in a car if your gut even whispers not to.

Don't walk with fear, but don't be naive either. Trust you gut.

[NorthCountryWoods]

Does anyone else find it ironic that the people who are most interested in packing are those who need protection least? But back to the central question.

Does anyone find it ironic that those afraid of law abiding citizens packing heat, ridicule them for being afraid of criminals?

[turtle fast]

Would it work to act crazier than the crazy person that you ran into? Serious question.....I have done it once when I was approached by a whacked out crack addict with I believe an intent to get money from me....I talked loudlly jibberish, smelled my armpits and was flailing my arms yelling jibberish into the sky googley eyed when I was in college....it worked the guy just turned around!